Suggestions for new content for RR/RC?

[YD23]

By somewhat work what I mean is that every now and then a line spoken by a unit or even in a diplomacy screen will be in the accent and not in native language. For example, I enter into a diplomatic screen with the French. Various proposals and opening speech are in French, like intended by the mod. But when saying goodbye the French diplomat will say his line with an accent in English.

The mod was transferred to 6.1, which worked brilliantly; 6.4 works, but not 100% properly, because of many changes from 6.1-6.4. The problem lies somewhere within the text sound files, but I usually work with graphics and not scripting, so I couldn't fix it myself.

[ihranator]

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=225499

Got a mightyfine Norse roster over there. Also you could check out Polycarpe's norse and scotland rosters.

[k/t]

That mod has already been suggested, but there was a problem. I think it was that DLV doesn't give permission for its units, so we will be jacking BG's stuff.

[Ichon]

RE-POST with some edits from SS forum.


The basic pike militias were usually a later development once the Swiss and others demonstrated the power of pike columns militia began drilling as pikemen more often than as spear/shieldmen.

If all you see are pike militia for the first 100 years than some of the complaints of people saying pikemen are underpowered are almost justified as those guys can stop most cavalry except the late super heavy cavalries when even with halberd militia in the ranks the cavalry will usually win unless the terrain greatly favors the militia but it can be a very close battle. The heavy cavalries do usually lose against the better pike units especially with halberds in the ranks.

Truthfully I am not quite sure if pike militia deserve a place in the game like they have... the Swiss were basically pike militia. Just very well drilled and obligated to serve. I'd prefer there were more Swiss companies around as mercenaries- they fought in almost every major campaign for a 200 year period and were often the dominant force or the later Landsnechts and other well trained pikemen. The pikemen militias were later development based on the domination of the more professional pikemen that were rather quickly made obsolete by massed missile fire.

If you read the accounts of the battles the Swiss were often known for their very rapid advance while maintaining formation. How they are portrayed in the game is as a slow phalanx type advance. Other than that though I think PB's most recent efforts got the balance nearly perfect. Just need to tweak availability and speed a bit.

So Swiss Halberds and Pikemen being available in Swiss and N Italy around 1350s and then in following years more widely available(N Italy, France, S Germany) while Pike and halberd militia availability moved back a bit and gradually spreading further than central Europe. Then Landsnechts become available around 1430-1450 in S Germany and then spreading around central Europe in even greater availability but not quite the stats or morale of the Swiss.

Then if Swiss and other professional pike formations might be found some way to have them move faster while keeping formation?

The 100 years war and the plagues had huge affects on how wars were fought in Europe. First the 100 years war and the constant wars in Italy established professional soldiers strong enough to challenge the Feudal elites. The plagues and resulting lowered manpower and increased worth of a man in his soldiering years for other economic activities also helped break the feudal system where it still existed (since that system was never as widespread as I would believe from my high school history classes). So the 1300s should be the breaking point from earlier feudal eras where tactics are recycled when soldiers become more professional and a warrior elite is no longer the leaders of the nobility as most are educated and traveled after Crusades and the Church is spread through Europe. The next major changes are in the economy to support more massive armies and the advent of relatively cheap weapons that empowered more poorly trained soldiers- crossbows, handguns, etc though the professional soldiers remained the core- for a true campaign of conquest the massive basically mercenary (as few served from Feudal obligations but instead for pay)levies were necessary as garrisons and to pacify regions while also participating in battles.

[rusnmat]

My suggestions for RC/RR:
1) Remove free upkeep from nobles in settlements and to add upkeep to bodyguard units ( right now there is no upkeep costs for BG , just wages to generals).
In my opinion, it doesn't make sense for nobles to have free_upkeep even though due to historical facts that nobles were not paid, but granted land in medieval times.
Then following this logic we shouldn't get income from some settlements since they would be giving to nobles. Since we do get income from every settlement under players controls, nobles should have an upkeep. BG units should also be paid. Having free upkeep makes game much easier for a human. It is more logical to have no free_upkeep than to have units with free upkeep as bodyguard units, some nobles or militia and then come up with ways how to deduct funds from a player ( by a script as BGR). That would be a very quick fix to the existing files.

2) Making defense skills for medium and top quality higher which will lead to longer, more realistic battles. At the same time further decrease elite/noble units sizes to represent lower availability of these units. Those adjustments will make units have the same power, but different feels. Fighting as more elite troops in lesser numbers.

[Ichon]

2) Making defense skills for medium and top quality higher which will lead to longer, more realistic battles. At the same time further decrease elite/noble units sizes to represent lower availability of these units. Those adjustments will make units have the same power, but different feels. Fighting as more elite troops in lesser numbers.

I think CHIP mod is moving in that direction. If it works out that might be cool to add to RC but for now its enough to keep the adjustments on the current system.

Upkeep for BG is fine with me. I almost always play with BGR which has nobles costs which reflect that but you are right that it doesn't make sense that BG get free upkeep. How much were you thinking? Since I don't know if its possible to make the changes different fro FL BG which is quite large compared to a non FM BG which is less than half that size.

If we use other HC as comparison then normal BG upkeep would be between 300-400. Half the upkeep for a full unit of HC as BG has less men and for factions that start with 2 BG and only 2-3 regions like Lithuania that would be a significant cost- 600 upkeep that is currently free.

[rusnmat]

I am on CHIP team I would say keep upkeep for BG per man at 25-40 % higher than compatible heavy cavalry. The first reason that they are bodyguards, second for the auto- replenishment status of BG.

As I recall, with BGR you just pay extra for unit recruitment , but upkeep is free at castles.
To deal with upkeep will be much for difficult than just paying once a few hundreds fl with BGR.

For larger BG units as FMs, program already auto recalculates upkeep costs, just by using per man cost. That would be an extra challenge to play for a small factions. But if that would be too difficult for an average player, we can always increase kings purse for smaller factions.

[Ichon]

I am on CHIP team I would say keep upkeep for BG per man at 25-40 % higher than compatible heavy cavalry. The first reason that they are bodyguards, second for the auto- replenishment status of BG.

As I recall, with BGR you just pay extra for unit recruitment , but upkeep is free at castles.
To deal with upkeep will be much for difficult than just paying once a few hundreds fl with BGR.

For larger BG units as FMs, program already auto recalculates upkeep costs, just by using per man cost. That would be an extra challenge to play for a small factions. But if that would be too difficult for an average player, we can always increase kings purse for smaller factions.

So something like 20 per man on BG? So that would actually be 300-700 depending on size of the BG. That could work. Would definitely reflect the current worth of BG though I would prefer that the battlefield impact of BG be reduced instead or as well. Higher defense, lower charge and melee, smaller numbers, etc.

With BGR you pay extra for upkeep and each general pays supplies and some other costs and upkeep is free in castles but usually that is quite poor way to use the units that you have to pay so much for and are much harder to recruit since you can only have 3 PTS and WC to recruit with.

Well it is getting to the point there are many, many good ideas but some are mutually exclusive. So I think I'll watch the various mods in development and see what ideas work best then hopefully be able to integrate them.

[k/t]

How much does each general get as a salary right now? If it's a lot, then it's enough, since he would use the money not just on himself but also to equip his guards.

[Polycarpe]

from my researches, each general bodyguard were having a wage around 4-5 Shilling a day (around 1220). 1 Florin worth 6 Shilling. And of course, they are full time soldier. Technically, they should have a wage of 3650 Florins (for a full year. I've largely round up the value and X10 for 10 bodyguards).Pretty expensive (in game you will just be ruined with the FM). But SS timeframe is much too high, that's why my mod works on a timeframe of 4TPY cuz normally, the wages were counted per 90 days. Do not forget that each type of unit have different number of "active day". For example, the knights were "summoned" for around 30-40 days per 3 months (and it was kinda high for most of them) so they would have the big buck since each knight were payed 2-3 Shilling per active day. The only real unit category that should have the free upkeep attribute is the Militia only. Levy and Local, you summon them, knights as well. Professional, well they are full time soldier (the Late Professional and Bodyguard). And "Early" professional is a special case since the are full-time but are often mercenaries since most of the time, they have more loyalty to war itself than their faction.

[Ichon]

Well obviously MTW2 economy is not based on actual numbers. Would be cool if it were but the numbers would be quite large. I figure its usually at least 1% or less of real costs.

[rusnmat]

So something like 20 per man on BG? So that would actually be 300-700 depending on size of the BG. That could work. Would definitely reflect the current worth of BG though I would prefer that the battlefield impact of BG be reduced instead or as well. Higher defense, lower charge and melee, smaller numbers, etc.

With BGR you pay extra for upkeep and each general pays supplies and some other costs and upkeep is free in castles but usually that is quite poor way to use the units that you have to pay so much for and are much harder to recruit since you can only have 3 PTS and WC to recruit with.

Well it is getting to the point there are many, many good ideas but some are mutually exclusive. So I think I'll watch the various mods in development and see what ideas work best then hopefully be able to integrate them.

Yes, it is better just to have a smaller size BG units ( 8-10 men in EDU entry - that is the size for non FM general) And it's kind of silly to have BG units defeating armies especially in the early campaign.
Using BG cost in EDU would be much more accurate than paying through BGR script, since with EDU entry costs calculated per man, with BGR it is the same cost for the F leader BG and non FM BG.
There are many good things about BGR script, but those extra script costs could be either dropped or
still used for an extra player difficulty
What will have a greater impact on the game is having no free upkeep for nobles. Right now players can just park a few nobles units without any upkeep nor any reduction in income from settlements ( if case if the land and settlements were given to nobles as in Medieval times).

[Polycarpe]

I've succeed to adapt historical wage (at the limit of my researches)and cost for units in this Guide. Download the guide and you will see it, but it's for a setup of 4TPY but can be adaptable to 1TPY but with more work though.

[Ichon]

I've succeed to adapt historical wage (at the limit of my researches)and cost for units in this Guide. Download the guide and you will see it, but it's for a setup of 4TPY but can be adaptable to 1TPY but with more work though.

That link did not work.

[Polycarpe]

Ok, nvm, easier to attach it to the post, take a look.

[ihranator]

http://wotw.lefora.com/2011/06/17/wa...eline-2/#post0

Fixed it for you

[Ichon]

Well the cost for Feudal knights comes out to be something like 940 recruitment cost and 575 upkeep on large units at 46 men. I would suggest it might be much, much easier if you convert the English currency measures to Florins. Having to go between shillings, Pounds, Pence, and Florins was a bit annoying and makes it very easy to get the math wrong.

I'll do a few more conversions later to see how things work out. That above is really close to base current recruitment cost but raises the upkeep about 1/4th which I think is low for most mounted units. A horse would eat as much grain as 2 men. Knights that had a war horse, a pack horse, and a riding horse + a riding horses or mules for his grooms/retinue/squires could take as much grain as 8-10 men depending on size of the retinue. And that is just food, not including wages since food was not paid for out of wages at that time. Include the cost of the wages for all, and the initial mounts and equipments costs and knights should probably cost at least 6x a semi-professional man at arms. Which following this for a good company of men at arms based on large units size of 91 where recruitment cost is about 440 and upkeep is 230. Currently its set at 480 270 which is a tiny but higher and is actually less than half the cost of a mounted knight.

I think following the 6x rule then a feudal knight might cost around 1,100 (cost of extra horses/ponies for knight, equipment like saddles for war horse, riding horse, and pack ponies, and equipment for his retinue) rather than 940 and upkeep of around 700 instead of 575 as feeding all that raises upkeep costs.

I think the costs of some weapons seem rather low. Nobles weapons probably cost far more than your average man at arms though I agree nothing close to good armor. The major cost I see missing is for saddles for the mounts. A good saddle especially for a lancer was expensive.

[k/t]

So Swiss pikemen should walk as fast as other units with comparable armour, professional pikemen should walk a little slower than the Swiss (but still way faster than they do now) and Pike Militia a little faster than they do now?

[Ichon]

So Swiss pikemen should walk as fast as other units with comparable armour, professional pikemen should walk a little slower than the Swiss (but still way faster than they do now) and Pike Militia a little faster than they do now?

Swiss, Landsnechts, maybe Flemish? Not all of the professionals should get rapid offensive movement but Swiss charge was quite devastating apparently and the offensive advance even when not charging is what made the Swiss so deadly. Very high morale helped as well but it was bolstered by knowledge of capabilities and for a long time never suffering defeat.

So Swiss having a high charge value and being able to move as fast as comparably armored units would make more sense. Other pikes should still fight well in position with pikes braced but Swiss and Landsnechts and maybe a couple others should be able to move rapidly in an advance and actually have quite effective charges for infantry.

[Erunion Telcontar]

Is it possible to allow a unit (specifically, the Swiss Pikeman) to run while in Spear Wall formation, or is it impossible to change the no-running while in formation thing? Because Allowing the Swiss to run in formation would really make them a unique and deadly offensive unit.
Probably not possible though, but eh, I'm no modder.