Announcement Concerning Textures and Models Created by DisgruntledGoat

[DisgruntledGoat]

From June 2015:

Hello DisgruntledGoat, hope all is well!
I come with one question from two angles of incidence, concerning permission to your Arnor units.

You have made clear the Easterlings require permission to be used in any manner, and as local moderator I do wonder if it is exclusive for those units, or if the meaning is it include the Arnor units as well, so I know when to react or not.
It seems logical you intend all your created content in TATW but could also be interpeted as concerning just the Easterlings in question, so want to clear that out.

(...)

best regards
Ngugi

No issues from me, people are free to use anything and everything of mine in which ever way they choose.

~~~

Previous rules

The textures and models found in Third Age: Total War used for the Easterling faction are the intellectual property of their creator DisgruntledGoat. These models and textures were created for the sole use of the Third Age mod and specifically for the official development team and King Kong. As their creator I have the final say in which way they may be used and released.

To maintain the integrity of the work, as is a fundemental right given to any creator of intellectual property, I am forbiding their use in any mod other than the official TATW release. This means sub mods for TATW and other mods not in the LotR genre may not use the material unless permission is expressly given by their creator, DisgruntledGoat.

The TWC recognizes the rights of the modders to protect their modding materials and will enforce the rules of intellectual property rights. Any mods that are posted for public consumption that contains my textures OR models that did not have my written permission will be reported to the administration.

Regards,

DisgruntledGoat

Can a mod please sticky this.

[JonSnow]

Sounds clear enough, sticky would indeed be helpful.

[Jaguar6]

So would you prefer a PM or would you like me to ask you here

[Kolaris8472]

To what is he referring?

The sub-mod that changed their clothes from brown to red?

[JonSnow]

To what is he referring?

The sub-mod that changed their clothes from brown to red?

I'm pretty sure any mod that alters his units and/or changes how they will appear in any way (battle map and/or campaign map. Which means I think RR and RC now needs permission? In which case I'll ask for PB unless of course that is not counted in the restrictions.

[DisgruntledGoat]

So would you prefer a PM or would you like me to ask you here

Please PM me so that the discussion can remain private. I can also keep a better record of it.

This isn't a response to any single mod. Just a response to a general feeling I have towards my work and its artistic integrity. Now that mods are starting to spring up that would like to use my work as a basis, work that I considered my highest achievement to date, I would like to have a say in how it is used, altered and disseminated.

This only applies to the art work (texture files and models).

[Beorn]

You're clear, DG. I hope that everyone will ask your permission...

[AmiR TimuR]

Bad news. I would like to see more Loke units with your great skins at submods... For example two handed saber man.

I hope you will give permission.

[Radboud]

Bad news. I would like to see more Loke units with your great skins at submods... For example two handed saber man.

I hope you will give permission.

Then PM him or wait for the second release of TATW ?

[Space Voyager]

Can a mod please sticky this.

And close, too. No use posting here, DG is quite clear in the original post.

[AmiR TimuR]

Then PM him or wait for the second release of TATW ?

I am not doing this mod, I am just supporter and idea creator

I wish D.G. would make a plenty of new rhun soldiers at 2nd release but I don't think that he will touch rhun for now. He will be busy with eriador i think

[Lap]

I'm actually pretty confused about the actual purpose of this. Everyone knows that doing something like taking your models/textures and releasing it as an addon to Stainless Steel or some other mod/game would clearly hurt the uniqueness of your work and also make it harder to find the original author. That logic doesn't really work for submods though.

From what I'm understanding here you are saying that it would be illegal to take one of your textures and release a submod with a handlebar mustache or something on it. By similar logic this would infer that making complete retextures of any unit you made the model for, also illegal, since they would be put on top of your model.

Your work is officially part of the mod and any modifications to it would be instantly recognizable as modifications of your original work (referring specifically to TATW submods here).

This seems like the equivalent of a game company saying that only total conversions are allowed and not any lesser mods (which pretty much would eliminate this whole section of the forums as all submods use TATW's base). I do not understand the reasoning for this or how your art is hurt if someone decides to release a pink texture alternative that is properly credited as such.

[DisgruntledGoat]

Theres this thing called Moral Rights, its part of international copyright law. CA has the right, if they so choose, to shut down modding. Just as you have explained it. I reserve the right to maintain the integrity of my artistic creations, ensuring that the work is not disseminated or altered in a way that I do not approve. Its not for you to understand why it would hurt me to see someone BUTCHER my work. All that matters is you know that I am well within the forums rules to reserve this right and well within the law.

[Lap]

Still need clarification on whether this would include doing a 100% original texture that was a replacement for yours or if you are simply referring to taking your textures or models and changing them slightly. Without knowing your actual reasoning here I don't really know exactly where the line is and if you are considering each individual piece separately as not to be changed, or them all together. It is a legitimate question considering how mods are simply content built on previous content.

I know it's hard to properly interpret tone in written text, but your first sentence of your response seems rude for me simply asking your reasoning. My post wasn't an accusatory "How do you have that right!?", it was on "Why are you choosing to invoke that right?". The negative reaction from fans is hugely reduced if some sane reason is given. You don't have to give one, but it's not very good PR.

Rights holders would have a pretty clear reason to shut down this whole mod. Namely that it's better than any of the games they've spent millions producing and is bad competition. It would be devastating, but it would be understandable. With a free mod it's harder for players to come up with a reason not to have submods. Players are hoping that the purpose of the mod was to create an enjoyable experience for people, though I know some mods are made simply for the developers first, and then the public. Kong might have even said that was the case for this mod. Regardless, players are going to want to assume the altruistic option (and many go far enough to say it was made for them individually ). So the question in their mind becomes "Why would you not want to have the most people benefit from your work as possible?" If they can't really think of a logical option and none was given then their altruistic assumption does a 180 and they'll start making their own largely negative assumptions (creator has god complex, is a jerk, hates me personally, whatever).

Unfortunately, whether it is the actual intent or not, disallowing modification sends the message "It is perfect the way I made it and no improvements can be made." I have a feeling that if something was good enough you'd give it the OK, but this is still the impression that gets sent.

I've been producing creative works online for the last decade and I've experienced the worst, with my material being used without permission, for profit. It was also mirrored in many other places, but in those places credit was given and no profit was being made. It wasn't right that my work was replicated, but considering the goal was for people to benefit from it I'm glad my material was worthy enough to be copied and that many people were able to benefit from it. In a nonprofit situation where credit is given I simply can't find a reason to be concerned. Half of deriviates just make the original look better anyways .

If this is how it's going to be wouldn't it just be better to have one sticky that says each and every team member and which ones are denying modification of their work. There's about fifteenish team members (and growing) and it seems like it could get mighty crowded with stickies.

Also, since everything you said is in the main post applies to any work created by anyone for pretty much anything, why is it focusing on your work specifically? This seems like it would be better off just putting a general reminder for everything in the mod...unless the purpose of your post was basically to tell people that you are entirely opposed to anyone modifying your work so they might as well not ask. That at least would be something people wouldn't immediately assume.

Personally, I don't plan on modifying your work and I think you did an amazing job. I'm just concerned about the message this is sending to submodders. Everything in this mod is a product of someone's and that essentially makes every submod need to track down permissions just to do things like rebalance stats and scripts. Not every modification here starts out amazing right away. Many have to work their way to glory, but it becomes very hard to do that when you can't release your product here for feedback because authors are denying use of the main source material. The harm to other modders and players is far greater than possible harm to the creator, especially when these releases are confined to this specific board. If this gets to the point where every mod needs to be posted with a copy of the written permission it is going to be very cumbersome and have unforseen consequences. If something happened where the Real Combat team got sent to prison or something and couldn't talk to us their mod could never be maintained since we wouldn't have written permission. An extreme axample, but people do move or simply disappear from the internet.

I think that within the actual TATW cmmunity there needs to be an open environment that fosters modifications and creations. Considering that your models and textures are actually property of New Line Cinema and possibly other rights holders the only message that's being sent is "It's OK for me to use this guys intellectual IP, but just as long as he doesn't find out."

[Oddball_E8]

oh lighten up guys...

hes not saying that noone will ever be allowed to change anything on the models and textures hes made...

he just wants final say in what people can do with the stuff hes created...
(and hopefully he will be very lenient about it)

[Lap]

oh lighten up guys...

hes not saying that noone will ever be allowed to change anything on the models and textures hes made...

he just wants final say in what people can do with the stuff hes created...
(and hopefully he will be very lenient about it)

As I brought up, these same rights apply to all material made by anyone. So everything in this mod is protected by the rights of the right's holder. As Disgruntled's message is the only one sticked here, it is inferring (intentional or not) that everyone else on the team has absolutely no concern on how their material is used, or that Disgruntled specifically will not allow modifications to his work for any reason.

I don't mean to direct 100% of all this specifically at Disgruntled. This is kind of like a case going to the most supreme court of a country. There are questions and concerns regarding the implications of an interpretation of something (and no I'm not trying to ask about whether rights holders should have rights to their work). More global questions will be answered relevant to all TATW modding by examining this one posting.

[marceror]

To maintain the integrity of the work, as is a fundemental right given to any creator of intellectual property, I am forbiding their use in any mod other than the official TATW release. This means sub mods for TATW and other mods not in the LotR genre may not use the material unless permission is expressly given by their creator, DisgruntledGoat.

To make sure I understand where you're coming from, it sounds like any unofficial mod, whether it touches your work or not, needs to have your permission to include Rhun. Or more to the point, let's say someone wants to create a mod that changes the stats in the edu... if someone doesn't get your permission, are you expecting that Rhun would be removed from the mod altogether?

That's what the above seems to indicate, but perhaps this isn't actually what you mean. Your later post about this only applying to "models and textures" seems to possibly indicate otherwise.

[Space Voyager]

needs to have your permission to include Rhun.

Don't intentionally try to misunderstand, you may have enough problems understanding without intent...

You can create your own modification based on Tolkien if you wish, with all factions you can imagine, but if you want to use the ART, CREATED BY DG, ask him if that is ok.

Is that really so hard to dig?!

[Radboud]

To make a long story short : PM him if you want to use it.

Maybe a mod should close this ?

[AmiR TimuR]

I think it is just killing the will of people who want to do something. It is just fan made mod, it is not necessary to limit it IMO. and everyone is not professional like D.G. and although they do worse work than D.G. we should respect, because they gave time for it.

In any case modeller and skinner is not so much at this forum and we should support them instead of impeding...