A suggestion for kings

[Orko]

I thought of it and realized - the king on the iron throne does not have much power. Maybe, somehow, you could make the king on the iron throne like the pope. he gives you missions and can declare you as a usurper or something like that.

[stormbringer951]

But we want to be able to play as him as well?

[Tywin Lannister]

I thought of it and realized - the king on the iron throne does not have much power. Maybe, somehow, you could make the king on the iron throne like the pope. he gives you missions and can declare you as a usurper or something like that.

As of a Clash of Kings, the King on the Iron Throne has next to no power.

Joffrey was no Pope, he was defied by almost entire realm and kept his throne only thanks to willing support of Houses Lannister and Tyrell.

[Orko]

As of a Clash of Kings, the King on the Iron Throne has next to no power.

Joffrey was no Pope, he was defied by almost entire realm and kept his throne only thanks to willing support of Houses Lannister and Tyrell.

Just like it happens with the pope in M2? It is the same. He has very little power - like the pope - but can be easily defied.

[Tywin Lannister]

Just like it happens with the pope in M2? It is the same. He has very little power - like the pope - but can be easily defied.

Have you actually read A Song of Ice and Fire books?

If you did, I am surpised you can compare the literary non-existent power that Joffrey had as of a Clash of Kings with the power of the Pope, who had *very much* influence in Medieval Europe; in Total War it manifsts in form of calling crusades, excommunication and potentially dead inquisitors.

Comparing to excommunication, calling some would-be king in Westros usurper is pointless, they *are* usurpers, and none of would-be kings actually have any legal claim to the Iron Throne (except for Stannis, but very few recognize his claim). Declaring that Robb Stark, Balon Greyjoy or Renly Baratheon are usurpers carries as much sense as declaring that raven is black.

The amount of actual power that the King on the Iron Throne has is very well illustrated by Cersei and Tyrion's conversation.

Cersei: "Has father lost his sense? Or did you forge this letter? Why would he inflict you on me? I wanted him to come himself. I am Joffrey's regent, and I sent him a royal command!"

Tyrion: "And he ignored you. He has quite a large army, he can do that. Nor is he the first. Is he?"

[toluas]

calling some would-be king in Westros usurper is pointless, they *are* usurpers, and none of would-be kings actually have any legal claim to the Iron Throne (except for Stannis, but very few recognize his claim). Declaring that Robb Stark, Balon Greyjoy or Renly Baratheon are usurpers carries as much sense as declaring that raven is black.

Well, it depends on your definition of usurper.

If you define usurp as a controversial claim to kingship, it would hardly be possible to define any claim as far as Robb Stark and Balon Greyjoy are concerned.

And if you define usurpation as an illegitimate claim to kingship, you might wanna consider that Renly's claim is exactly as valid or invalid as Stannis' , as both are brothers to the late king Robert. I'm no expert for Westerosi law, but taking Earth's Medieval customs as a rule, there was originally no preference for the eldest son.

[Tywin Lannister]

Well, it depends on your definition of usurper.

If you define usurp as a controversial claim to kingship, it would hardly be possible to define any claim as far as Robb Stark and Balon Greyjoy are concerned.

Neither Robb Stark nor Balon Greyjoy had any claim to the Iron Throne.

Robb, however, *does* have claim for the North, and as a matter of fact, he doesn’t actually claim the Iron Throne, he fights for the North and Riverlands’ independence as a separate kingdom, and in a sense, he is not an usurper.

The legality of Balon’s claim is very well illustrated in a conversation between Cersei and Tywin.

Cersei: By what right does he [Balon Greyjoy] call himself king?”

Tywin: By the right of conquest.

And if you define usurpation as an illegitimate claim to kingship, you might wanna consider that Renly's claim is exactly as valid or invalid as Stannis' , as both are brothers to the late king Robert. I'm no expert for Westerosi law, but taking Earth's Medieval customs as a rule, there was originally no preference for the eldest son.

In Westros custom it is not “preference” for the eldest son, the eldest son inherits, it is a simple as that. Disinheriting the eldest son is not even a simple matter of father’s choice: Randyll Tarly had to force Samwell to join the Night’s Watch (which makes him forfeit his claim for Horn Hill) to disinherit him, he couldn’t simply say that his second son will be his heir.

If the ruler or lord in question has no sons, the ruleship passes to the eldest daughter, if the ruler or lord has neither sons nor daughters – to the eldest brother, who is in turn succeeded by his sons and daughters.

Therefore, if Joffrey was revealed and acknowledged as a bastard born of Jaime and Cersei’s incest, Stannis would be rightful king of Westros (in fact, technically he is, but no one acknowledges that). Renly has no right to the Iron Throne regardless, as Stannis stands next in line to succession after Robert’s children, and this was remarked upon by numerous characters, especially Stannis’ famous:

Good men and true may support Joffrey, believing him to be their rightful king, and some Northmen may even say the same of Robb Stark. But those lords who supported Renly knew him for usurper and still supported him for the promise of power and glory.

(Note: I don’t have the books with me at the moment, so it is not an exact quote, but it was along these lines.)

But that is beside the point. The point is that Joffrey’s (who doesn’t have anyone, not even his allies, obeying him at this point) calling a ruler of some other faction usurper, traitor, etc. would have no bearing on anything. Therefore, giving the King on the Iron Thrones Pope-like powers would be outright wrong: at this point, it is indeed Total War in Westros and only might makes right, and the King on the Iron Throne has very little of it.

[toluas]

Neither Robb Stark nor Balon Greyjoy had any claim to the Iron Throne.

That is exactly what I said.

In Westros custom it is not “preference” for the eldest son, the eldest son inherits, it is a simple as that. Disinheriting the eldest son is not even a simple matter of father’s choice: Randyll Tarly had to force Samwell to join the Night’s Watch (which makes him forfeit his claim for Horn Hill) to disinherit him, he couldn’t simply say that his second son will be his heir.

Would you mind backing up this "knowledge" of Westerosi custom with a quote or two (from the books)?

And as you yourself explain, it is possible that not the eldest (or eldest still living son) succeeds the father. So I would still say that Renly can claim a right to the throne, for all is it worth. (And btw, Renly's claims are surely a lot better than Joffrey's, if he's indeed not Robert's son)

Therefore, if Joffrey was revealed and acknowledged as a bastard born of Jaime and Cersei’s incest, Stannis would be rightful king of Westros (in fact, technically he is, but no one acknowledges that).

I agree mostly, but I think you're wrong to exclude Renly's claims.

Renly has no right to the Iron Throne regardless, as Stannis stands next in line to succession after Robert’s children, and this was remarked upon by numerous characters, especially Stannis’ famous:

I doubt that he has "no right" to the Iron Throne. But maybe you can prove me wrong from the books? I know that might be tough considering the fact that all those POV characters just voice their thoughts and judgements. That is why your quote from Stannis proves nothing, I'm afraid.

But that is beside the point. The point is that Joffrey’s (who doesn’t have anyone, not even his allies, obeying him at this point) calling a ruler of some other faction usurper, traitor, etc. would have no bearing on anything.

If he is Robert's trueborn son, he's the rightful king. That he does lack the means to enforce his claim is entirely another matter. If he's the spawn of incest between the Queen and her brother, Joffrey has only a very, very dim claim as the son of the Queen and Stannis or Renly have much stronger claims.

Therefore, giving the King on the Iron Thrones Pope-like powers would be outright wrong: at this point, it is indeed Total War in Westros and only might makes right, and the King on the Iron Throne has very little of it.

I agree, but that was not what I was referring to.

[Orko]

Have you actually read A Song of Ice and Fire books?

If you did, I am surpised you can compare the literary non-existent power that Joffrey had as of a Clash of Kings with the power of the Pope, who had *very much* influence in Medieval Europe; in Total War it manifsts in form of calling crusades, excommunication and potentially dead inquisitors.

I have read, and the influence is quite similiar. Joffrey has little power because others claimed the throne/declared indipendence. But if you look at the influence of other kings, per se, Robert, then he DID have power. similiar to the pope. there are different factions, each acting by their own, but they are rallied under the same banner - one time by the king on the iron throne, and the other by the pope. You can easily rebel against the pope in M2, you just don't listen to the old fool. Such a thing can be easily done by noble families of westeros as well.

[Tywin Lannister]

Would you mind backing up this "knowledge" of Westerosi custom with a quote or two (from the books)?

Exactly which part of it do you dispute? The fact that the elder son/brother’s inherits before younger?

It is all over the books: Eddard Stark was succeeded by Robb, Gregor succeeded his father as the head of House Clegane, Samwell, despite his personal failings, should have succeeded Randyll as the head of House Tarly (Randyll has to force him to join Night’s Watch to remove him from inheritance ladder).

Do you insist that the second son can succeed before the elder? Then why don’t provide an example?

And as you yourself explain, it is possible that not the eldest (or eldest still living son) succeeds the father. So I would still say that Renly can claim a right to the throne, for all is it worth. (And btw, Renly's claims are surely a lot better than Joffrey's, if he's indeed not Robert's son

)

I agree mostly, but I think you're wrong to exclude Renly's claims.

I doubt that he has "no right" to the Iron Throne. But maybe you can prove me wrong from the books? I know that might be tough considering the fact that all those POV characters just voice their thoughts and judgements. That is why your quote from Stannis proves nothing, I'm afraid.

Renly claim is superior to Joffrey only if he is revealed to be a bastard and not Robert’s trueborn son, and it is hard to prove for certain (about everyone took Stannis’ statement about Joffrey as nothing but an attempt to justify his rebellion). And even if that case, his claim is inferior to Stannis’, it is noted not only by Stannis, but by Catelyn and Robb as well.

And you should note that Renly himself makes no secret of what his “claim” is; when Catelyn disputes his claim, Renly shows her his army’s campfires and says, “Here is my claim, as good as Robert’s”. He meant to be the king by the right of conquest alone. As a matter of fact, he had no idea that Joffrey wasn’t Robert’s trueborn son when he started his rebellion, and doubted that even when he read about it in Stannis’ letter.

I have read, and the influence is quite similiar. Joffrey has little power because others claimed the throne/declared indipendence. But if you look at the influence of other kings, per se, Robert, then he DID have power. similiar to the pope. there are different factions, each acting by their own, but they are rallied under the same banner - one time by the king on the iron throne, and the other by the pope. You can easily rebel against the pope in M2, you just don't listen to the old fool. Such a thing can be easily done by noble families of westeros as well.

Yes, both the Pope in Medieval Europe and Joffrey/Cersei can be defied.

The difference is that if you defy the Pope, he can excommunicate you, call a crusade against you and send rampaging inquisitors into your lands. Joffrey and Cersei can only seethe, but have to watch their tongue when the person who openly defied their orders (Tywin) comes at the head of his army and with his allies Tyrells in tow (who supported an usurper to begin with, but later received lands, honors and castles for “switching back”).

[Werthead]

Yup, it is Westerosi law that the eldest son inherits, and Dornish law that the eldest child inherits. It is said several times in the books, by GRRM in interviews and also in the RPG. You can't get the younger son to inherit unless the elder child joins the Night's Watch or Kingsguard, becomes a septon, gets killed (obviously) or is insane and judged so by the Citadel and a conclave of the great houses (this is how Aegon V ended up on the throne, as one of the people in the line ahead of him was barking mad and was disinherited). Stannis' claim is superior to Renly's, as Renly himself admits in the parley at Bitterbridge in the second book. "You're the rightful king, but I'll be better and I have the bigger army."

Technically, Robert was a usurper in the first place so the 'rightful' ruler of Westeros is Daenerys. Take Daenerys out of the equation, however, and oddly Robert and then Stannis become the rightful heirs, as they are the grandsons of King Aegon V's wife and the closest actual heirs to House Targaryen.

The legalese is of course secondary to whoever has the most support and biggest armies.

[toluas]

You don't seem to get my point.

I do not dispute that after the father's death the eldest son succeeds/inherits (usually). That's why Joffrey is the rightful king, if he's King Robert's trueborn son. (And after Joffrey Tommen would inherit the throne as long as Joffrey has not sired kids.)

I do dispute though that after King Robert's death (assuming Joffrey's not Robert's son) the next in line is Stannis (not more than Renly), because Robert did not inherit the throne. So no eldest son, next eldest and so on. Robert came to power at swordpoint, that's why both younger brothers' claim is equally strong.

Eddard inherited his father's holdings, Gregor his father's, but Robert did not inherit the Iron Throne. And that Samwell Tarly was disinherited by his father speaks for itself; it does not automatically have to be the eldest son. (Because even though Sam went to the Wall and "lost" his inheritance that way, his father persuaded him to go there because he deemed his firstborn to be inept for the succession - obviously secondborns can inherit!)

But let George Martin himself speak:

"The laws of inheritance in Westeros are vague. Outside of Dorne, a man's eldest son is his heir, followed by the next youngest son, and so on. After the sons, most would say that the eldest daughter would inherit but there might be argument from the dead man's brother or a nephew. There are many other questions with murky answers, in particular having to do with the rights of legitimized bastards."
http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Conc...ection/2.3.1./