Curial Commentary Thread

[Major Darling]

An RPG without players would not be allowed as it wastes forum resources

[Pontifex Maximus]

Its one of the main reasons RPGs fail. I won't allow inactive RPG forums to clutter up the page and take up resources. There's a reasonable amount of time given for activity to pick up before I mark a forum for either deletion or recycling.

[General Brewster]

And that is my point exact.

[Robin de Bodemloze]

So in what your saying a mod maker should get an award cause he makes a mod.. Not because player who like it vote for it ? an RPG needs it people otherwise you don't have anything to enrich the site with imo.

Modders should be, and are recognised via artifex/opifex/novus(?) badges, rep from appreciative players and the site awards. As far as I'm concerned nobody has received, nor deserves to receive recognition for playing a mod. The key here is production versus consumption of TWC content. Not quite sure what argument there is for a reward for participation.

If a player has contributed significantly to an RPG then a well-designed game should keep said individual well rewarded within the game. Having a curia medal where recipients are voted in by fellow players opens up all kinds of opportunities for nepotism.

In any case longevity alone does not qualify one for a site medal - that's true even for content staff.

[Halie Satanus]

"Exceptional contribution" was the term I used. That could entail fleshed out and good roleplaying, yes, but it could also mean special recognition for local moderation, founding a game, taking the time to do artwork for the RPGs (which can be substantial), and conceivably any other facet involved in the playing and day to day operation of the RPGs.

I can't find the phrase 'exceptional contribution' in the proposal (?). I suggest reworking the proposal after the competition has run for a couple of moths/terms and to include what you actually envisage the award covering.

It is hardly that.

Judging from your responses to those who challenged the proposal and the fact you've stated you're going to take it to a vote regardless.

[Pontifex Maximus]

As far as I'm concerned nobody has received, nor deserves to receive recognition for playing a mod.

Because that is not a legitimate comparison. RPG play varies radically from playing a mod. In playing an RPG your experience depends on what others do and the quality of their contribution to the storyline in general. When people take a stunning amount of time to RP something they could have executed in a much shorter, less substantial, and more boring post, that is a service to every other player who now has the opportunity to react. RPG play is not just about playing to an end, its a contribution and enrichment to the game. It would be like downloading and laying a mod, and then after every campaign tweaking the mod and reuploading so others could enjoy something different or a changed aspect.

[Pontifex Maximus]

I can't find the phrase 'exceptional contribution' in the proposal (?).

I fail to see why having a medal that requires a modicum of commitment is a bad thing? Isn't that what every staff award and every large award requires? Exceptional, long term, and dedicated service and/or contribution?

I suggest reworking the proposal after the competition has run for a couple of moths/terms and to include what you actually envisage the award covering.

The qualifications for the award have already been outlined in the proposal and the rules thread for the competition. And if it fails the proposal will be reworked and proposed after it has already run for some time.

Judging from your responses to those who challenged the proposal and the fact you've stated you're going to take it to a vote regardless.

There's no harm in trying. Plenty of people expressed support. Not every proposal has near unanimous support, and I don't think it would be wise to admit defeat because of 3 or 4 outspoken opposing citizens.

[Robin de Bodemloze]

Because that is not a legitimate comparison. RPG play varies radically from playing a mod. In playing an RPG your experience depends on what others do and the quality of their contribution to the storyline in general. When people take a stunning amount of time to RP something they could have executed in a much shorter, less substantial, and more boring post, that is a service to every other player who now has the opportunity to react. RPG play is not just about playing to an end, its a contribution and enrichment to the game. It would be like downloading and laying a mod, and then after every campaign tweaking the mod and reuploading so others could enjoy something different or a changed aspect.

I was responding to Brewster's question whether "a mod maker should get an award cause he makes a mod.. Not because player who like it vote for it ?". It's not the best comparison admittedly.

Nonetheless, I feel the players are RP'ing within the mechanics of the game and should be rewarded by distinctions within the game, not by the Curia. That's how games work isn't it? You put effort into the game and gain gratification through interaction with other players and rewards from the game? Why is that not enough? Because a Curia medal carries more legitimacy and implies more importance for the institution it is awarded for?

[Pontifex Maximus]

I was responding to Brewster's question whether "a mod maker should get an award cause he makes a mod.. Not because player who like it vote for it ?". It's not the best comparison admittedly.

Nonetheless, I feel the players are RP'ing within the mechanics of the game and should be rewarded by distinctions within the game, not by the Curia. The enjoyment derived from the game itself is the reward for the players. Why is that not enough? Because a Curia medal carries more legitimacy?

I consider exceptional RPG contribution to be worthy of recognition by the curia because the RPG section has proven itself to be a strong, thriving community within a community, it attracts new members to join, and promotes positive contribution to the site as a whole on an individual as well as community basis. This is one of those rare opportunities for the curia to positively impact the site as a whole, instead of existing only to operate for itself. I think that is the reason for the controversy of this proposal.

[Robin de Bodemloze]

I consider exceptional RPG contribution to be worthy of recognition by the curia because the RPG section has proven itself to be a strong, thriving community within a community, it attracts new members to join, and promotes positive contribution to the site as a whole on an individual as well as community basis. This is one of those rare opportunities for the curia to positively impact the site as a whole, instead of existing only to operate for itself. I think that is the reason for the controversy of this proposal.

I understand the desire for "official" recognition, but surely the game keepers deserve the most recognition as they are the ones writing up all the content? I'm wandering into dangerously unfamiliar territory here but my guess is that very few players come close to matching the amount of effort required to flesh out and run the game. The month RPG competition in its current form is just too loosely defined and smacks of something that is driven by favouritism.

Ultimately I think it's something that could work, but there should be some objective standards that nominees' merits are judged by.

[General Brewster]

Modders should be, and are recognised via artifex/opifex/novus(?) badges, rep from appreciative players and the site awards. As far as I'm concerned nobody has received, nor deserves to receive recognition for playing a mod. The key here is production versus consumption of TWC content. Not quite sure what argument there is for a reward for participation.

If a player has contributed significantly to an RPG then a well-designed game should keep said individual well rewarded within the game. Having a curia medal where recipients are voted in by fellow players opens up all kinds of opportunities for nepotism.

In any case longevity alone does not qualify one for a site medal - that's true even for content staff.

It still stays the case that an RPG need it's players or it's not there in the first place, awards for moderators would seem a little bit unfair. Of course take Snap in mind he works his butt of doing his RPG's and I would probably nominate him for an award but make awards that can be awarded to everyone not just the moderator cause if no one is active in the RPG or just a little, Snap has no work to do either.

In general I have some mixed feelings about an award for RPG games though ofc as stated the RPG moderators work there butt off.

[Halie Satanus]

The qualifications for the award have already been outlined in the proposal and the rules thread for the competition. And if it fails the proposal will be reworked and proposed after it has already run for some time.

It's a key point that hinges what you meant yet it didn't appear in the OP.

There's no harm in trying. Plenty of people expressed support. Not every proposal has near unanimous support, and I don't think it would be wise to admit defeat because of 3 or 4 outspoken opposing citizens.

Fair enough, but now your weighing success on a proposal which wasn't well presented and has some very influential opposition. I'm sure you've seen proposals go through several draughts before going to a vote, I think in this case you'd be better off taking on the criticisms and reworking.

Just out of interest, did you discuss this with the RPG regulars?

[Pontifex Maximus]

I understand the desire for "official" recognition, but surely the game keepers deserve the most recognition as they are the ones writing up all the content? I'm wandering into dangerously unfamiliar territory here but my guess is that very few players come close to matching the amount of effort required to flesh out and run the game. The month RPG competition in its current form is just too loosely defined and smacks of something that is driven by favouritism.

Ultimately I think it's something that could work, but there should be some objective standards that nominees' merits are judged by.

Of course it does take a monumental amount of work to set up a successful RPG. I direct your attention to the latest Westeros game, whose proposal lasted 19 pages over the course of three months. They have recently been granted a space to play.

But there are also other factors to consider. Beyond Potter was co-founded by three developers who all spent a great deal of time putting that game together. But even the games initially developed by a single person, such as The Roman Struggle (a game I developed) it would be incredibly selfish and wrong for me to say I am responsible for the game entirely in its current form. Over the past 8 months there has been a lot of input added by players that has dramatically changed the game for the better. I provided a fleshed out, in depth framework but in many ways I am indebted to the players for addressing areas I overlooked or didn't think important. Therefore I might be responsible for 75% of the game in terms of development, but other people could easily stake a claim to the other 25% (or more!). That also deserves recognition, because if not for their input, I doubt the game would be even as close to as successful as it is now.

It's a key point that hinges what you meant yet it didn't appear in the OP.

Perhaps. I was wrong not to have included more explanation in the OP itself.

Fair enough, but now your weighing success on a proposal which wasn't well presented and has some very influential opposition. I'm sure you've seen proposals go through several draughts before going to a vote, I think in this case you'd be better off taking on the criticisms and reworking.

The criticism leaves little to be worked with. I did redraft to include a revised points system for 1st-3rd places, but Ishan's criticism boils down to flat out refusal of the idea for reasons out of my control and Legio and Gigantus' criticism revolves around wanting to see a few successful rounds of competition before they will vote in favor. I can work with the latter if the proposal fails initially, but other than that I did try to convince Ishan of the RPG's efficacy but I failed and then things got rather ugly as I responded defensively to what I considered to be insulting statements regarding the overwhelming contributions made by the RPG players.

Just out of interest, did you discuss this with the RPG regulars?

Yes, privately with Sirius Black and Lucius Malfoy and publicly with the rest of them about two months ago.

[Halie Satanus]

Perhaps. I was wrong not to have included more explanation in the OP itself.

Hindsight can be a pain in the backside. I saw some nice art work as well, things like that draw attention and peak interest. Instead of viewing this proposal as having to go cap in hand to the curia you should have treated it as a recruitment/advertising initiative.

The criticism leaves little to be worked with. I did redraft to include a revised points system for 1st-3rd places, but Ishan's criticism boils down to flat out refusal of the idea for reasons out of my control and Legio and Gigantus' criticism revolves around wanting to see a few successful rounds of competition before they will vote in favor. I can work with the latter if the proposal fails initially, but other than that I did try to convince Ishan of the RPG's efficacy but I failed and then things got rather ugly as I responded defensively to what I considered to be insulting statements regarding the overwhelming contributions made by the RPG players.

So, focus on what you can work with rather than butting heads.

Yes, privately with Sirius Black and Lucius Malfoy and publicly with the rest of them about two months ago.

Not the idea, but the actual proposal, did you post it in a private/discussion forum and work it out, it doesn't look like it.

I think what I'd have done is set term limits, say every 6 months. At the end of that I'd set out a small number of categories which the RPG community themselves can vote on and the winners would get a medal. Pretty much like the site awards but restrict voting only to those who participate in the RPG forums. RPG contributions have qualities that make curial medals unsuitable, if the curia can't simply measure something it's not going to be interested. But I can't see any reason why you couldn't talk to Hex about organising your own awards with a medal at the end. That should be subject to a far more comprehensive proposal being put together but, at least you could then show what is actually being done there rather than trying to get equal recognition with other forums with comparisons.

[Pontifex Maximus]

Hindsight can be a pain in the backside. I saw some nice art work as well, things like that draw attention and peak interest. Instead of viewing this proposal as having to go cap in hand to the curia you should have treated it as a recruitment/advertising initiative.

Recruitment for the RPGs is tricky. A lot of traffic ends up coming from the front page traditionally but lately I've been thrilled by an influx of already established members. Major Darling returned and Lord Rahl set up an excellent little Star Trek RP. Okmin returned to The Roman Struggle. Other people whose names escape me have also gotten back into it. I would like to have this trend continue but as you can see opinions swing all the way from hostility to mockery to enjoyment and perhaps an unhealthy devotion.

So, focus on what you can work with rather than butting heads.

One of my many flaws.

Not the idea, but the actual proposal, did you post it in a private/discussion forum and work it out, it doesn't look like it.

No, some discussion happened beforehand but nothing formal.

I think what I'd have done is set term limits, say every 6 months. At the end of that I'd set out a small number of categories which the RPG community themselves can vote on and the winners would get a medal. Pretty much like the site awards but restrict voting only to those who participate in the RPG forums.

That's becoming a more appealing option since Omni proposed it. I might abandon the current proposal in favor of a system like that but I'd like to ascertain the opinion of the supporters before I do that.

RPG contributions have qualities that make curial medals unsuitable, if the curia can't simply measure something it's not going to be interested. But I can't see any reason why you couldn't talk to Hex about organising your own awards with a medal at the end. That should be subject to a far more comprehensive proposal being put together but, at least you could then show what is actually being done there rather than trying to get equal recognition with other forums with comparisons.

Probably a good alternative but seeing as staff has seemingly closed ranks on this I'm not sure it is possible to reason with them at this point.

[The Hedge Knight]

I find Pdguru's artifex nomination a little bemusing. Has he even accepted the nomination? Without the client paragraph it seems difficult to tell.

Great modder though.

[Halie Satanus]

I find Pdguru's artifex nomination a little bemusing. Has he even accepted the nomination? Without the client paragraph it seems difficult to tell.

Great modder though.

Non-citizens can't view it while citizens can comment in the curia, no? ...

[lolIsuck]

I oppose the idea of having this as a basic function (available at registration). I would however be open to discuss whether it should be granted at a certain post count level, although I would expect an increased misuse of that function if made available to non citizen in general - creating additional work for admin stuff\moderators.

Wouldn't this encourage spamming? Do you also have an idea about what the post count level should be? There are loads of spammers that haven't exactly contributed a lot. A lot of new members and people with a low post count actually contribute, I'd rather see a member with 200 posts who's in a mod team to get a custom user title then a spammer with 2000 posts who only posts in the Coliseum.

Oppose. Although I believe I supported the last attempt I've had a change of mind. If we're going to start giving all full(?) members the "simple" perks of being a citizen then we might as well remove citizenship entirely since all the benefits will already reside with the non-citizens. In case the argument wasn't obvious, I'm using the slippery slope argument. I also have no problem with members being required to contribute, whether as an LM, staff or enough elsewhere to gain citizenship to have this privilege.

I always thought citizenship was a bit more then having the ability to change your user title. Having a custom user title is just a bonus for either of those ranks, the real rewards are access to CVRIA and sideforums, the content forum or having limited moderation powers over a part of the forum and in the first two cases a shiny badge (or 3 in case of citizens) and your name in a different colour.

[lolIsuck]

• The Citizen/Artifex Badge obviously
  Access to the Curia -Most citizens couldn't care less and don't go to the curia
  Access to the Citizens user group -Nothing special just required for the others
  Opportunity to Patronize a member to become a Citizen -See my access comment
  Opportunity to have a say in some decisions, propositions and vote on those in the Curia -See my access comment
  Opportunity to become a CdeC Councillor -See my access comment
  Opportunity to become a Curator -See my access comment
  Opportunity to become a Magistrate -Most don't care as they aren't involved in that aspect of the site
  Opportunity to become a Moderator
  Custom usertitle -Only one of the items people actually ask and care about

The fact that most don't care about some of the priviliges they get doesn't mean they don't get them. Would people really put hours and hours of work into the site just so they can edit a line of text below their avatar? That sounds pretty absurd.
This is one heavy discussion for something as trivial as this. What is the problem with giving the lower members access to this feature too, they would like it and it's not like suddenly all the power of the CVRIA and all priviliges of the citizens go down the drain.

I also thought the citizen class only existed so people could partake in CVRIA bussiness and moderation.

edit: I have no regrets over this double post because if no one is responding I just have to.

[Mangerman]

I also thought the citizen class only existed so people could partake in CVRIA bussiness and moderation.

No, in reality the only reason it exist is to keep down the Proletariat. Just ask the Commissars