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Thread: So I found out I'm part Belgian

  1. #41
    Frankie88's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: So I found out I'm part Belgian

    Some causes of the Belgian revolt in a nutshell.

    The union of Belgium and the Netherlands into the United Kingdom of the Netherlands after the Congress of Vienna between 1813-1814 brought two very different states together. The northern king and gentry saw the southern provinces as a gain of Dutch territory. Belgium was catholic and had a strong catholic hierarchy, the United Provinces were calvinist ever since the start of the spanish revolt in 1568. Whene Willem I tried to nationalise the appointment of catholic priest in the 1820s people got pissed off. Also belgium was more industrialised more modern and had a larger population then the Netherlands. And ofcourse the belgian elite did not like to be treated as inferior. On top of all this Willem I used a very complicated financial system to fund public works(and his own wallet) which was generally miststrusted by the belgians. Influenced by the Enlightenment and the recent dethronement of the French king Charles X the revolt kicked off in august 1830. Militarily the revolt was defeated by the Dutch but because of some stupid Dutch politcal moves the Belgians soon gained support from the French and got their own independant country.

    Quite a bad summary read wiki or a book .
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  2. #42

    Default Re: So I found out I'm part Belgian

    I recently found out that I was descended from East Africans. Could somebody help me find some info about East African history as I do not know much. Any East African people around here?


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  3. #43
    2CV's Avatar Laetus
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    Default Re: So I found out I'm part Belgian

    Quote Originally Posted by Frankie88 View Post
    Some causes of the Belgian revolt in a nutshell.

    The union of Belgium and the Netherlands into the United Kingdom of the Netherlands after the Congress of Vienna between 1813-1814 brought two very different states together. The northern king and gentry saw the southern provinces as a gain of Dutch territory. Belgium was catholic and had a strong catholic hierarchy, the United Provinces were calvinist ever since the start of the spanish revolt in 1568. Whene Willem I tried to nationalise the appointment of catholic priest in the 1820s people got pissed off. Also belgium was more industrialised more modern and had a larger population then the Netherlands. And ofcourse the belgian elite did not like to be treated as inferior. On top of all this Willem I used a very complicated financial system to fund public works(and his own wallet) which was generally miststrusted by the belgians. Influenced by the Enlightenment and the recent dethronement of the French king Charles X the revolt kicked off in august 1830. Militarily the revolt was defeated by the Dutch but because of some stupid Dutch politcal moves the Belgians soon gained support from the French and got their own independant country.

    Quite a bad summary read wiki or a book .
    It's not that 'the Dutch' really wanted Belgium added to their country. The distrust worked both ways. But you can add 'not representative parliamentary' to your list (Belgium had more citizens, yet the split was 50/50).

    @ Gaius: I understand the point your making, but I hardly think he was pointing to that elite that speaks/spoke French, but more the Walloons. The language has, indeed, never really been a problem, as almost the whole of the Dutch elite spoke French (allthough if a Walloon burps, he speaks of an 'accent flamand' - whether that says something about Walloons or Flemish/Dutch French speakers is up to you to decide).

    It would be good if we merged again, in many cases we already cooperate and this whole 'nation' and 'state' idea is redicilous anyway. I wouldn't care less to be under the rule of a 'German', 'Belgium' or 'French' person, as long as he/she acts on behalf of the constructed (because it is nothing more than constructed - read Schumpeter) volonte generale. I think that The Netherlands has responded very wrongly to the Belgium rebellion and that the fault or cause of it does not generally lie with the people of the Southern Netherlands, but with the attitude of the Northern ones. If 'we' (imaginary community, I know), The Dutch, would change our attitude, see what we did wrong and learn from those mistakes; I can not see what obstacle would lie for our cooperation, because both of us are small and weak, but economically strong. We could at least speak to Europe and the world with one face.

  4. #44
    Phalanx300's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: So I found out I'm part Belgian

    Quote Originally Posted by Maraud View Post
    Yeah.... No.

    Read up on your history, your knowledge of our split is severely lacking.
    Not really, your probably are seeing your response.



    Greatly said 2 CV.

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    Frankie88's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: So I found out I'm part Belgian

    Quote Originally Posted by 2CV View Post
    It's not that 'the Dutch' really wanted Belgium added to their country. The distrust worked both ways. But you can add 'not representative parliamentary' to your list (Belgium had more citizens, yet the split was 50/50).
    Well 'the Dutch' was a bit vague I admit but Willem I certainly wanted Belgian territory 'added' to make the Netherlands into a respectable power in Europa again.

    It would be good if we merged again, in many cases we already cooperate and this whole 'nation' and 'state' idea is redicilous anyway. I wouldn't care less to be under the rule of a 'German', 'Belgium' or 'French' person, as long as he/she acts on behalf of the constructed (because it is nothing more than constructed - read Schumpeter) volonte generale.
    Thats just theory and completely off topic.
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  6. #46
    2CV's Avatar Laetus
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    Default Re: So I found out I'm part Belgian

    Quote Originally Posted by Frankie88 View Post
    Well 'the Dutch' was a bit vague I admit but Willem I certainly wanted Belgian territory 'added' to make the Netherlands into a respectable power in Europa again.
    Yes, well Willem I's personal vision wasn't that well received in the Northern Netherlands. If you would read Dutch press at the time, they were mostly very negative. They found that the Belgiums were Roman Catholic and a bunch of them spoke French. Weaklings who missed the Dutch sailor spirit.

    And who cares about the off topicness; it was a response to some ponating the idea of merging.

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    Default Re: So I found out I'm part Belgian

    Quote Originally Posted by Phalanx300 View Post
    Not really, your probably are seeing your response.
    Oh yeah, despite my studies on it my knowledge is of course lacking compared to a random Dutchie who still believes it was the evil francophones who thwarted his glorious Diets empire.

    The reunion was doomed from the start; society, economy, religion,... had all grown too far apart in the centuries before. Language was more of an afterthought than a real issue.


    As for a new reunion: I prefer the Walloons. I have nothing in common with Dutchies, not even language.
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  8. #48
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    Default Re: So I found out I'm part Belgian

    and as a extra our second king had plans to invade netherland but he died before he could invade it
    i read it in my newspaper
    iam a belgian

  9. #49

    Default Re: So I found out I'm part Belgian

    Quote Originally Posted by jankren View Post
    I recently found out that I was descended from East Africans. Could somebody help me find some info about East African history as I do not know much. Any East African people around here?
    It means your black or brown.

  10. #50
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    Default Re: So I found out I'm part Belgian

    Quote Originally Posted by jankren View Post
    I recently found out that I was descended from East Africans. Could somebody help me find some info about East African history as I do not know much. Any East African people around here?
    I also have East African descent. Pretty far back though.
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  11. #51
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    Default Re: So I found out I'm part Belgian

    Isn't Belgium more or less a made-up country? Though named after a tribe of Celts (or were they Germanic?) who live approximately in the area. At least not a very unified one, as they seem to not get along very well, I think the elected prime minister once thought the Marseillaise was the national anthem.

    Anyway for Belgian history the first thing that pops into my mind is the so-called "Rape of Belgium". Named so mostly in sensationalist British media (read propaganda). Belgians, and some northern French, were the victims of the first great atrocity of WWI. Basically the Germans wanted to get through Belgium quickly, and they were afraid of [I]franc-tireurs[/I (civilian snipers that the Germans had had trouble with during the 1870 war with France), so they got all their troops riled up on how all Belgians owned guns and how they were egged on by militant priests to do terrible things to captured and wounded German soldiers. Thousands, between 6000 and 8000 I think it was, of civilians were executed (with no evidence ever being brought up of them attacking the Germans, in the cases that the Germans did think they were shot at by Belgian civilians it was almost exclusively shots fired by retreating Belgian and French soldiers), and many thousands more deported into Germany and placed in internement camps (some of the young men were forced to do forced labour in the German industry). In addition alot of property was destroyed, sometimes the Germans would simpy torch entire towns or villages. In Leuven they burned the old library destroying all the irreplacalbe Gothic and Renaissance scripts housed there.
    Sad thing about the Rape of Belgium was that it was so sensationalized and exaggerated by allied propaganda (horrible as it was to begin with) that after the war people came to believe that it was all made up, that it didn't really happen. Only recently have American and British scholars begun to take it seriously again.
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    Default Re: So I found out I'm part Belgian

    Quote Originally Posted by That White Guy View Post
    Recently found out that the grey area in my family history (my dads maternal side) were Belgian. Could somebody help me find some info about Belgian history as I do not know much. Any Belgian people around here?

  13. #53
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    Default Re: So I found out I'm part Belgian

    Quote Originally Posted by Randarkmaan View Post
    Isn't Belgium more or less a made-up country?
    That's what nationalists like to spread, but not more than most countries really. The Southern Netherlands have been a political entity for 500 years, and before that they were part of the Low Countries, which is another 700 years.


    Though named after a tribe of Celts (or were they Germanic?) who live approximately in the area. At least not a very unified one, as they seem to not get along very well, I think the elected prime minister once thought the Marseillaise was the national anthem.
    Belgae are a bit hard to classify, I think the current view is that it was a loosely affiliated federation (a big word for what it really was) of both Celts and Germans, the more East you went the more Germanic they were. The elites were probably celticised, names seem to point that out, while the population was probably more Germanic.

    The not getting along is a bit exaggerated, the ones who get in the news are mostly the extremists from both sides.

    Anyway for Belgian history the first thing that pops into my mind is the so-called "Rape of Belgium". Named so mostly in sensationalist British media (read propaganda). Belgians, and some northern French, were the victims of the first great atrocity of WWI. Basically the Germans wanted to get through Belgium quickly, and they were afraid of [i]franc-tireurs[/I (civilian snipers that the Germans had had trouble with during the 1870 war with France), so they got all their troops riled up on how all Belgians owned guns and how they were egged on by militant priests to do terrible things to captured and wounded German soldiers. Thousands, between 6000 and 8000 I think it was, of civilians were executed (with no evidence ever being brought up of them attacking the Germans, in the cases that the Germans did think they were shot at by Belgian civilians it was almost exclusively shots fired by retreating Belgian and French soldiers), and many thousands more deported into Germany and placed in internement camps (some of the young men were forced to do forced labour in the German industry). In addition alot of property was destroyed, sometimes the Germans would simpy torch entire towns or villages. In Leuven they burned the old library destroying all the irreplacalbe Gothic and Renaissance scripts housed there.
    Sad thing about the Rape of Belgium was that it was so sensationalized and exaggerated by allied propaganda (horrible as it was to begin with) that after the war people came to believe that it was all made up, that it didn't really happen. Only recently have American and British scholars begun to take it seriously again.
    The Brits exagerated it a bit to get their populace's support behind it, there's some nice propaganda posters about it as well.
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  14. #54

    Default Re: So I found out I'm part Belgian

    Quote Originally Posted by Manco View Post
    Belgae are a bit hard to classify, I think the current view is that it was a loosely affiliated federation (a big word for what it really was) of both Celts and Germans, the more East you went the more Germanic they were. The elites were probably celticised, names seem to point that out, while the population was probably more Germanic.
    Well the problem is that our main source on the subject is Caesar. Despite its importance, the Bello Gallico was a propaganda-effort. Most importantly Caesar needed a clear reason as to why he stopped at the Rhine: everything beyond it wasn't Gaul, I don't give a damn. The end. Of course the reality is more complicated. We know that on both sides of the Rhine we had 'germanic' tribes as well as 'celtic' tribes, not necessarily on the side they should be - according to Caesar. The biggest problem is that archeology does not speak and that cultural artifacts are generally the same, so they don't immediately can be labeled this or that. Afaik there was sort of a consensus that in the days of Caesar we are probably dealing with celtic-speaking germans on the other side of the Rhine (in the Netherlands that is) while in the days of Augustus we are dealing with germanic-speaking germans. That's what our archeologists think anyways.
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  15. #55
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    Default Re: So I found out I'm part Belgian

    Actually my sister helped in a few of those digs while she was still studying to become an archaeologist.
    I just didn't want to go into much detail. Especially since some research now seems to suggest that the Belgic settlers in Britain might have been Germanic as well, which would actually mean that quite a few of the 'Caesarian' Belgae might have spoken a Germanic language earlier than thought.

    But the entire division into Germanic and Celtic is a bit wonky at times, and pretty much arbitrary.
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  16. #56

    Default Re: So I found out I'm part Belgian

    Quote Originally Posted by Manco View Post
    But the entire division into Germanic and Celtic is a bit wonky at times, and pretty much arbitrary.
    The biggest problem where a man like Caesar only adds to the confusion. Protohistory is a .
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  17. #57
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    Default Re: So I found out I'm part Belgian

    Quote Originally Posted by Manco View Post
    But the entire division into Germanic and Celtic is a bit wonky at times, and pretty much arbitrary.
    This may be a little off-topic, but what, appart from the language, is the difference between Celtic and Gemanic tribes? I'm curious to find out, since I haven't read much about those tribes yet.
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  18. #58

    Default Re: So I found out I'm part Belgian

    Quote Originally Posted by Charontas View Post
    This may be a little off-topic, but what, appart from the language, is the difference between Celtic and Gemanic tribes? I'm curious to find out, since I haven't read much about those tribes yet.
    Well in short you could pose that the Celtic tribes in the middle and southern parts of Gaul were the most materially developped, had a higher standard of culture. For example in the nothern part (the lands of the Belgae) you would find no cities (oppida) or even significant large settlements. There was little influence here from the Mediterranean, for example the Aedui chieftains were keen to drink wine, imported from for one Italy. You'll have a hard time finding a Bellovaci chieftain having amforas of wine though. This also affected the political consequences. Whereas the north had a tendency towards the appearance of kings and stronger single rulers, the southern parts of Gaul had a tendency towards a more 'democratic/republican' approach. The Aedui for one had elected officials and there famous leader Dumnorix held a rank comparable to that of a consul. As for the Rhine area, you'll find little difference in material terms between what would be a celtic or germanic settlement. That is only natural since both groups were in constant contact with each other. Caesars account of the Germans is faulty at best and based more on hearsay then anything else. He had of course a clear reason for doing so, as he was fighting a war for his political career. Take the example that supposedly there was no sufficient, actually none at all, agriculture in the german lands to support a larger (roman) army, this was simply dead-wrong.
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