Swastikas in Germany

[Antiochus III]

[This thread was split off from the thread Vanilla style unit preview on the Rome: Total Realism board. -Simetrical]

Nice work as ever, though I prefer the previews for factions that filled this board... they're better.

Good work on units themselves also.

However, I notice that you removed the historically correct swastika symbol on the Italian skirmishers' shield. I do doubt your judgement for that - historically correct things should not be hindered for the sake of "political correctness" - and we aren't talking about Hitler and his Nazis here (who ruined many things much more than human lives - for example, the symbol that once represented peace and prosperity among many ancient civilizations now becomes, unjustly, the symbol of evil of some kind) but, rather, a symbol used historically. The picture which I believed you used is from Osprey's, right? I'm sure the symbols are there...

The description of the auxilia could contain interesting historical facts of why the symbol is there if you fear that some noobs would come in and complain endlessly about the so-called "Nazi" symbol on an Italian shield. :mellow

Oh yeah, and those spams are quite right - it's "their" in your sentences, not "there." *tongue*

[Oddball_E8]

Originally posted by Antiochus III@May 10 2005, 11:27 PM
Nice work as ever, though I prefer the previews for factions that filled this board... they're better.

Good work on units themselves also.

However, I notice that you removed the historically correct swastika symbol on the Italian skirmishers' shield. I do doubt your judgement for that - historically correct things should not be hindered for the sake of "political correctness" - and we aren't talking about Hitler and his Nazis here (who ruined many things much more than human lives - for example, the symbol that once represented peace and prosperity among many ancient civilizations now becomes, unjustly, the symbol of evil of some kind) but, rather, a symbol used historically. The picture which I believed you used is from Osprey's, right? I'm sure the symbols are there...

The description of the auxilia could contain interesting historical facts of why the symbol is there if you fear that some noobs would come in and complain endlessly about the so-called "Nazi" symbol on an Italian shield. :mellow

Oh yeah, and those spams are quite right - it's "their" in your sentences, not "there." *tongue*

if the historically correct swastika symbol is used the mod will be illegal to use in germany... its as simple as that i think...

[tai4ji2x]

Originally posted by Oddball_E8@May 10 2005, 06:29 PM
if the historically correct swastika symbol is used the mod will be illegal to use in germany... its as simple as that i think...

hmm... what happens to present-day hindus and buddhists living in germany? elsewhere they still use the swaztika as traditional symbols.

[Maximus2K5]

Well, hearing all these good things about the historical use of the swastica, I now feel like the use of it when applied to President Bush is a good thing. *tongue*

[Oddball_E8]

Originally posted by tai4ji2x@May 11 2005, 02:45 AM
hmm... what happens to present-day hindus and buddhists living in germany? elsewhere they still use the swaztika as traditional symbols.

hmmm... im not sure... but the hindu and buddhist swastika is reversed isnt it?

[mAIOR]

No it wont... the german Suastica is somewhat inverted while the Suastica they used on the shields was a straight one... also, the Suastica is just a symbol nothing more... you can have a Suastica in your house it doesn't affect a thing... no one can forbid you...
Also, you can (according to the definition of the word democracy) be a nazi as long as you don't interfere with other people rights...

Btw.: I'm not a NAZI; just clearing this matter up not starting a political discussion, I will not answer to replies to this post.

Cheers

[Oddball_E8]

Originally posted by horsearcher@May 11 2005, 05:02 AM
Excellent units. Excellent preview.

All 3 of you above me are getting way off topic. no more discussions about george bush, hindus or germany. This isn't a political thread. All 3 posts are considered a spam and you know what you get for it

im verry sorry... didnt see your post there :shocked ... ill cease immediately :blush

[Simetrical]

We don't care about the mod's distribution in Germany, I assure you. The German government can't do anything to us, even if they heard about the mod. What are they going to do, try to get us extradited? But more to the point, the German government doesn't know or care about a swastika used in a thoroughly innocuous context in a free product distributed over the Internet. I suspect that swastikas used in a clearly non-Nazist manner are even legal in Germany.

Why we removed the swastikas, I'm not sure.

-Simetrical

[Obi Wan Asterix]

Its a Celtic symbol irrelevant in Roman times.... Samnite faciton symbol... should not be removed Simetrical is right

[Thales of Miletus]

The new skins look great. No more candy colors. The Auxilia units don't seem to be as great like in the Roma mod gameplay-wise.

Btw, swastikas and Hakenkreuze aren't illegal in Germany. It's the use that counts.

In my game, I'm going to give Gaul another faction icon. But that's just me, I don't like seeing swastikas in a game like this.

[lecnac]

Just for your information, by an insider - german *tongue* since there had been some irritations and confusion about the subject.
Each and every single game which had swastica symbols in it had been forbidden in germany so far! No PG-rating, no age restrictions, no - those games are simply not legally sold anymore! You can show it in media in historical context as long as it doesnt promote nazi idiology or offend the victims of the third Reich, but for games that argument doesnt count. Look at the weird symbol in the shooter "Return to Castle Wolfenstein", its just that way so the game could be sold in Germany and not being indexed like its now dusty predecessor we all played a long time ago...

I doubt that RTR being a free mod with such limited use of the symbol in a totally different and proper context will cause any consequences here in Germany. Although I personally despise the symbol and its late background there I understand that there is no moral concern to use it in the historical accurate RTR setting.


In Germany there is just no other context to the swastika anymore, our bloody history has wiped out thoughts about the origins and uses of the swastika in other times and cultures since the austrian private took it up as the very symbol for his movement of hate.

[Warspite]

It's a shame, because it's such an obvious graphic that virtually every ancient culture in the world developed and used it, at times (apparently) even independently of one another. Even in WW2 itself, the blue swastika used on Finnish aircraft--despite that nation's alliance with Germany--was (as I understand it) entirely coincidental--the symbol was adopted because it was part of the heraldry (or somesuch) of the aristocratic family that provided money to the fledgling Finnish AF, lyears before Shicklegruber's demented son adopted the symbol as that of National Socialism.

Unfortunately, precisely because it is such a powerful and memorable graphic, and was used so boldly in such a dramatic and traumatic period, it will likely remain associated in the minds of most people exclusively with Nazism for a very long time to come. I suppose that's one of Nazism's few enduring victories.

--Warspite

[GauisGizmo]

Originally posted by Thales of Miletus@May 12 2005, 09:55 AM
The new skins look great. No more candy colors. The Auxilia units don't seem to be as great like in the Roma mod gameplay-wise.

Btw, swastikas and Hakenkreuze aren't illegal in Germany. It's the use that counts.

In my game, I'm going to give Gaul another faction icon. But that's just me, I don't like seeing swastikas in a game like this.

who said gaul's faction would have a swastika on it? And besides, it wasn't always a symbol of hatred, it was used in Native American, Gallic, Italian, and Indian culture. I just don't see why people jump to conclusions about it, like the one time in History class we were studying about India and Hinduism, and my friend (whose a Hindu himself) decided to bring in an ivory sculpture of a Hindu god with a swastika on it and the assistant principal saw it and suspended him and took the sculpture!

Sorry for being off-topic, I think the units look great wes, and you should do that setup for every faction!

[Warspite]

Japanese culture, too. Long before the whole Axis thing, that is, in samurai days.

--Warspite

[Maximus2K5]

Originally posted by lecnac@May 12 2005, 01:47 PM
Just for your information, by an insider - german *tongue* since there had been some irritations and confusion about the subject.
Each and every single game which had swastica symbols in it had been forbidden in germany so far! No PG-rating, no age restrictions, no - those games are simply not legally sold anymore! You can show it in media in historical context as long as it doesnt promote nazi idiology or offend the victims of the third Reich, but for games that argument doesnt count. Look at the weird symbol in the shooter "Return to Castle Wolfenstein", its just that way so the game could be sold in Germany and not being indexed like its now dusty predecessor we all played a long time ago...

I doubt that RTR being a free mod with such limited use of the symbol in a totally different and proper context will cause any consequences here in Germany. Although I personally despise the symbol and its late background there I understand that there is no moral concern to use it in the historical accurate RTR setting.


In Germany there is just no other context to the swastika anymore, our bloody history has wiped out thoughts about the origins and uses of the swastika in other times and cultures since the austrian private took it up as the very symbol for his movement of hate.

Despite Germany's "guilt" that it associates with the swastica, I find it quite sad really that Germany, 60 years later can't get over the problem.

This would be like banning all resemblance of the Confederate Flag in the States. A symbol that a lot of people associate with the evils of slavery, yet it's still a prominate symbol in America's sub-culture as a form of heritage...in a good way.

I believe that banning the swastica is a form of censorship which in case was some of what Hitler was guilty of himself by banning (and thus burning) of books. And this censorship, I fear, will in future generations lead to the age ol' problem of "for those who forget history, are doomed to repeat it." Now, I'm not saying that Germany's current "fear" of displaying the swastica will start an all new militaristic movement within, but once all former WWII vets die and those who remember Germany's role in the war are gone, some future generation is gonna discover the symbol and become curious to its meaning and restart the movement for which it stood for.

[mAIOR]

That is one of the main conserns of many people (me included) because, if you get curious and no one tells you a thing and so you do a little research by yourself and then, you find a lot of documentaries and propaganda footage from that time... and next thing you know, you're one of them... I have a friend of mine who is taking a History degree and, he syas, that when he required cinematic footage from the Germany in WWII besides being hard as hell to get (a lot of explaining was needed in the why did he wanted the tapes), it said in the brggining along those legal advises stuff, that if by anychance he felt attrackted to Hitlers germany while seeing the movie, he should stop seing that immediatly and return the tapes. So, I think that information and correct instruction are the best weapons against Nazism and alikes...

Cheers...

[Maximus2K5]

Originally posted by mAIOR@May 18 2005, 02:45 AM
That is one of the main conserns of many people (me included) because, if you get curious and no one tells you a thing and so you do a little research by yourself and then, you find a lot of documentaries and propaganda footage from that time... and next thing you know, you're one of them... I have a friend of mine who is taking a History degree and, he syas, that when he required cinematic footage from the Germany in WWII besides being hard as hell to get (a lot of explaining was needed in the why did he wanted the tapes), it said in the brggining along those legal advises stuff, that if by anychance he felt attrackted to Hitlers germany while seeing the movie, he should stop seing that immediatly and return the tapes. So, I think that information and correct instruction are the best weapons against Nazism and alikes...

Cheers...

Right, well said. And it's a good thing to know that I'm not the only one who sees it that way.

Like I was saying with the Confederate Flag, which is still in everyday life down south and in a lot of rednecks' pick-up trucks that everybody knows and still knows what it stood for and therefore there is no danger of some un-informed future generation finding out "accidentally" and retaking up the cause. With the associations of the symbol constantly being reminded to us, there's less of a chance it'll respawn.

For Germany to go "cold turkey" on Nazism is more dangerous than keeping the issue alive in discussion mainly just to keep people informed of the history and atrocities committed by the regime.

What keep the Confederate Flag in casual society, not only does it remind people, but it also allows people to more easily identify those people who might rekindle those age ol' feelings and openly chastise them. This is why most people look very negatively upon Klan members. In fact, a lot of white supremacist groups use Nazi propaganda to justify their opinions.

[lecnac]

@Maximus

Its not like we dont get to see any swastikas in our live, we get to see plenty of them in school studying the time, causes and backgrounds to the rise of the 3rd Reich. So the symbols late meaning is out of question and it certainly wont be forgotten since 6 million people arent something you easily forget.

You may not show the swastica publicly to promote neonazism though and thats a good thing. I know that you can run about in the US doing it but I prefer that my government keeps pressure on those who act hostile towards our constitution by neglecting them grounds to air their hate. Like a neonarzist protest march along the recently errected memorial for victims of the 3rd Reich was forbidden. Freedom is one thing but even or especially in democracy one cannot have it at the cost of the dignity and freedom of others.

But let us not lay waste to this mod and its topics with moral discussion. As stated above, I do not debate their right to include the swastica in this historical context.

[DaVinci]

... yes, agree to lecnac's post, i'm a german, too! And you absolutely can't compare the using of the confederation-flag with the swastika of the nazi-regime. Like lecnac already said, neonazi's would like to use this symbol for their propaganda, if they could, also today in Germany ... and in their undergrounds, they use it. These forever-yesterdays-people have the conviction, that the 3rd reich didn't murdered 6 million Jew's and adore lot of nazi-leaders in the public world and simplify the war-crime of many other facts etc.!!! So, maybe, for this example, you could see, that there's no comparision, at least not for the people in germany ... and that's good!

But, anyway, here in RTR, i see also no problem to use this symbol on a shield or in origin ways.

My proposal for the RTR-team is:
In the 6.0 readme, give a little hint to this point ... i think, we all, the community don't want, that some people could say, that this game makes publicity for fashist's?!

[Gaius Antonius]

I will also throw my support behind lecnac and DaVinci. Having spent a good portion of my education focused on WWII and the Holocaust (while not focused on Rome), the main thing that people need to recognize is the historical context to which a symbol is applied. While some might initially belive that this mod is promoting fascism it should probably be noted that there is a clear historical precedent to the use of the symbol and why it was included. Not only would that alay the potential concerns of some, it would give a lesson to those who do not understand the historical significance of the symbol outside of nazi Germany. But as always, I do believe that everyone involved in developing this mod should have final rights on how to handle this issue and trust that the correct decision will be made.