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Thread: Suggestions for new content for RR/RC?

  1. #1

    Default Suggestions for new content for RR/RC?


    I am looking for suggestions for additional content to add to the RR/RC compilation mod. The current plan is:
    • Agents minimod (added)
    • Faction Generals minimod
    • Knights of St Lazarus from Lord_Calidor's KT mod to replace Knights of Antioch for Crusader States
    • 1370 Historical Campaign with playable Timurids, also using Rozanovs's suggestions for map updates and changes to Lithuiania and Hungarian rosters
    • Pagan Mongols
    • Italian Wars mini-campaign by JaM (if he is still around)
    • AI deploy stakes by Germanicu5, and other battlefield scripting he can come up with - could be very interesting
    • A set of slightly different AI battle files (based on Germanicu5's BAI), one of which will be randomly chosen before each campaign battle, to create a more unpredictable AI opponent
    • Rusichi Mongols / Russian units at some point
    Please post any ideas you may have for further additional content.
    Last edited by Point Blank; April 28, 2009 at 04:06 PM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Suggestions for new content for RR/RC?

    I'm sorry i keep saying this but what about Rhodes Palace Guards( I think it would be good if they were made available to all christian factions [whoever controls Rhodes])? You could add a building like the palace of Rhodes that could train them kinda like how you train Canons of the Holy Sepulchre.
    Also, Magyar mod may be good idea for next release for redone Hungarian roster (i think you could incorporate it if you got permission).
    If the mind serves the Battle for the Baltic Team came up with a unit that replaced Christ Knights for the Teutonic Order, you might think about adding that.
    I think it would be cool if you added a unit like this: link and possibly a unit like this for the Knights of Santiago guild like this: link.
    Edit: PB what about the Faction Crown mod would they not let u use their mod?
    Last edited by Asparagus; April 28, 2009 at 11:47 PM.

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  3. #3

    Default Re: Suggestions for new content for RR/RC?

    Emergent KoJ for early campaign.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Suggestions for new content for RR/RC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Asparagus View Post
    Also, Magyar mod may be good idea for next release for redone Hungarian roster (i think you could incorporate it if you got permission).
    Have tried and been denied.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Suggestions for new content for RR/RC?

    KoJ has been merged with KT into the Crusader States in the early campaign, which now starts at 1100.

    Asparagus: might add Rhodes guard, but not sure if its worth the slot. I'd like to add the Rusichi Mongols, which means that they would need extra slots to differentiate them from then Timurids probably. Don't know if dome would give his permission to use Magyar Mod, he will only authorise it for 'historical' mods, though IMHO RR is reasonably 'historical', especially considering the inclusion for mods such as 1100, CBUR and BFTB. In fact no other mod tracks the changes in technology and unit types so thoroughly. The crossbow unit looked good, that might fit in very well because at the moment some factions are using the Aventurier model for late crossbowmen, and that new one looks more appropriate. I'm planning to put Faction Crown mod in.

    EDIT: oh, dome has officially denied permission? Oh well. Hmm, and I gave him permission to use the RC animations for his mod too.
    Last edited by Point Blank; April 29, 2009 at 12:25 AM.

  6. #6
    Gorrrrrn's Avatar Citizen
    Join Date
    Jan 2007

    Default Re: Suggestions for new content for RR/RC?

    I do hope we can have christian Lithuania and muslim mongols in the 1370 and later campaigns.

    (preferably with priests with a slower conversion rate)

    have several other factions to do re rosters - have done the notes but arms are knackered so will have to delay typing them up.

    Generally more AoR units recruitable by all factions, remove from base rosters if necessary.

    Remove hashishim from all rosters and replace with dismounted hasham for those islamic factions that don't already have them.

    Remove east african units from moors roster and replace with recruitable west african units (they'll need to be done by someone though.)

    Remove canons of holy sepulchre from roster.

    Revise remnants of the Irish roster - remove muire, horseboys, ridire as unhistorical units and archers (with exception of norse archers recruitable for a while in Dublin.)
    make Irish rebels purely Irish units.

    (Very late period you'll need pike, sword and buckler and calivermen for irish rebels)
    (pike, halberd, musket for english)

    remove scots guard from Scottish roster.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Suggestions for new content for RR/RC?

    Thanks Rozanov, those are all very good suggestions, will aim to implement them all. Any ideas for west african units? Mr Dell will be here to fix my laptop in 1 hour so then I can get started

    Removing the Canons will make it very tough for the Crusader States in early campaign, but as you say that certainly isn't a historical unit.

    English have pikes/halberds/muskets already
    Last edited by Point Blank; April 29, 2009 at 07:10 AM.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Suggestions for new content for RR/RC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Point Blank View Post
    EDIT: oh, dome has officially denied permission? Oh well. Hmm, and I gave him permission to use the RC animations for his mod too.
    I would not say officially but he stopped responding to me, so I guess that says lots.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Suggestions for new content for RR/RC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Point Blank View Post
    Removing the Canons will make it very tough for the Crusader States in early campaign, but as you say that certainly isn't a historical unit.
    My new city units are aimed at making cities more like MTW and I am adapting it for England, France, HRE and the crusaders. Maybe this will help. I was tired of cities being so useless..only spear militia until the third tier? A city with 12000 people cant do better than that?
    Last edited by Awellesley; April 29, 2009 at 08:51 AM.

  10. #10
    Navajo Joe's Avatar SS Forum Moderator
    Join Date
    May 2008

    Default Re: Suggestions for new content for RR/RC?

    How about the Garrison Script? I think it is realistic to expect townfolk to rise up and fight the aggressor, certainly make the human player, think very carefully about the size and composition of force required. KK vhas included it in Third Age from the outset.
    Stone Forts, I really liked them in 6.1 and Kingdoms
    Last edited by Navajo Joe; April 29, 2009 at 09:32 AM. Reason: Extra

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  11. #11
    Gorrrrrn's Avatar Citizen
    Join Date
    Jan 2007

    Default Re: Suggestions for new content for RR/RC?

    West African units:

    although a wargaming site this list may prove useful:

    this synopsis for book looks the biz. (Too expensive to buy though!)

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Editor: John Powell, Cumberland College
    ISBN: 978-1-58765-000-0
    List Price: $194

    August 2001 2 volumes 790 pages 8"x10"

    Weapons and Warfare

    West African Empires

    Dates: 400-1591 C.E.

    Political Considerations
    In the period from 400 to 1591, West Africa saw the rise and fall of the indigenous kingdoms and empires of Ghana, medieval Mali, and Songhai. Although many other petty states and kingdoms arose in West Africa during this time, only Ghana, Mali, and Songhai achieved the status of full-fledged and long-lived conquest states and expansionist empires, for which contact-era Islamic and European documentary histories are available.

    Ghana’s emergence as the first of the West African empires ultimately set the stage for subsequent developments identified with the establishment of the kingdoms of Mali and Songhai. In each instance the intensification of trade along the trans-Saharan trade network was a critical factor underlying the expansion, influence, and institutionalization of the military orders of the day. In fact, much of the wealth generated to support the maintenance of professional armies—documented by various Islamic writers to have ranged between 40,000 and 200,000 soldiers each—was derived directly from the military and police protections afforded foreign travelers and merchants on the trans-Saharan trade corridor. With the advent and spread of the Islamic faith out of North Africa in the eighth century, new forms of commercial, religious, social, cultural, and military interaction transformed the social and political landscape of West Africa. In some instances, as with the reign of Mansa Mns3 I of Mali (1312-1337 C.E.), Islamic influence transformed the organizational structure of the empire and the administration of justice and launched the religious wars of the Islamic jihad. Subsequent kings and kingdoms either waged war under the doctrines of the Islamic tradition or sought to eradicate the Muslim tradition altogether, setting the stage for much of the military history of the kingdoms of Mali and Songhai until the emergence of the European slave trade and the introduction of firearms. These latter developments in turn fueled a long-standing pattern of internecine warfare that ultimately depopulated entire towns and regions subject to West Africa’s colonial-era encounter with European merchants, militarists, and slave traders.

    Military Achievement
    Military achievement during this period centered on the emergence and mobilization of professional armies and cavalry forces; the formalization of military protocols, organizational structures, propaganda, and tactics; and the adoption of new military technologies, fortifications, and weaponry. Whereas the primary achievements ascribed to the kingdom of Ghana center on the fact that it was the first of the western Sudanese empires to establish large professional armies for the maintenance of law and order over a vast territory, the medieval kingdom of Mali in turn contributed to the formal development and mobilization of cavalry forces in the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries in order to command the battlefields of the savanna and sahel regions of West Africa. Both within and beyond the context of indigenous warfare, the kingdoms of Songhai and Benin, among others, further advanced indigenous armaments, protective armor, fortifications, tactical mobilizations, and, ultimately, the adoption of firearms.

    The combined impact of the Islamic faith and the deployment of cavalry forces on the military culture of the era were most forcefully felt during the reign of the Malian king Mansa Mns3 I. Mansa Mns3 undertook the military expansion of Mali and the concomitant control and taxation of the trans-Saharan trade in salt, gold, ivory, ebony, pepper, and kola nuts. His primary contribution was the military incorporation of the Middle Niger River region into the kingdom of Mali through the use of cavalry forces and professional armies. In addition, his conquests ultimately led to the control and incorporation of the important mercantile centers and cities of Timbuktu and Gao, the trans-Saharan trading town of Walata, and the salt mines of Taghaza to the north. During Mansa Mns3’s reign the territory of Mali was doubled in size, and the capture and control of the primary salt- and gold-producing areas of the region secured the empire’s wealth and stability. So famous were the cavalry exploits of Mansa Mns3’s day that one of the more notable art forms of this time consisted of relatively large terra-cotta figures of mounted cavalry troops replete with padded body armor, backpacks, elaborate helmets with chin straps, and a variety of weapons including swords and javelins. Ultimately, Mansa Mns3’s conquests and his organization of an imperial form of government transformed Mali from a regional to an international presence, with Malian ambassadors posted in Morocco and Egypt.

    The kingdom of Songhai provides another prominent body of documented achievements in the use of light cavalry for the purposes of territorial gain and empire building. Malian and Songhai battle formations, or mandekalu, entailed the use of light cavalry forces bearing padded armor, spears or javelins, and imported swords. Such forces were highly effective in combat with enemy soldiers within the range of the savanna; however, these same cavalry forces were far less effective in the forested areas to the south of the Niger River or within tsetse-fly-ridden regions where horses were vulnerable. This was clearly the case for the Mandekalu horse warriors of the Mali Empire, whose realm was largely restricted to the West African sahel and savanna woodlands through much of the period extending from 1100 to 1500 C.E. Following on the heels of the cavalry were the infantrymen, who typically bore full armor, iron-tipped spears, and poisoned arrows.

    Ultimately, the development of sophisticated military organizations, advanced strategies and tactics, effective diplomacy, and weaponry of the kingdoms of Mali, Songhai, and successor states of West Africa, was such that these kingdoms largely dictated the conditions of European and Arabic commerce in West Africa well into the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries.

    Weapons, Uniforms, and Armor
    The earliest indigenous forms of combat relied largely on the deployment of shock weapons, including short-handled wood, stone, and iron-tipped thrusting spears; javelins; iron swords; protective headgear; and bamboo shields. The use of these weapons provides a clear indication that hand-to-hand combat was a key strategy both in the sahel and savanna and in the jungle-shrouded landscapes that contained the West African kingdoms. As did the armies of other societies engaged in jungle or desert combat before the advent of firearms, those of the West African kingdoms employed thrusting spears and other shock weapons. To this ensemble of shock weapons were added projectiles, or “missile weapons,” in the form of the hunting bow and iron-tipped arrow, which was a critical innovation for those infantry that accompanied the cavalry corps late in Ghana’s military history. Much of this early weaponry constituted the warriors’ toolkit for centuries to come. Primary innovations centered on the transition from stone-tipped wooden arrows and spears, and bows and arrows, to iron-tipped projectiles in these same categories. The slingshot has also been documented among the weaponry utilized in combat within and between the West African kingdoms. The addition of North African, Spanish-Moorish, and German steel sabers and swords to the growing arsenals of West African weaponry indicates the growing international status and wealth of West African armies.

    The kingdom of Mali eventually standardized its warriors’ battle regalia and uniforms, as did the kingdoms of Ghana, Songhai, and Benin. In addition, Malian rulers introduced the so-called Honor of the Trousers. According to the twelfth century Arab author al-4Umart (1301-1349), who chronicled the history of the Mali Empire, “Whenever a hero adds to the list of his exploits, the king gives him a pair of wide trousers, and the greater the number of a knight’s exploits, the bigger the size of trousers. These trousers are characterized by narrowness in the leg and ampleness in the seat.” Combat insignia and ethnic accoutrements were also characteristically donned by warriors, and the role of insignia, such as feathers inserted into headgear, was intended to signify rank and status within the battle formations. Fifteenth century Bini swordsmen were depicted in brass castings wearing an elaborately standardized protective armor that included armored helmets, spiked collars and breastplates, massive curvilinear swords, and war-hammers.

    Military Organization
    According to one Muslim history of West Africa, the Songhai military, known as the Tarikh al-Fattash, was organized under the aegis of three full-time commanders or generals. The dyini-koy or balama was the commander of the army, the hi-koy was the admiral of the war-canoe fleet, and the tara-farma was the full-time commander of the cavalry forces of the empire. Each of these commanders and his respective subordinates was identified by his uniform, clothing, and insignia.

    West African kings typically rose to power through either inheritance or demonstrated success as a military leader, conqueror, or facilitator of a coup. All military organization and support in West African kingdoms was directly subject to the order and mandate of the ruling king in his capacity as commander in chief. The organizational culture of each kingdom’s armies varied according to the nature of the military mobilization. Slaves or other captives often served a critical support function during major military operations. Although professional armies were often renowned for their cavalry corps, they often included tens, if not hundreds of thousands, of infantrymen, backed by slaves who facilitated the movement of cargo and supplies necessary to the deployment of troops in long-distance engagements. The combination of infantry, cavalry, and naval corps proved a highly resilient and organizationally effective military method for maintaining the long-term stability of the West African kingdoms of Mali and Songhai.

    Doctrine, Strategy, and Tactics
    The doctrines, strategies, and tactics that characterized West African warfare varied considerably through time, reflecting cultural and technological influences that impacted the region through the course of nearly twelve hundred years of human interaction. The earliest recorded wars and military mobilizations of the Ghanaian peoples centered on the protection of the all-important salt trade. However, the nature of war and weaponry in West Africa evolved in response to the growing significance of iron for tools and weapons, the capture of war captives for the slave trade, and the mining of gold for commercial exchange with Arab and European merchants. Ultimately, the protection of the kingdom and its long-distance trade networks and merchants led to the formalization of professional armies and the formation of special military units within the kingdom. Despite this changing relationship between the king and his soldiers, Ghana is thought to have depended largely on civilian reserves for the mobilization of standing armies. The later kingdom of Mali expanded the role of the professional soldier and created large standing armies as well as highly disciplined cavalry forces. The kingdom of Songhai clearly epitomized the changing nature of military practice: Songhai’s unceasing pattern of territorial and political expansionism served to justify the role and status of its formally institutionalized military.

    Throughout the course of West African history, religious doctrine served to define and redefine the nature and transformation of military doctrine, political organization, and, ultimately, conquest interactions with neighboring states. Whereas Ghana was the dominant power of the western Sudan from 700 to 1000, the Islamic domination of North Africa and the growing role of Islam in West Africa provided a catalyst for the intensification of professional soldiering and the protection of trade with Arab merchants. Given the growing penetration of Islamic thought and culture in West Africa, the military took on a police function where trans-Saharan trade was concerned. During this period, although the protection of trade remained of paramount concern, the advent of the Islamic jihad, or holy war, signaled the beginning of wars devoted to spreading the Islamic faith and eliminating infidels, or nonbelievers. With the rise of Mali, the military took on an expansionist function, conquering the city of Gao and consolidating control over the salt and gold trade. The heavily Islamic character of Mansa Mns3’s reign reflected a long-standing pattern of Islamic influence and status. On one hand the adoption of the Islamic tradition in Western African kingdoms increased social and cultural cohesiveness over a vast geographic region and brought about a new era of prosperity. On the other hand, the scorched-earth policy of empire building and the role of the jihad ultimately fed the decline of the kingdom of Mali and, subsequently, that of Songhai.

    Medieval Sources
    Early Arab and Muslim accounts of the culture, society, technology, militarism, and urban settings of the West African kingdoms are among the most authoritative and complete. Such accounts include those of the eleventh century Arab geographer al-Bakri (died c. 1094), who describes ancient Ghana in The Book of Routes and Kingdoms; and Mahmud al-Kati, a Muslim scholar who authored the Tarikh al-Fattash, or History of the Sudan, which was largely incorporated into the accounts of Ibn Mukhtar in his publication of the Tarikh al-Fattash. Among the most important historians of later periods of the kingdoms of Mali and Songhai are Ibn Battuta, a fourteenth century Muslim traveler, and al-Wasan ibn Muwammad al-Wazz3n al-Zaiy3tt (c. 1485-c. 1554), also known as Leo Africanus, who authored the fifteenth century chronicle of Songhai, History and Description of Africa and the Notable Things Contained Therein (1526).

    Books and Articles
    Brooks, George E. Landlords and Strangers: Ecology, Society, and Trade in Western Africa, 1000-1630. Boulder, Colo.: Westview Press, 1993.

    Connah, Graham. African Civilizations: Precolonial Cities and States in Tropical Africa, an Archaeological Perspective. New York: Cambridge University Press, 1987.

    Davidson, Basil. African Kingdoms. New York: Time-Life Books, 1971.

    _______. West Africa Before the Colonial Era: A History to 1850. London: Longman, 1998.

    Law, Robin. “Warfare on the West African Slave Coast, 1650-1850.” In War in the Tribal Zone: Expanding States and Indigenous Warfare, edited by R. Brian Ferguson and Neil L. Whitehead. Santa Fe, N.Mex.: School of American Research Press, 1992.

    McKissack, Patricia, and Fredrick McKissack. The Royal Kingdoms of Ghana, Mali, and Songhay: Life in Medieval Africa. New York: Henry Holt, 1994.

    Martin, Phyllis M., and Patrick O’Meara, eds. Africa. 3d ed. Bloomington: Indiana University Press, 1995.

    Phillipson, David W. African Archaeology. Cambridge, England: Cambridge University Press, 1985.
    Ruben G. Mendoza

  12. #12

    Default Re: Suggestions for new content for RR/RC?

    I bet it won't be, but if there are some new battlemaps mod it may surely be good.
    Burning men, blood mod, skymod, grassmod and any visually enhancing gameplay mod - i think should be included.

    P.S about the latest RealyBadAI of germanicu'5, these aswell

    And keep up the good work mate. That's the most important thing to include.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Suggestions for new content for RR/RC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Awellesley View Post
    My new city units are aimed at making cities more like MTW and I am adapting it for England, France, HRE and the crusaders. Maybe this will help. I was tired of cities being so useless..only spear militia until the third tier? A city with 12000 people cant do better than that?
    That sounds great, cities are indeed somewhat dull unit-wise until later tiers.

    I'd like to know what more people think about garrison scripts. If one was included, I don't think its good to make it generate too many (or good quality) units.

    Info looks good Rozanov, maybe we could borrow some units from Africa: Total War?

    Burning men, Crimson Tide, Better Grass (minus the daisies) are in already.

    Germanicu5's newest AI will definitely be in, along with his AI deploy stakes script.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2009

    Default Re: Suggestions for new content for RR/RC?

    I haven't understood
    This thread is about the new content of the latest version of RR\RC so that you could add more?

  15. #15

    Default Re: Suggestions for new content for RR/RC?

    Its suggestions for new content for the next update and beyond.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Suggestions for new content for RR/RC?

    Ok, heere goes.

    Battlefield music file.

    PB, as you asked, attached one of the remixed music file for the battlefield.
    Hope players will like them, made last year actually for previous v. of SS.

    Have fun.

    edit: i think i'll remix the second one. doesn't sound too medieval actually.
    Last edited by ShadowBane; April 29, 2009 at 02:51 PM.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Suggestions for new content for RR/RC?

    New Music + more loading screens, and another unit for the early era Norway roster to make them feel a little more vikingy. Also, better AI if possible. Stone forts and a garrsion script

  18. #18
    Lord Derfel's Avatar Biarchus
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    San Francisco

    Default Re: Suggestions for new content for RR/RC?

    Hey Point Blank, I am glad to hear your considering Faction Leaders mod as this is one of my favorite sub mods. I would also like to request Faction Crowns mod as the crown anciliaries increase the depth of the campaign.

  19. #19
    maxstill's Avatar Semisalis
    Join Date
    Apr 2008

    Default Re: Suggestions for new content for RR/RC?

    maybe reskins for all the factions

  20. #20

    Default Re: Suggestions for new content for RR/RC?

    Oh, only all the factions?

    Faction Leaders and Crowns will be in.

    Plenty of new loading screens available from Archer29 in the thread in this forum.

    So, after getting my laptop fixed tonight by the Dell engineer, it burned out again within 4 hours of use. That makes 5 times now.
    Last edited by Point Blank; April 29, 2009 at 04:30 PM.

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