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Thread: More than just the first rank firing?

  1. #1

    Default More than just the first rank firing?

    Has anyone noticed that units without any advanced firing evolutions now have individuals from the second rank, and even a few from the third rank, firing in combat now? If you look closely, you will see this. This is new from the 1.2 patch, and significantly improves the fire power of units before Rank Fire is researched (or for those units that never get it).

  2. #2

    Default Re: More than just the first rank firing?

    Quote Originally Posted by sage2 View Post
    Has anyone noticed that units without any advanced firing evolutions now have individuals from the second rank, and even a few from the third rank, firing in combat now? If you look closely, you will see this. This is new from the 1.2 patch, and significantly improves the fire power of units before Rank Fire is researched (or for those units that never get it).
    I always line up my units in 2 rows before fire by rank but to be honest -no.

    only first row fired

    I would love if we could make a mass volley fire working...

  3. #3

    Default Re: More than just the first rank firing?

    Quote Originally Posted by derbiber View Post
    I always line up my units in 2 rows before fire by rank but to be honest -no.

    only first row fired

    I would love if we could make a mass volley fire working...
    I noticed it when I started line up some units 3 rows deep. It's not mass fire, since they don't fire simultaneously.

  4. #4

    Default Re: More than just the first rank firing?

    Quote Originally Posted by sage2 View Post
    I noticed it when I started line up some units 3 rows deep. It's not mass fire, since they don't fire simultaneously.
    true! just tested again.

    in 3 rows deep they fire from all ranks but not in volleys...

  5. #5

    Default Re: More than just the first rank firing?

    Quote Originally Posted by derbiber View Post
    I would love if we could make a mass volley fire working...
    There is already one. Not implemented yet, but IS has it. Afaik they got the problem atm, that mass volley is superior to ranked fire, when used by the AI.

    Tho its just the first three ranks firing simultaneously, without the first row kneeing down (which would be cool, yeah)
    Es ist unmöglich die Fackel der Wahrheit durch ein Gedränge zu tragen, ohne jemandem den Bart zu versengen.

  6. #6

    Default Re: More than just the first rank firing?

    I think people aren't tracking this -- it's new to the mod. It's a great feature for units that don't have rank fire -- it gives them so more, much needed firepower.

  7. #7
    l33tl4m3r's Avatar A Frakkin' Toaster
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    Default Re: More than just the first rank firing?

    Quote Originally Posted by dantragic View Post
    There is already one. Not implemented yet, but IS has it. Afaik they got the problem atm, that mass volley is superior to ranked fire, when used by the AI.

    Tho its just the first three ranks firing simultaneously, without the first row kneeing down (which would be cool, yeah)
    Mass fire as the base firing drill has been in APE for a long time now!

    Sage2; if you have any questions on this, let me know!
    [House of Caesars|Under the Patronage of Carl von Döbeln]

  8. #8

    Default Re: More than just the first rank firing?

    Quote Originally Posted by l33tl4m3r View Post
    Mass fire as the base firing drill has been in APE for a long time now!

    Sage2; if you have any questions on this, let me know!
    Thanks for the offer... but my point is that since the 1.2 patch, this is no longer needed -- men in the 2nd and 3rd ranks of "drill-less" units now fire -- whereas they did not in the past. The "battle fire", every guy shoots for himself, is a much more realistic type of fire for a unit (and volley fire would quickly devolve into this in most battles).

  9. #9

    Default Re: More than just the first rank firing?

    Quote Originally Posted by sage2 View Post
    Thanks for the offer... but my point is that since the 1.2 patch, this is no longer needed -- men in the 2nd and 3rd ranks of "drill-less" units now fire -- whereas they did not in the past. The "battle fire", every guy shoots for himself, is a much more realistic type of fire for a unit (and volley fire would quickly devolve into this in most battles).

    So maybe adding mass fire as a base skill for the more elite units?
    Es ist unmöglich die Fackel der Wahrheit durch ein Gedränge zu tragen, ohne jemandem den Bart zu versengen.

  10. #10

    Default Re: More than just the first rank firing?

    Quote Originally Posted by dantragic View Post
    So maybe adding mass fire as a base skill for the more elite units?
    yes, pls--- it´s a good thing IMO.

    At least we could make this optional with an extra patch or pack file?

  11. #11

    Default Re: More than just the first rank firing?

    Quote Originally Posted by dantragic View Post
    So maybe adding mass fire as a base skill for the more elite units?
    Hmm... I'm not say 'no', but it does seem moot. Why? Because rank fire is now achievable much earlier in the campaign, you will almost certainly have rank fire before you have grenadiers and guards. Yes?

    Do you mean perhaps add 'mass fire' for regular line troops? Let me think about that one. I can of arguments both for and against (for: it WAS an evolution used. it would help differentiate them from less trained unit. against: the majority of the time 'battle fire' aka no evolution would be used anyway. you can duplicate mass fire effectcs by turning off fire-at-will for a unit or group, then turning it on at the last minute.

  12. #12

    Default Re: More than just the first rank firing?

    Quote Originally Posted by sage2 View Post
    Hmm... I'm not say 'no', but it does seem moot. Why? Because rank fire is now achievable much earlier in the campaign, you will almost certainly have rank fire before you have grenadiers and guards. Yes?

    Do you mean perhaps add 'mass fire' for regular line troops? Let me think about that one. I can of arguments both for and against (for: it WAS an evolution used. it would help differentiate them from less trained unit. against: the majority of the time 'battle fire' aka no evolution would be used anyway. you can duplicate mass fire effectcs by turning off fire-at-will for a unit or group, then turning it on at the last minute.

    Hm, true. The point, that ranked fire is usually earlier available then the elite units is true.

    I wouldn't add mass volleys to common line infantry, since its just, well, line infantry. They weren't pretty much more then people with weapons, a short training and nice looking uniforms.

    my idea would something like:

    - Current volleys for all infantry units, including the usual line infantry, until they've researched ranked fire.

    BUT:

    - Mass volleys as base skill for units that were more elite, but are restricted in numbers : (e.g. "Prussian Line Infantry", the AOR units?)
    - For armies that were generally more elite by that time. (British forces maybe? but then reduce their amount of recruitable numbers)


    EDIT: What just comes into my mind. Is it possible to make mass fire available for units that reached a certain experience in battle?
    Last edited by dantragic; May 09, 2009 at 04:54 AM.
    Es ist unmöglich die Fackel der Wahrheit durch ein Gedränge zu tragen, ohne jemandem den Bart zu versengen.

  13. #13

    Default Re: More than just the first rank firing?

    Quote Originally Posted by dantragic View Post
    Hm, true. The point, that ranked fire is usually earlier available then the elite units is true.

    I wouldn't add mass volleys to common line infantry, since its just, well, line infantry. They weren't pretty much more then people with weapons, a short training and nice looking uniforms.

    my idea would something like:

    - Current volleys for all infantry units, including the usual line infantry, until they've researched ranked fire.

    BUT:

    - Mass volleys as base skill for units that were more elite, but are restricted in numbers : (e.g. "Prussian Line Infantry", the AOR units?)
    - For armies that were generally more elite by that time. (British forces maybe? but then reduce their amount of recruitable numbers)


    EDIT: What just comes into my mind. Is it possible to make mass fire available for units that reached a certain experience in battle?
    It's not possible to link an evolution with the experience level of a unit. That would be nice though...

  14. #14

    Default Re: More than just the first rank firing?

    How about mass volley for grenadiers? Historically, I am not sure historically but since they are "shock" troops, it would make sense (for gameplay) to allow the grenadiers to deliver a mass volley (and enjoy the moral effect of the mass casualties) before charging. I would imagine that it would be almost impossible to coordinate multiple mass volleys in combat without incredibly diciplined troops. It seems to me that it would be just an opening volley followed by independent fire.
    In God we trust...everyone else gets searched.

  15. #15

    Default Re: More than just the first rank firing?

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeCK View Post
    How about mass volley for grenadiers? Historically, I am not sure historically but since they are "shock" troops, it would make sense (for gameplay) to allow the grenadiers to deliver a mass volley (and enjoy the moral effect of the mass casualties) before charging. I would imagine that it would be almost impossible to coordinate multiple mass volleys in combat without incredibly diciplined troops. It seems to me that it would be just an opening volley followed by independent fire.
    Yeah, I've been thinking about this suggestion you made in the earlier thread.

    If there was a way to switch between mass and rank fire, I would do this, but there's not. Grenadiers definitely need to the more sophisticated firing evolution, e.g. rank fire, so they can stand toe to toe against line in fire combat. There ability to 'storm' is an extra duty or capability -- not the primary usage. Grenadiers were primarily used as line infantry.

  16. #16

    Default Re: More than just the first rank firing?

    Quote Originally Posted by sage2 View Post
    Yeah, I've been thinking about this suggestion you made in the earlier thread.

    If there was a way to switch between mass and rank fire, I would do this, but there's not. Grenadiers definitely need to the more sophisticated firing evolution, e.g. rank fire, so they can stand toe to toe against line in fire combat. There ability to 'storm' is an extra duty or capability -- not the primary usage. Grenadiers were primarily used as line infantry.

    Now that you mention it... doesn't researching 'fire and advance' create a button to toggle between it and the usual volley?
    Maybe just change the commands for 'fire and advance'?
    Es ist unmöglich die Fackel der Wahrheit durch ein Gedränge zu tragen, ohne jemandem den Bart zu versengen.

  17. #17
    Kiljaden's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: More than just the first rank firing?

    That has been my thought, dantragic, but I understand it's not possible. However, I would be much pleased to find that I heard wrong!

  18. #18
    tomsin's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: More than just the first rank firing?

    Honestly, what we need is first volleys bonys. Thay should be more accurate, more deadly and reload in first minute should be higher then afterwards. But it is impossible in ETW (which is exactly Medieval With Guns, nothing more).
    So I think that most accurate would be rank fire for most troops and maybe mass volley for grenadiers and guards.

    "When desperately wounded, the Russian soldier would drag himself eastward simply to die a few yards nearer his homeland." (- Haythornthwaite - "Russian Army" Part I)

  19. #19

    Default Re: More than just the first rank firing?

    started a new campaign on 1.14 with sweden.

    my second ranks aren´t firing at all... that´s strange. pls, can someone test this:

    if you start a new campaign only the first row will fire (militias and lines) until you have rankfire researched...

    now, lines fire by rank as they should.

    - militias start to shoot from second and third rank.

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