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Thread: Cultural looting, and the Parthenon Marbles

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    Garbarsardar's Avatar Et Slot i et slot
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    The purpose of this topic is to discuss the ethics surrounding the colonial spoils or “acquisitions”, and what their fate should be. As many countries have “acquired”, what can be perceived as parts of the cultural and artistic inheritance of many other countries, in more or less dubious ways, there is absolutely no reason for nation bashing. The use of the specific example is a choice of Garb. Because of his familiarity with the issue.

    At the UNESCO World Conference on Cultural Policies in Mexico of 1982 a vote on a resolution calling for the return of the Parthenon marbles and their reincorporation on the building was passed. In October 1983 a formal bilateral request for the return was made by the Greek Government to the British Government- the first ever made. Following discussion with the Director and Trustees of the British Museum, this request was formally rejected by the British Government in April 1984. It was followed in September by a further submission of a claim through UNESCO, which was similarly rejected in 1985, after consultation with the British Museum. Successive British governments have held the position that this is a matter for the Museum's Trustees who are the legal owners of the Parthenon Sculptures.

    But let us go 200 years back and follow the fate of the marbles

    The story begins with a deal that Elgin struck in 1801. The Earl of Elgin, a passionate amateur collector of antiquities, had proposed himself for the post of British ambassador to Turkey's Ottoman Empire because of his health. He had syphilis, a disease which was to leave him as distressingly noseless as many of the chipped statues he collected, and the doctors recommended a warm climate.

    Europe was in the grip of the Romantic revival, and he was obsessively keen to record and, if possible, obtain as many of the ancient Greek treasures now in the uncaring care of Turkey. His purpose, he wrote, was to improve the modern art of Great Britain by permitting its artists to see firsthand the greatest examples of sculpture ever made.

    Ruling a wide swath of the ancient world, the potentates of Istanbul were pleased to accept bribes, gifts, money and munitions from the warring countries of England and France. In return, they gave permission to record, then sketch, then dismantle, and finally, transport the monuments and sculptures by earlier inhabitants of the empire they now ruled. They regarded the newfound passion of the European aristocracy and artists for ancient Greek artifacts as faintly ludicrous. But if the English and the French wanted to compete in carting those long-neglected relics halfway round the world, let them.

    So it was that Elgin (called "Eggy" by his vivacious young bride) was able to wheedle and buy permission to collect any chunks of the Parthenon crowning Athens' Acropolis that had crashed to the ground, and, he airily assumed, any more that might possibly fall down in the future.

    Built between 447 and 432 B.C., the Parthenon was a vast building masterminded by the Athenian statesman Pericles. Over the years, the Acropolis had many times been a battleground. In 1687 a Turkish powder magazine in the temple exploded after a direct hit by besieging Venetians, destroying a large part of it. The rubble was used as building material and rifled by souvenir hunters. All that was left intact of the three-dimensional art that had filled the building was part of the frieze and metopes (sculpted pictures) and some pediment sculptures.

    Elgin set about dismantling 274 feet of the original 524-foot frieze, 15 of the metopes and 17 figures from the pediments. They ultimately filled over 100 large packing cases. That some of the best examples of Phidias' art broke into fragments while being lowered to the ground was unfortunate, but that did not stop Elgin from squirreling up the bits.

    The treasures' subsequent adventures included sinking in shipwrecks, heavy-handed salvaging, being possessed by and rescued from Napoleon's fleet, and then lying, dispersed and neglected -- for many years awaiting transportation to London.

    Elgin himself suffered imprisonment in France, the infidelity and divorce of his countess, worsening health and near-bankruptcy caused by the enormous cost of dismantling, transporting and storing 120 tons of marbles, which were finally piled up in the back garden of a house at the corner of Piccadilly and Park Lane.

    Most distressing for Elgin was finding that his reputation had become that of a despoiler of an ancient civilization. His detractors were led by the mad, bad Lord Byron, whose hand probably carved on the Acropolis the lines, "Quod Non Fecerunt Gothi, Fecerunt Scoti" -- "What the Goths spared, the Scots have destroyed."

    But Napoleon met his Waterloo, and the loot that he had collected for the Louvre was sent back: The four horses from St. Mark's to Venice, Rubens' "Descent from the Cross" to Antwerp, the Medici Venus to Florence. And so, at last, victorious England was able to consider buying the Parthenon Marbles from Lord Elgin.

    Elgin claimed that he personally had spent 62,440 pounds on bribes, workmen, transportation and storage -- roughly $10 million at today's prices -- but the best offer a government committee could come up with was 35,000 pounds. Reluctantly, he took it, and returned to Scotland.

    The British government handed the marbles over to the British Museum for safekeeping and preservation, but they soon fell victim to the misguided Romantic notion that all Greek art should be pristine white. In fact, the Parthenon Marbles were probably brightly painted when new and were certainly dark brown when removed by Elgin (although how much of that was grime and pollution is debatable). Nor did the Victorians like their sculptures incomplete: If noses, arms and genitalia had been chipped off, new ones were often stuck on.

    Over the next century, the golden patina of the Elgin Marbles was scrubbed whiter and whiter until the final desecration, by order of Sir Joseph (later Baron) Duveen. The picture dealer had made millions of dollars selling often dubious and touched-up old masters to the new rich of the United States, and was now busily buying honors for himself. In 1928 he offered to build a new gallery for the British Museum to house the Elgin Marbles -- on condition that they were made more attractive to the public (and reflected more glory on himself).

    On his orders, paid masons attacked the marbles with metal tools leaving them whiter than white but -- according to the modern Greeks -- irreparably harmed. Dr. R.D. Barnett, then the museum's keeper of Western Asiatic antiquities, wrote a suppressed memo detailing his shock at seeing a laborer "day after day using hammer and chisel and wire brushes."

    So damaged were the Elgin Marbles that they were placed behind barriers -- still there today -- so that the public could not get close enough to see the ravages. And serious scholars have always resented the way Duveen arranged them around the sides of his gallery, when they were meant to be seen as a continuous narrative as they were approached and circled.

    In Elgin's day, the marbles were exhaustively studied by working artists, who had the benefit of naked models in poses echoing those of the statues. Today they are high on tourist lists and are, indeed, the very best value in London, as entry to the museum is free.

    Oddly, for a noncommercial institution, the British Museum allows champagne and gourmet food parties in the gallery in return for high rental fees. The marbles have become a prized setting for corporate hospitality parties. These parties have got the Museum into more hot water, as guests are even permitted to be photographed in Ancient Greek fancy dress with the Elgin Marbles as a decorative background.

    Sir Kenneth Alexander, a former trustee of the National Museum of Scotland, describes this as a "crass misuse of one of the world's greatest antiquities." Andrew Dismore, a Greek-speaking member of Parliament, says: "I am frankly dismayed at the attitude of the museum. What are we going to have next? Themed orgies in the Roman galleries?"

    A museum publicist declared: "I am amazed that there should be any reaction to the museum holding dinners and receptions there. Everybody does it now."

    At a symposium arranged by the museum to placate Greek activists in December, an official confessed for the first time that, "The way Duveen went about cleaning the sculptures was a scandal, and the way the museum tried and failed to cover it up was a scandal."

    "The British Museum is not infallible; it is not the pope," admitted Dr. Ian Jenkins, deputy keeper of Greek and Roman antiquities. "Its history has been a series of good intentions marred by the occasional cock-up: The cleaning was such a cock-up."



    Mark O'Neill, director of Glasgow Museums, who has returned the Ghost Dance Shirt originally taken from the corpse of a Sioux warrior at the Battle of Wounded Knee, believes it could be as much as 10 percent for museums with major ethnographic collections: "It's all about values and ethics. A shirt that was ripped off the body of a dead Sioux had no business in our collection."

    The looting of treasures has been going on at least since Biblical times. It is recorded in Chapter 52 of the Book of Jeremiah that "the Chaldaeans broke up the bronze pillars from the Temple of the Lord, the wheeled stands and the bronze sea that were in the Temple of Yahweh, and took all the bronze away to Babylon."

    More recently, in World War II, Germany plundered 427 museums in the Soviet Union, taking the pick of them to Berlin. The National Gallery of Art in Washington coveted 202 paintings salvaged from the wreckage of Germany and "liberated" some of them. The decision was supported by Francis Henry Taylor, director of the Metropolitan Museum, who opined, "The American people have earned the right in this war to such compensation if they choose to take it."

    American archive officers on the spot demurred. In the Wiesbaden Manifesto, they stated that "the transportation of these works to America establishes a precedent which is neither morally tenable nor trustworthy." President Truman agreed, and all the art taken to the United States for "safeguarding" was subsequently returned.

    So should the British museum return the marbles?

    List of sources:
    on the history of the marbles
    on Elgin
    on the present state
    the view of the BM

  2. #2

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    Good research. Seeing the background and the present use of the marble I think it should be returned. It's kinda disrespectful to history how they just stick it in a room and let guests take pictures of themselves next to it like its some kinda side show freak.
    siggy!

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    Sir Kenneth Alexander, a former trustee of the National Museum of Scotland, describes this as a "crass misuse of one of the world's greatest antiquities." Andrew Dismore, a Greek-speaking member of Parliament, says: "I am frankly dismayed at the attitude of the museum. What are we going to have next? Themed orgies in the Roman galleries
    Sounds cool to me.


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    Garbarsardar's Avatar Et Slot i et slot
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    Sounds cool to me.
    Not only they looted our cultural inheritance, now they want to loot our spiritual one.
    Starting with Plato's symposium, the orgy is an integral part of our ethics and morality.
    One more reason for the return of the "acquisitions". :angry *wink*

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    Bovril's Avatar Primicerius
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    What a sticky issue this is.
    The marbles were aquired legally, but only on the authority of an (illegally?) occupying power. The original owner of the marbles, the Polis of Athens no longer exists. There is little continuity (culturally, geneologically, historically etc) between the current inhabitants of Athens and the classical inhabitants of the city. And so on and so forth.

    What criteria should we use then to decide where the marbles should be. Well, we could use a legalistic one, in which case they would probably stay where they are. Or we could ask where the most people are going to get to see them and get the most most benefit from them, in which case they would again stay where they are, since the amount of people visiting London is far higher than those visiting Athens, and also Athens allready has a wealth of classical greek art and architecture. Or we could ask whose cultural heritage they are part of in which case the answer could be no one's since current greek culture is so far removed from ancient greek culture(if such a unified thing can genuinely be said to exist; we wouldn't say there was at present a single culture of the English speaking world), but we could also argue that since modern greeks self identify with the region's ancient inhabitants they are their cultural decendants. However, that would imply that the greeks also have rights to the archaeology and art of classical western turkey, which seems problematic, and the Turks in turn could lay claim to the medieval art and architecture of parts of Iran and Iraq.

    It seems to me that the Greek argument boils down to: give it to us because we want it.

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    Garbarsardar's Avatar Et Slot i et slot
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    What a simple issue this is.
    1. The legalistic argument was used by the director of the MMA when US got the loot from the Soviet Museums. These were later returned. The real issue: If the British museum agrees to the return of the loot, in a few years there will not be a British museum because everything there is looted.
    2.The argument about where most people want to see something: Bring Stonehenge to Piccadily square. Much more convenient location, good transport, lots of facilities.
    3. The argument on people profiting from the view: this is the hallway where the marbles reside now


    and this is the new museum:



    Note: the marbles were an integral part of the Acropole. Now half of the Acropole is in Athens and the other half in the BM. Should we also send the part that Elgin could not loot to the BM so more people can profit?

    4. Greece has enough archaeological wealth: so we should share with those who have none. Is that a meta-communist kind of argument? :lol

    5. Whose cultural heritage are the marbles. Probably not of modern Greeks.Certainly not of the English. Still the Greeks who speak a language closer to ancient Greek than anybody elses, are taught extensively Ancient greek philosophy, poetry and language in shcools, and can see the Acropole looted from their windows, could have a small claim on this.

    6. The return of the marbles will ignite multiple claims on art and architecture of other countries. How fallacious! We Greeks are well aware of our (disputed) inheritance. But we like the things in their natural place, like Ephesus in Ephesus, Alexandreia in Alexandreia etc... Evry year thousands of greek tourists visit the sites in Turkey, we are very happy to see the temples there and not cut to pieces in a dark hallway thank you very much. And there was never a hint of a claim about this.

    It seems to me that the British Museum hangs too dearly on the good ol' colonial past.

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    @Bovril
    You did not only rob us now you say you had every right to do so. Dude you have some nerve dont ya.
    As for our disputed inheritance, the connection between modern and ancient greeks has more than once been proved, its you foreigners who forget it, when it suites you of course.

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    maybe the british should stop being stuck up for once and give it back or sell it back at the price for which they bought it. Not to be a British basher but they haven't been the most willing people to relinquish things through out history.
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    Bovril's Avatar Primicerius
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    I'd like to see some evidence for the claim that the marbles were looted, rather than legally aquired from the internationally recognised sovereign government of the time.
    If there is none, then any appeal is basically a moralistic one. Those in favour of moving the marbles believe that the BM has a moral duty to give the marbles to the Greek government. 'Because thats where they belong' is not really a vallid moral argument, besides, I could equally well argue that they 'belong' in the museum that owns them, or in the place that, despite damaging them, has ensured at least their survival. So what is the reasoned moral argument for them sitting in a museum in Athens rather than one in London?

  10. #10

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    @Bovril
    Look man dont try to justify the unjustifiable, every good thief in the world say what you said.
    You know it was our ancestors that created them, not yours. Like it or not the marbles are part of our GREEK legacy and they belong (or should belong) to us, not you.
    As for Elgin's legal aquisition of the marbles there is also much dispute over that. You want an example: it is common knowledge that Elgin bribed corrupted officials to overlook while he took our treasures.
    So bridery what a legal and worldwide accepted legal way of getting what you want eh!
    Oh! and legitimate governor a cruel tyrant who enslaved the truly legitimate owners of these lands and kept them as slaves for 400 years while robbing them from everything they had. Dude COME ON!

  11. #11
    Epirote
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    What kind of man aproaches Parthenon with hammers and dynamite to take the marbles.

    No more Comments.

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    I'd like to see some evidence for the claim that the marbles were looted, rather than legally aquired from the internationally recognised sovereign government of the time.
    The guy who LOOTED the marbles had a permission to carry isolated fallen pieces, not to dismantle it and take whatever he wished home. And he did not did it out of some altruistic notion to preserve the pieces either as i've seen some englishmen say. Some of the pieces you can see on the british museum were sawed off in the most barbaric way. Regarding art the 19th century british were like a band of sands locusts. Stopped at nothing and stripped the land bare.

    Or we could ask where the most people are going to get to see them and get the most most benefit from them, in which case they would again stay where they are,
    What a crappy argument. Why don't you send them to china?

    It seems to me that the Greek argument boils down to: give it to us because we want it.
    They have explained their reasons time and time again. I've yet to see a convincing argument on why is the british museum entitled to keep STOLEN pieces. Yes that's right, STOLEN. The dude had absolutely no permit to take the large majority of that collection and even if he had a permit from the turks, what moral grounds justify them as keepers of that heritage?

    The return of the marbles will ignite multiple claims on art and architecture of other countries.
    I see no problem with that, return the stuff you stole from egypt too while you are at it. And those bronze statues on Benin which you got after you massacred the guys guarding them.


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    Wow im not alone in this.

    @Portuguese Rebel
    @Epirote
    GREAT POINTS

    @Bovril
    Why dont you try to give an answer in these?

  14. #14
    Epirote
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    Bovril

    You play with the words.
    But you know that the Parthenon was desicrated and looted in the most despicable way .
    But I undestand the English objection not to return the marbles.
    If you take the Greek antiqueties away from the British museum (I say only the Greek) then there is no British museum left to visit.

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    Bovril's Avatar Primicerius
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    First of all, I think we can probably agree that the historical mistreatment of the marbles is fairly irrelevant since it has no bearing on their present condition and ignores the fact that had they remained where they were they wouldn't be around today. It is also the case that greeks deliberately bamaged them a lot more than the British ever did, especially when the parthenon was converted into a church.

    You guys seem to think the legal argument is persuasive so I'll concentrate on that.

    Point one: The Turks had no authority to sell the marbles.
    Presumeable the argument would be that if one power conquers the teritory of another power (in this case the turkish empire conquering the byzantine empire) they have no claim to it. Ok, thats all well and good in principle but it misunderstands the way in which political units have traditionally been formed. It like saying that the U.S. government has no right to sell almost any of its public land since it was conquered from the people who lived there, or like saying the the French government has no right to sell the public land around strasbourg since that was also taken by force. Since were talking legalistically, land and art come under the same catorgory; property. The Truks were the recognised soverigns in Athens at the time, and the owners of the marbles with every right to sell them.

    Point two: Elgin took more than he was allowed.
    It is claimed by some that the Elgin took more of the marbles than he was allowed. No doubt this debate will not be resolved quickely, but it is worth bearing in mind that Elgin took 10 years to remove the marbles, and he was not stopped. If he was so clearly overstepping the mark, why was this? It is true that he used bribes to smooth the passage of his work, but in an inherantly corupt empire, this is hardly a legal argument. The modern conception of bribery didn't even exist and payments to officials were the way in which officials got their saleries. Indeed, up untill quite recently (when the government outlawed it) BP had a fund for bribing oficials in Nigeria as a matter of course. Even if Elgin was stealing it was from the Turkish government, rather than the greeks.


    Comparisons with objects that were irrefuteably stolen or pilaged are drawn for purely emotive reasons, and have no place in this particular debate. I don't deny that the brits did alot of awful things during the imperialisic period (but hell, the greeks certainly were'nt much better&#33 but the general guilt of imperialism cannot be used to prize a legitimately aquired object (which incidently is a product and celebration of imperialism itself) away from its owners. If you think it was aquired illegitimately either explain how it could have been more legitimately aquaired at the time (and be realistic) or explain why its removal was never legitimate in a legal, rather than patriotic or mora, sense.

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    Garbarsardar's Avatar Et Slot i et slot
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    Since english is not my first-or second language I will have to profit from the dictionnary:

    moral:1. Of or concerned with the judgment of the goodness or badness of human action and character: moral scrutiny; a moral quandary. 2. Teaching or exhibiting goodness or correctness of character and behavior: a moral lesson. 3. Conforming to standards of what is right or just in behavior; virtuous: a moral life. 4. Arising from conscience or the sense of right and wrong: a moral obligation. 5. Having psychological rather than physical or tangible effects: a moral victory; moral support. 6. Based on strong likelihood or firm conviction, rather than on the actual evidence: a moral certainty.
    moralistic:1. Characterized by or displaying a concern with morality. 2. Marked by a narrow-minded morality.
    legal:1. Of, relating to, or concerned with law: legal papers. 2a. Authorized by or based on law: a legal right. b. Established by law; statutory: the legal owner. 3. In conformity with or permitted by law: legal business operations. 4. Recognized or enforced by law rather than by equity. 5. In terms of or created by the law: a legal offense. 6. Applicable to or characteristic of attorneys or their profession.
    Legalistic:1. Strict, literal adherence to the law or to a particular code, as of religion or morality. 2. A legal word, expression, or rule.

    Now if I understand correctly the argument is that the BM has a legal right to the loot, while the greek interest is moralistic.
    I will simply say that the BM is hiding behind a legalistic argument, to avoid confronting a moral issue.
    Because what else but a legalistic argument is all the discussion about papers, sovereign governments, licences and the rest. The truth is that a greedy noseless individual tore part of an archaeological site for profit, and some greedy bureaucrats keep the loot for profit.
    There is no argument to be won or lost here, and all the trolling in the world will not offer moral justification to a crime. And I can see the troll very clearly.
    So, lets keep our cool the points have been made, and anyone can leave this thread taking with him a clear opinion about the reasons motives and morality of all involved.
    Relax and have a good time
    :happy

  17. #17
    Epirote
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    So if I go and buy some Babylonian antiqueties in Iraq makes me legitimate.

    1)with written permition of US Army and Iraqi officials
    Bovril (It is true that he used bribes to smooth the passage of his work, but in an inherantly corupt empire, this is hardly a legal argument. The modern conception of bribery didn't even exist and payments to officials were the way in which officials got their saleries.)

    2)US army is responisple for Iraqi soveriginty
    Bovril (The Turks were the recognised soverigns in Athens at the time, and the owners of the marbles with every right to sell them.)

    3)since Assyrian and Persian do not exist there then there is no one to nag about the sale.
    Bovril (The original owner of the marbles, the Polis of Athens no longer exists. There is little continuity (culturally, geneologically, historically etc) between the current inhabitants of Athens and the classical inhabitants of the city.)

    4)all those Iraqi guerilla would propably damage them so i correctly took them away.
    Bovril (I could equally well argue that they 'belong' in the museum that owns them, or in the place that, despite damaging them, has ensured at least their survival. So what is the reasoned moral argument for them sitting in a museum in Athens rather than one in London?)

    5)I am American British so i don`t give a damn.

    If that`s your line of thinking I am wasting my time.

  18. #18

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    Bovril once again you play with the words as Epirote said. You stick to the letter of the law because it suites you and ditch the essense. You defend your country's crime with such stubborness using even the most outrageous arguements that i know nobody could convince you for nothing, if there are many like you back in England then our efforts to regain the marbles are doomed. So and before i depart from this conversation i will tell you this, for you the marbles are just money or another trophy, a momento of hypocrisy and thievery for us greeks the marbles mean much more, i remember the first time i went to Acropolis, i can never forget how i felt, have you ever gone to Acropolis Bovril? and even if you had the nerve to go dared you feel anything more than shame? i doubt it.

  19. #19
    Epirote
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    So if I go and buy some Babylonian antiqueties in Iraq makes me legitimate.

    1)with written permition of US Army and Iraqi officials
    Bovril (It is true that he used bribes to smooth the passage of his work, but in an inherantly corupt empire, this is hardly a legal argument. The modern conception of bribery didn't even exist and payments to officials were the way in which officials got their saleries.)

    2)US army is responisple for Iraqi soveriginty
    Bovril (The Turks were the recognised soverigns in Athens at the time, and the owners of the marbles with every right to sell them.)

    3)since Assyrian and Persian do not exist there then there is no one to nag about the sale.
    Bovril (The original owner of the marbles, the Polis of Athens no longer exists. There is little continuity (culturally, geneologically, historically etc) between the current inhabitants of Athens and the classical inhabitants of the city.)

    4)all those Iraqi guerilla would propably damage them so i correctly took them away.
    Bovril (I could equally well argue that they 'belong' in the museum that owns them, or in the place that, despite damaging them, has ensured at least their survival. So what is the reasoned moral argument for them sitting in a museum in Athens rather than one in London?)

    5)I am American British so i don`t give a damn.

    If that`s your line of thinking I am wasting my time.

  20. #20
    Bovril's Avatar Primicerius
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    If you're going to discuss morality, engaging in personal attacks against someone who simply doesn't share your opinion won't strengthen your case.

    If you think the BM conceeds the moral argument or is hiding behing a legalistc one you are mistaken. Most of the debate in the wider world has taken place on moral principles, with legal case bing seen as either irrelevant, or in favour of the BM.

    The moral argument put forward by the curator of the BM is as follows. The marbles should be in the place where the most people will see them and get the most out of them. In the British museum they are seen for free by 5 million people every year in the context of the global cultural history of mankind. The greek claim to the marbles is no stronger than the Italian claim to take the Mona Lisa from the Louvre. For a tourist in Athens, the marbles would be just one more example of greek sculpture, and lords knows there is enough of that in Athens.

    I rather suspect the the particualar Greek fixation with this subject has rather more to do with their issues with the period of Turkish rule than it does with a genuine opinion on how antiquities should be treated. I've been to athens twiceand I am well aware that Greek museums are not about start repatriating thier collections.

    Here's some more evidence about the greek government's disingenuity over this issue:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3160203.stm

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