"DETAILED" Faction Idea thread

[Varjon]

AI isn't smart enough to move by ships so long distances especially since they don't see Gondor as a threat.

[Elphir of Dol Amroth]

Your working on that ?!?! That's AWESOME ! I wonder if the game engine could support bears ....

I'm on it yes, thanks. I don't know about the bears, with some new animation it should be possible I guess. Not sure if we'll include bears as units though.

[de la fere]

Well, I'm a bit against the Shire faction...Just imagine Will Harfoot the Fat ruling ME.... or imagine anyone else from these round-faced, curly haired petty eating machines with hairy foots in his place... Absolutely hilarious, even in a TW game...

It is not that this Aragorn-guy is so much more attractive, isn´t he?

[Beorn]

It is not that this Aragorn-guy is so much more attractive, isn´t he?

No, it's just because it looks silly

no offense of course

[Hippolord]

AI isn't smart enough to move by ships so long distances especially since they don't see Gondor as a threat.

Thats why you will see that in my post i suggested giving them control of all coastal settelments in harad.

Tolkien never eally dicusses the men of Umbar much, so we know little of the expanse of there control, but in game IF there were to be an Umbar faction then i see little reason to give and coastal territory to Harad, seeing as one the Haradrim had NO known ships (Though im sure they had some especially further south) and if i look at the map right i think they can still easily reach gondor without them.

If we give them the coastal Territories of Harad, they would probably expand into the coastal Reagion of South Gondor. They now can fight gondor across the Anduin easily, both by land (That thing you can walk across at the base of the Anduin) if they so choose. Also Gondor is now just across a small body of water if they choose to attack by sea.

Also I don't know if Umbar was under complete control of the Haradrim 50 years before the war of the ring. Umbarians and Haradrim are often Mentioned apart from eachother both in the books and in the movies (Though they are only mentioned a few times in movies). And so now it's 50 years earlier so whther Harad controlled umbar or not is up to debate.

As for the Units, i don't think there that few Numenorians left in Umbar, It was a Haven of the Numenorians(Evil though they may be), up until the Gondorian Conquests in i belive teh 13th century TAotS. Now i am beyond doubt that they did interbreed with the locals, but tolkien also never really talks about this, and i was thinking of a Pure(er) Numenorian Upper class if you will, the lesser men of the city having made the wiser and stronger Black Numenorians there leaders.

Also a Rich Northern Desert Merchant City, could create many a unique unit. Not Just corsairs, but warriors of a Wealthier merchant class, along with elite men of the numerous corsair lords of the city, lead by of course something of a corsair king (Coulkd have teutonic style of Family). Also they could have various Desert Coast mercenaries, which would be different than normal Desert soliders, all you have to do is look to the past of our world to the satrk contrast of Warriors of the Desert and Warriors of the Dest coast (Berbers Vs. Carthage Bedouins Vs. Saba etc.).

So yes i belive an Umbar faction would be both unique, and plausible.

[Beorn]

Hippolord, you made me like the Umbar idea...

[Hellenikon]

Hippolord, i love Umbar too, and would like to see them ingame somehow (i am the author of a submod called "Umbar minimod"). Because of my interest for this city and it´s history, i´ve researched about it and have found some interesting webs, mostly of roleplaying games, that explain many things about that city. You should read them as they are very well written and very interesting for those who wish to know more about Umbar.

I suggest you to visit this links:

Information about Umbar
http://wiki.lindefirion.net/Index

http://www.guildcompanion.com/scroll...kingumbar.html

[Role playing forum based game, set on third age 1601, rules for Umbar]

http://forumgaming.com/SMF2/index.php?topic=1365.30

Depictions of Corsairs in Lotr film

Dead scares away corsairs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVqbaBYdEzQ

Corsairs raid Pelargir: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYoNf...eature=related

Peter jackson as a corsair: https://www.kollectablekaos.com.au/i...tercorsair.jpg

Close up of a corsair ship: http://farm1.static.flickr.com/48/12...365f4e22_o.jpg

Other depictions of Umbar troops
http://es.geocities.com/niyosequiens...bres/yelmo.htm
http://es.geocities.com/niyosequiens.../umbareano.htm
http://es.geocities.com/niyosequiens...batallanav.htm


My opinion on this is that i´d really like to see a Umbar faction, but not on the time period of the mod. I mean, you can do it, sure, but that would not be accurate in any way. On the time period of the mod the city was under Haradrim control, and there is no reason other than "It would be cool" to include them as different faction from the haradrim.

[Ceasar Gubius]

Wow Hippolord! You've even sold me on the idea of Umbar more! And it makes even more sense, because if Mirkwood and Lothlorien are made into seperate factions, the Good Guys would be to top heavy. There needs to be more bad and neutral factions...

This is just a minor technicallity, but should the "Dunedain race be renamed to "Numenorian"? I thought that Dunedain were just a special lineage of Numenor, while Numenor was the primary culture of Gondor and Arnor. I could be wrong though....

[aesthete]

The black Numenorians were part of the Gondorian navy before they revolted

[Jaguar6]

Actually Ceaser Gubius the Numenoreans are a split of the Dunedain, all the Dunedain that went to Numenor or are descendants of those that did are called Numenoreans

[Hippolord]

Well actually i think i just changed it to just Worshippers of Melkor, Because although there were some numenorians they were still worshippers of Melkor.

And i thnak you for the support of my idea!

But be weary of what Bucefalo said, he has a good point...

[Jaguar6]

Actually the Corsairs of Umbar were considered closely related to the Haradrim, and there were still a lot of Gondorian descendants from the time Castimir the Usurper and his followers fled there. Besides, Umbar is always listed separatly from the Haradrim, and governed itself.

[The Sixth Wizard]

Make Umbar a vassal of Harad with military access both ways. The inherent hypocrisy of the Corsairs thinking they are "purer" than the Haradrim yet being their servants is classic.

[Ceasar Gubius]

Before I speak an idea and make a fool of myself (LOL), were there any Dark Numenoreans in the North by the Third Age???

[Jaguar6]

There never were

[Varjon]

This is just a minor technicallity, but should the "Dunedain race be renamed to "Numenorian"? I thought that Dunedain were just a special lineage of Numenor, while Numenor was the primary culture of Gondor and Arnor. I could be wrong though....

Númenórean = Dúnadan

Thats why you will see that in my post i suggested giving them control of all coastal settelments in harad.

Tolkien never eally dicusses the men of Umbar much, so we know little of the expanse of there control, but in game IF there were to be an Umbar faction then i see little reason to give and coastal territory to Harad, seeing as one the Haradrim had NO known ships (Though im sure they had some especially further south) and if i look at the map right i think they can still easily reach gondor without them.

If we give them the coastal Territories of Harad, they would probably expand into the coastal Reagion of South Gondor. They now can fight gondor across the Anduin easily, both by land (That thing you can walk across at the base of the Anduin) if they so choose. Also Gondor is now just across a small body of water if they choose to attack by sea.

Also I don't know if Umbar was under complete control of the Haradrim 50 years before the war of the ring. Umbarians and Haradrim are often Mentioned apart from eachother both in the books and in the movies (Though they are only mentioned a few times in movies). And so now it's 50 years earlier so whther Harad controlled umbar or not is up to debate.

As for the Units, i don't think there that few Numenorians left in Umbar, It was a Haven of the Numenorians(Evil though they may be), up until the Gondorian Conquests in i belive teh 13th century TAotS. Now i am beyond doubt that they did interbreed with the locals, but tolkien also never really talks about this, and i was thinking of a Pure(er) Numenorian Upper class if you will, the lesser men of the city having made the wiser and stronger Black Numenorians there leaders.

Also a Rich Northern Desert Merchant City, could create many a unique unit. Not Just corsairs, but warriors of a Wealthier merchant class, along with elite men of the numerous corsair lords of the city, lead by of course something of a corsair king (Coulkd have teutonic style of Family). Also they could have various Desert Coast mercenaries, which would be different than normal Desert soliders, all you have to do is look to the past of our world to the satrk contrast of Warriors of the Desert and Warriors of the Dest coast (Berbers Vs. Carthage Bedouins Vs. Saba etc.).

So yes i belive an Umbar faction would be both unique, and plausible.

If they have control over coastals of Harad it coulod work or in worse scenario Harad would become neutral faction when Umbar takes all land from Ithilien and blocks Harad to south.

I think there's no doubt about that they mixed with local population because so did Gondorians too.

[ISA Gunner]

Umbar would not work very well. What would be their victory conditions? Take over Gondor's lands? But then what will Harad do? It's already a competition between Mordor and Harad anyway. All those Umbar units should be AOR units recruitable in Umbar, Vatavea and in the province of North Umbar (forgot the name). Plus they need more ships...along with all the other factions. And no cogs and holks for Gondor or dhows for the High Elves.

Beorning faction i don't really agree with. They should still be rebels but should be made stronger with some of those units included to slow down OOMM and Silvan Elf expansion but not limit it.

Lothlorien should either be an independent faction or the Silvan Elves should get a good amount of AOR Galahrim Sentinels and Warriors recruitable in the Gladden Fields and the 2 cities within the forest of Lothlorien.

Isengard should get more Uruk-hai. Vanguards with big shields and a lot of defence. Dreadguards as general's bodyguards. Spearmen to be mobile anti-cavalry flank guarders. Maybe an axe unit with 1H axes as opposed to the swords. Axes after all were common with Uruks and Orcs, especially with Isengard as it was so big on industry. Also, the current Uruks need more variation. They're clones. Different helmets. In the movies there is a lot of variety with the armour and helms. With the Uruk scouts and archers, they should be wearing raggy and baggy dirty, brown heavy leather armour with leather and metal helms. Look at JonSnow's signature. Also i think berserkers need to be armoured. Firstly, in the movie if you look close enough you can see them wearing greaves, wrist plates, cuirasses and pauldrons (shoulder pads). Plus Saruman armoured all of his Uruks and it would have been pointless to make the ones expected to do the most damage unarmoured.

Gondor needs more units. A private Dol Amroth army. 1H axe-wielding Lossanarchs. And give them helmets too. Makes them seem more soldier like and professional. More Pelargir units like Harbour Guards or whatever. Also, more, proper ships.

Rohan is fine but maybe one or two more cavalry units. Something equivelant to the Eored Heavy Lancers but with swords and a unit between Rohan Riders and the Eored Heavy Lancers. Also, a unit like the Warriors in the old Rohan preview would good. With javelins and axes.

Rhun is fine. Dale and Eriador are being redone and the High Elves are fine. Other than that, just fix up the generals and captains of the factions, fix up and add more standard bearers. I don't like how an unarmoured Silvan standard bearer is leading Heavy Swordsmen into battle. Or a heavy Uruk riding a warg. And then just fix up the ships and all is well.

[JorisofHolland]

Actually the Corsairs of Umbar were considered closely related to the Haradrim, and there were still a lot of Gondorian descendants from the time Castimir the Usurper and his followers fled there. Besides, Umbar is always listed separatly from the Haradrim, and governed itself.

Umbar was before already inhabitted by gondorians so they should be Numenorean (Dunedain). Dunedan means: man of the west. Numenorean means inhabbiter of Numenor, which comes down on the same.

[Varjon]

It had been under strong influence of Haradrim for almost 1500 years and faced several assaults by Gondorians and Haradrim. Conclusion is that there were very few Dúnedain left who could be recognized as Dúnedain (tallness, life span, etc.).

[Ketchup]

Umbar would not work very well. What would be their victory conditions? Take over Gondor's lands? But then what will Harad do? It's already a competition between Mordor and Harad anyway. All those Umbar units should be AOR units recruitable in Umbar, Vatavea and in the province of North Umbar (forgot the name). Plus they need more ships...along with all the other factions. And no cogs and holks for Gondor or dhows for the High Elves.

Beorning faction i don't really agree with. They should still be rebels but should be made stronger with some of those units included to slow down OOMM and Silvan Elf expansion but not limit it.

Lothlorien should either be an independent faction or the Silvan Elves should get a good amount of AOR Galahrim Sentinels and Warriors recruitable in the Gladden Fields and the 2 cities within the forest of Lothlorien.

Isengard should get more Uruk-hai. Vanguards with big shields and a lot of defence. Dreadguards as general's bodyguards. Spearmen to be mobile anti-cavalry flank guarders. Maybe an axe unit with 1H axes as opposed to the swords. Axes after all were common with Uruks and Orcs, especially with Isengard as it was so big on industry. Also, the current Uruks need more variation. They're clones. Different helmets. In the movies there is a lot of variety with the armour and helms. With the Uruk scouts and archers, they should be wearing raggy and baggy dirty, brown heavy leather armour with leather and metal helms. Look at JonSnow's signature. Also i think berserkers need to be armoured. Firstly, in the movie if you look close enough you can see them wearing greaves, wrist plates, cuirasses and pauldrons (shoulder pads). Plus Saruman armoured all of his Uruks and it would have been pointless to make the ones expected to do the most damage unarmoured.

Gondor needs more units. A private Dol Amroth army. 1H axe-wielding Lossanarchs. And give them helmets too. Makes them seem more soldier like and professional. More Pelargir units like Harbour Guards or whatever. Also, more, proper ships.

Rohan is fine but maybe one or two more cavalry units. Something equivelant to the Eored Heavy Lancers but with swords and a unit between Rohan Riders and the Eored Heavy Lancers. Also, a unit like the Warriors in the old Rohan preview would good. With javelins and axes.

Rhun is fine. Dale and Eriador are being redone and the High Elves are fine. Other than that, just fix up the generals and captains of the factions, fix up and add more standard bearers. I don't like how an unarmoured Silvan standard bearer is leading Heavy Swordsmen into battle. Or a heavy Uruk riding a warg. And then just fix up the ships and all is well.

I would agree with most of that. At least it would be a very good start. (+rep)