The Great Spirit - Native American Addition Mod UPDATE VERSION 1.2 RELEASED! Empire 1.3 Compatible

[jackel2168]

I'm also going to have to suggest upping the numbers for darth mod, and probably reducing the range of the projectiles, because they're out ranging some of the more advanced weapons in the game.

[KASCII]

Actually, the bow could outrange the musket, given that the musket couldn't be aimed like a bow. I think the problem is that CA endowed the bow with a little too much long distance accuracy. Most tribes were more melee fighters than stand and fire.

Its interesting reading all the comments and opinions.

[Vonwolfi]

I'm skinning Native Americans like Crazy, and bieng helped by ToontotalWar right now... Be nice to work everything together... Ive done some pretty detailed and researched work already, and the Hurons and Seneca/Iroquoi are done... or atleast the first version is.

I will preview some pics over on toons AmericanMod thread later today, http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=244468

The medicine Man unit all though misnamed, is kinda the berzerker unit already, no? thats how I looked at it when I was skinning it. I was thinkin about makinga full mod myself, and give the Medicineman unit the ability to fear horses, and possibly berserk. Also wanted removal or cost extreme/limit on horse units in north east, and no horse units among the Seminoles in Florida...(Yes, regional unique skin)

I also wanted horse archer units for my Plains tribes, with the same AI as horse archer units in other tw editions, as I've heard alot of the plains tribes prefered fighting in this manner...

looks like we were working towards the same thing independently...


I could post some pics here of the two factions Ive finished too if your interested in combining forces or just interested... ... ?

Just finished them tonight and em kinda giddy

[Irmo]

This seems to be the mod I wished for as soon as I discovered how CA treated the Native Americans - thanks for doing something about their negligence or ignorance!

I'm with several other TWC members in this thread regarding the difference between the tribes. The eastern (forest) tribes should be relatively well equipped with muskets due to their vicinity to white trading partners, but poorly endowed with horses, because they had little use for them in the forest. The western (plains) tribes should be very poorly equipped with firearms (until late in the game), but almost always mounted, and as such very difficult to deal with for any opponent who ventures out in their domains on foot.

I have done this - the Comanche (replacing the Pueblo) are completely horse apart from one unit of melee units. The Iroquois and Huron have some completely new units, including some well named elite units, and I haven't gotten round to the Cherokee just yet (my researcher has had the same problem as you - not as much information as the Iroquois or Cherokee) The Plains (Lakota) are a mix of dismountable dragoon like cavalry, and some infantry (nothing too elite).

If you ask me, no Native American nation should be able to produce artillery units, and this for the following reasons. I find it highly unlikely that the Europeans would sell (many) cannons to them or teach them how to construct such weapons (in all my studies of the American Indian, I've only heard once about a case where the Swedes might have helped the Susquehannocks to build their fortifications with towers and some sort of cannon for sweeping the exterior of the palisade in case of an attack), and the opportunities to capture artillery would be very few and far between - too few and far between to have become an important part of the Indians' arsenal. I think that whenever the Indians captured a fort, it was most often through a surprise attack, not by the use of any artillery to breach the walls.

Several people have told me that the Iroquois, Huron and Cherokee should have artilery due to trade with Europeans. Maybe it is not fully historical, but I think it does add an interesting gameplayelement anyway, even if the Native American artillery is pretty terrible. Once I have the ability to mod technologies in for the Native Americans, I will add a technology that allows artillery - not completely historic, but allows you to have the possibility in the game, if the Natie Americans did get artillery.

Horses did not play an important role among the eastern tribes, either, so, for this reason, I would have done away with them completely also for these nations, for the benefit of game variety as well. Instead, the warriors of these tribes would stand out in melee and musket marksmanship on foot. This due to their upbringing and life as hunters and warriors since the earliest days of childhood.

Done this. The only horsemen these tribes get is dismounted, showing their prefrence for fighting on foot.

In contrast, the Plains nations could be completely mounted, with a clear advantage in open terrain, but only a few units dismountable and weaker than average (compared to the eastern warriors) on foot.

The Plains are about half mounted at the moment, with dismountable cavalry, while the Comanche are completely mounted (Horse Lords of the Southern Plains)

I have also some suggestions about the naming of the Native American units. "Berserkers" is a term that originates in the occasional behaviour of the Vikings, and so completely off target, culturally. Better to use the names of the subgroups of the tribes to distinguish between the different types of units, and add an unique sense of each. In case of the Iroqouis, that could result in an army of "Cayuga Warriors", "Onondaga Warriors", "Oneida Warriors", "Seneca Warriors" and "Mohawk Warriors" (the Tuscarora tribe did not become a proper member of the Iroquois Confederacy until 1722), the first being shooters and the last melee units, for example (I'm not saying that the tribes specialized in this way, but, if I remember right, the Seneca and the Mohawk had the reputation of being the best and most fearsome warriors in this confederacy). For some variety here, one could replace "Warriors" with "Hunters", "Archers", "Warclubs/Warclubmen", "Half-Knives" (signifying young boys who haven't yet earned the status as warriors but still can fight with an utterly fearless eagerness to achieve this status that makes up for their lack of experience) or "False Face Society" (medicinemen wearing freaky wooden masks, although I doubt they partook in war expeditions as such in reality; we might allow ourselves some license in this respect for the purpose of game fun, but that would disregard the sacred value these masks have for the Iroquois themselves today still; however, this could be worked around by making up fantasy masks of similar design with no meaning for anyone) etc.

For the "Hurons" (who more accurately should ce called the Wyandots), we could have "Arendahronon (Rock) Warriors", "Attignawantan (Bear) Warriors", "Attigneenongnahac/Attiguenongha (Cord) Warriors", "Tahontaenrat/Scanonaerat (Deer) Warriors", and "Ataronchronon Warriors" appearing (the latter comprising of Wenro and Algonkin refugees taken up by the original confederacy of four tribes). The Plains Nation could be understood as the Teton (western prairie) Lakota, and then we would see "Sichángu/Brulé Warriors", "Hunkpapa Warriors", "Miniconjou Warriors", "Oglala Warriors", "Oohenonpa/Two Kettle Warriors", "Itazipcho/San Arcs Warriors", and "Sihasapa/Blackfoot Warriors" in their ranks. But the Lakota also included two more divisions, one eastern forest-dwelling branch called Santee, from which "Mdewakanton Warriors", "Wahpeton Warriors", "Wahpekute Warriors" and "Sisseton Warriors" could spring forth, and a central (prairie) division including "Yankton Warriors" and "Yanktonai Warriors". The Lakota were allied with the Arapaho and the Cheyenne, and if these tribes are allowed into the game, we could face, for instance, the famous "Dog Soldiers" (Hotamétaneo'o) on the battlefield, a warrrior society of the latter tribe.

If we decide to keep the Pueblo Indians in the game for some reason (but then they would have to have a mix of mounted and non-mounted warriors, neither generally very good compared to the other Indians, since they were more inclined to engage in peaceful activities), then they might be best portrayed according to their many language groups: Tewa, Tiwa, Jemez, Piro, Keres, Zuñi and Hopi. The Cherokee are more difficult to represent in the above way. They were divided into three groups according to dialect and location, but I have yet to find their own names of major subgroups, if they had any. Best way might be to name their different units according to some of their towns and villages, e.g. Echota, Stikayi, Oconee, Ustanali, Tellico etc.

More could be said about all this, but it'll do for now.

Do you want to work on the mod as a researcher/concept? The more the better, as I do need a lot of information for naming of units. I have a very good researcher at the moment, but it would never harm to have another one helping. As for the suggestions there,I have done new names for Iroquois and Huron, and if you want to be a researcher, you could draw up some large unit rosters for me to make. You could be a very big help! Please PM me if you are interested.

(Don't worry - I have changed beserkers names to 'Crazy Dogs' - a real society name accordiong to wiki )

BTW, regarding the Fog of War encountered with this mod, the following expert advice might be useful:

You are brilliant!!!!! I didn't notice this before - my solution was to take away FOW altogether, but that seems to take away FOW faction specific. I will edit this now, and I will do the 40 min upload a bit later

EDIT : Unfortunately, this is for save games, not for the starting game . I really had my hopes up there for a second

Edit: Oops, just discovered that this mod has already been updated! My comments may then have become obsolete. Sorry

Don't worry - what you has said has been very, and I mean VERY helpful, even if I have done some of what you said already.

I'm skinning Native Americans like Crazy, and bieng helped by ToontotalWar right now... Be nice to work everything together... Ive done some pretty detailed and researched work already, and the Hurons and Seneca/Iroquoi are done... or atleast the first version is.

I will preview some pics over on toons AmericanMod thread later today, http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=244468

The medicine Man unit all though misnamed, is kinda the berzerker unit already, no? thats how I looked at it when I was skinning it. I was thinkin about makinga full mod myself, and give the Medicineman unit the ability to fear horses, and possibly berserk. Also wanted removal or cost extreme/limit on horse units in north east, and no horse units among the Seminoles in Florida...(Yes, regional unique skin)

I also wanted horse archer units for my Plains tribes, with the same AI as horse archer units in other tw editions, as I've heard alot of the plains tribes prefered fighting in this manner...

looks like we were working towards the same thing independently...


I could post some pics here of the two factions Ive finished too if your interested in combining forces or just interested... ... ?

Just finished them tonight and em kinda giddy

I would love to work together with you! Please upload your skins, and send me a link to them, and I will credit you and shower you with an inconcievable amount of rep.

If you want to work on the mod as a skinner, please PM, I need some more skinners to create some more skins for all the new units that have come out, and will come out.

So in short : me want work with you ( I am very interested)

[LenniX]

so i downloaded the new mod but i really dun see these 30new units): did you add the new ships btw?

The Great Spirit <3

[Wild Rover]

I found very annoying bug when playing custom battle with the Powhatan confederacy. If I order my horsemen to dismount, the game crashes.

[Irmo]

@Lennix They are spread out over the 5 factions - not all of them have the same unit roster

@Wild Rover Is that the same for all of the factions when trying to dismount, or only Powhatan? And which unit specifically?

DAMN! That is an annoying bug - all factions all units. Apart from saying 'dont't dismount', I don't know what to do. They seem to run forward indefinitely, and when you tell them to move somwhere else, the game crashes. . Will try a campaign battle a bit later to see if it is the same there, but it probably will be

[LatinoPR]

I found very annoying bug when playing custom battle with the Powhatan confederacy. If I order my horsemen to dismount, the game crashes.

I experienced this too but not only with the Powhatan.
On another note some of the natives riflemen don't have rifles but don't recal wich.
(edit) the moh and iro have guns but can't fire

[Wild Rover]

Looks like it is only for Powhatan. I just played a battle with the Comanche, and no problem this time.
Perhaps it was problem with the unit. When playing Powhatan, i tried to dismount Chief`s War Party. When playing the Comanche, I didnt have option to dismount them.

EDIT: I tried with Lakota now. I could dismount every unit with this ability, even Chief` War Party, without any problem.

[Irmo]

es, you won't have the problem with the Comanche, because they can't dismount, but Cherokee, Iroquois, Huron, Inuit and Plains can. And that is very annoying.

[Irmo]

THE BUG HAS BEEN FIXED! !

It was changing a few '4s' to '5s' - not too difficult . Am uploading the new one (and the new DM one), but it does take between 40mins and 1 hour, so wait a bit.

It's up, only took half and hour!

[EmperorBatman999]

Wait, can you post the screenies of the new units?
Also, can you work on UI display flags to match Cherokee and Comanche flags?
Edit:Some of my archers (Hunters I think), once they got a cheveron, prolly not even then, it said they were firing arrows but they were just moving their bodies around, not even raising their bows.

[Vonwolfi]

I would love to work together with you! Please upload your skins, and send me a link to them, and I will credit you and shower you with an inconcievable amount of rep.

If you want to work on the mod as a skinner, please PM, I need some more skinners to create some more skins for all the new units that have come out, and will come out.

So in short : me want work with you ( I am very interested)

Good good! Toon is trying right now to get my Hurons and seneca into the game and factionally playable, he said he will have them probably done tommorow. I will post pics when theyre ready.

I would love to skin for a project like this, just let me know what units you need and I'll get to work!! And of course theyres no assumption you'll want to use them straight away, imput and improvments are always welcome!!

Pm me what you need and what you'd like to see outta the units you need covered, and I'll start playin w/ them!!

[Dono1979]

Very nice work! Looking forward to this mods progression, it has great potential to open up an entire facet of the game that was previously simply (sadly) fluff!

[Dono1979]

Just to poke both parties....

Have you spoken with the guys doing Imperial Splendor at all? They have done some fantastic work with reworking and may be able to give you some pointers or suggestions to make your rework easier. In addition you may want see if your work is complatible and if so look at getting in on IS 2.0?

Cheers
Dono

[Irmo]

Good good! Toon is trying right now to get my Hurons and seneca into the game and factionally playable, he said he will have them probably done tommorow. I will post pics when theyre ready.

I would love to skin for a project like this, just let me know what units you need and I'll get to work!! And of course theyres no assumption you'll want to use them straight away, imput and improvments are always welcome!!

Pm me what you need and what you'd like to see outta the units you need covered, and I'll start playin w/ them!!

I will see exactly which units you have done first, before I start compiling a list . Thanks a lot. (have you reskinned the vanilla units as well such as the archers, mounted braves etc?)

Just to poke both parties....

Have you spoken with the guys doing Imperial Splendor at all? They have done some fantastic work with reworking and may be able to give you some pointers or suggestions to make your rework easier. In addition you may want see if your work is complatible and if so look at getting in on IS 2.0?

Cheers
Dono

I have made a compatibility with DM, so I assume I could do it with IS. The main problem I see with IS is the startpos, but to be honest, they have all the NA factions playable w/ victory conditions, so I should be able to draw up some compatibility update in the projectile tables and units_stats_land tables.

[Raeven]

I'm a big fan of what you're doing here, and I'm looking forward to see where it goes. Everyone seems to have already made lots of really apt and informed comments so there's little left for me to say, as it seems only a matter of time before this turns into a unique and necessary addition to any installation of Empire, so all I'm here to ask for is a version of your startpos that's compatible with TRoM, even one that's just merged, if anyone knows how to do that or could tell me how to go about it or a program that might do it for me, that'd be much appreciated. Thanks.

Raeven

[EmperorBatman999]

Can you do the UI flags for Cherokee and Comanche to match the flag on GC/ in battle?
Also, can you please post screenshots of the 1.1 update units?

[Megas Methuselah]

Things are still a little vague at the moment, but we've got more skinners, we've got unique unit rosters for a couple different tribes (most of which are getting a complete make-over in the long run), and we got the will to do this. All we need is time.

[Dono1979]

Ok, tried to install the mod, as soon as I go to start a new campaign it crashes. Unselected it with Mod Manager and tried to stat a new Campaign again, crashed. In fact I have now removed all mods and did a validation with Steam and it still crashes when trying to start a new campaign :-(

Any ideas, I will be reinstalling, but I seem to recall I have seen someone else with this problem with a different mod, any one had this and know of the problem?

Cheers
Dono