Suicide

[Faenaris]

A friend of mine committed suicide a couple of years ago and I still miss him everyday.

So, do you think that suicide is 'good'? Or is it a selfish act? Discuss.

[the Black Prince]

hard call... very hard...

from the point of view of the people he lieaves behind, his freiends and family, the people have to "clear up" after him, i guess it can seem harsh


but to be fair, his own point of view must not only be considered, but given priority. i would imagine he had his reasons for doing it, perhaps felt driven to, or in desperation, out of guilt or lonliness or despair. there are many reasons why someone would want to do so, especialy at a younger age, and while it is particularly sad and grievous that it happens, to say that they were wrong to do so, or should not have done so musty only serve to further tarnish their memory.

everyone has that ultimate choice, if they no longer have any reason to live, if every day is a pain and a burden that becomes to great to bear... they can decide, it is for them, and them alone to decide.

[GodEmperor Nicholas]

It is a horrible thing that in the best of all possible worlds, would never happen.

But think--there are things worse than death. If someone has no desire to live, then it is a personal decision. They should be allowed to live as they choose, as should they be able to die that way.

NM

[Xiaodun]

Every person has their choice to live their lives as they choose, unless it seriously disrupts the lives of others. Yes, people I belive, do have the right to end their own lives. However, as long as they have contracts to people of this world, they are not allowed to end their own lives unless they fufilled the contract.

This statement will probably be bashed for being too inhumane, but I seriously belive in this little philosophy as I have for the past several years

[Last_Crusader]

It depends- does the suicide confilct with the achievement of a will ( a.k.a life goal) held by one of the living? If yes, then suicide is immoral, if no then this is not the case. This is what my newly formed belief in morality as the conflict of wills tells me, as it is impossible for the dead's wills to be impinged to create balance.

[Carousel]

I'm not sure. I just hope that no-one commits suicide without fully thinking it through. I mean, sure your life may be tough and theres something that haunts you every second of every day, I can see why some people may wish to take thier own life in that event. Theres other factors too though. I mean, suppose one of your loved ones finds you? Isn't that going to in turn haunt them every second of every day? Would you really want to shift that to another person? It's a vicious circle. You life may be so bad that you take your own life, which in turn can make other peoples life bad and thus in extreme cases maybe even make them want to kill themselves.

I'm sad to hear about your friend Battle Knight. It's never easy when you lose someone you care about, but he was your friend, I'm sure he wanted nothing but happiness for you.

[Portuguese Rebel]

Somehow i don't see myself doing it... Kill myself? No way, unless i was with a terminal illness and suffering too much but that isn't really the same thing is it? :mellow

[smack]

Its not 'good' or 'bad', of necessity. It is always sad though. I too had a good friend kill herself a few years ago. I still get mad at her from time to time, but then again, she's always giving me advice: "What would Rachel say to this?" I ask sometimes. And somehow I hear an answer.

What I want to know: Why the frack is suicide illegal? That is one thing I'll never understand.

The only 'contract' that matters is the one between a person and themselves or their God. Indebtedness to society seems pretty shallow in comparison. Do people die without ever having 'lived'? Do people live on when they are no use to anyone or themselves? There are no absolutes in that terrain, only mountains.

[Carousel]

What I want to know: Why the frack is suicide illegal? That is one thing I'll never understand.

Yes I know. Arrest them, that'll make them feel so much better about themselves :getlost

[Peachy Carnehan]

Originally posted by smack@May 14 2005, 07:18 PM
What I want to know: Why the frack is suicide illegal? That is one thing I'll never understand.

Are you sure it is still? I thought they changed that.

So, do you think that suicide is 'good'? Or is it a selfish act? Discuss.

I don't know whether it is good or bad, but I would say it is a selfish act, most of the time. I know a couple people who have killed themselves, just recently in fact. I suppose we can't really look into their mind, but I imagine that most of the time they are killing themselves for their own 'bennefit' or 'relief' or however you want to put it. That in itself doesn't make it bad, however, but its not something I can ever see myself doing. Ever. It really depends on what is good and what is bad, and I hardly feel I can say one way or another. It seems that it should be bad, but then again...

[Scrappy Jenks]

I struggled with suicidal thoughts myself for a long time. In the end, I could never view it as the right choice to make though. No matter how bad life is or seems it gets better. I can understand why others give into their despair as I came near to making plans for it myself. However, I do think that parents with dependent children should commit suicide. I really do think that that is selfish.

[Lord Tomyris]

Suicide is the easy way out; selfish, and bad for the economy also. Any suicidal thoughts I may entertain are rapidly squashed by a notion that it would be an egocentric act. My friend keeps trying to commit suicide for trivial reasons:

-Unrequited love from a girl he has seen for five minutes while he accompanied me on a visit to a girlfriend of mine's school
-Unrequited love from a girl he had only seen a photo of on my computer (The Queen of Trousers on this forum)
-Unrequited love from a girl whom he met at a party when she was drunk
-Unrequited love from a girl whom he has spoken to over MSN and never met

The annoying thing is that when he was walking home with me the other day, he told me he had a gut feeling that he loved Girl 3, and that his gut feelings are never wrong. 15 minutes later, we're on MSN; and he starts looking at pictures of Girl 4. He then tells her he wants to meet her because he has a gut feeling that he will love her, and proceeds to ask if he's allowed to say that he loves her yet. He does so. Twenty times.

So you see, I do my best to dissuade him from suicide as he simply cannot interchange his love between girls (all of whom he has hardly even spoken to) so swiftly, and therefore his claims to suicide are empty.

[nowonmai]

suicide is a permanent solution to temporary problems.

[Faenaris]

Suicide is the single most individual choice a person has. "Should I end my life or should I not?" It is certainly not a simple question and people who do it, doubt until the very end whether they should do it. But, it is still their choice for it is their life. Suicide-bombers who go out in a blaze of glory hurt others, which is not the intention of a true 'suicidal' person. It is their life that 'sucks', not the life of so called others.

Problem is, reactions and oppinions regarding suicide are mixed. Some people think it is selfish, others think it doesn't solve nothing and others think that is their choice. They are all valid reasonings and none is better than the other. The true problem with suicide is that those people want to be helped. They give signs that are often not noticed or disregarded. Even at the very end, they still want someone to stop them, to talk to them, to listen to them.

Now, I do disagree (not completely, but to a fair degree) with Nowonmai. Suicide is a permanent solution, but the problems are not temporary. When a person commits suicide (which is very negative expression to say "a person who killed himself/herself", it sounds like commiting a crime), it is because there was a last drop. Like a filled bucket can flood because of a couple of drops, so can a person end his life. Suicide because of 1 reason is very rare. More often it is a combination of factors : Arguments at home, trouble at school, 'depression'. They start to concentrate on the bad things and forget the good things. A depression has the same 'cause' and depressions are also a major factor in suicides. But, it is certainly not a temporary problems. My friend lost his father (he committed suicide as well), he had health problems (the hypofyse didn't work well), he had troubles at home because he now had to make sure that the house was clean, he had to look out after his younger brother ... It was a negative cirkel and it was very hard for him to get out of it. Sure, I tried to help him where I could. But I had never thought that he would kill himself.

Which brings us to the people who are left behind. They have the heaviest burden : guilt and the 'not knowing'. "Why?" is the most commen question heard with relatives and unless the deceased has left a 'farewell' letter, nobody knows the motive of the suicide. And sure, the relatives will be frustrated, even angered. I was at one point and there were times I was swearing and cussing and screaming, but that all dissappeared. That's because I know it was HIS choice, not mine. We can only talk with those suicidal persons and try to understand them. But we cannot say : "You can't do it, you would hurt others too much." They know that already, it is in their mind and it often makes them doubt.
Hell, even I have had suicidal thoughts. Only when I thought about family and friends did I change my mind.
Also, people don't know how to approach the relatives. When I went back to school, only two people of an entire group of friends and classmates asked how I felt. They just stick their heads in the sand and excuse themselves by saying : "What can I say to make them feel better?". It is true, you can't. But if you at least show you care, if you show that they know, if you show that you will help that person, that means a LOT to them. Just asking : "How are you?" or "Do you want to talk about it?" means more than gold at that moment. Nobody knows how to deal with it, but just listening and showing you care is the best thing one can do.

It is not wrong to have suicidal thoughts : they make you re-evaluate your life and make you think hard and deep about your decision.

So, in conclusion : It is their choice and we cannot judge them.

@ Carousel : Thanks for the kind words.

@ Tom : "Suicide is the easy way out; selfish and bad for the economy"
The economy is going just fine. In some countries (including mine), suicide is THE cause of death for teenagers. The economy doesn't suffer, it will only suffer when it is on such a grand scale that the big bosses CAN'T ignore it anymore. Here we have 3 suicides a day, which means 1095 dead people in a year. But compare that to a population of 10 million and everyone knows that the economy will be just fine.
And, forgive my language, but you don't give a **** about the economy when a friend dies. I didn't and I imagine everyone will when in the same position.

[Lord Tomyris]

Understandably, I don't think anybody would care less about the economy when a close friend commits suicide; I was just speculating from an isolated point of view. But you are right; I have reviewed the situation and concluded it certainly wouldn't affect the economy, as there are many more deaths from non-suicidal instances.

[Ardeur]

In dealing with tragic topics such as this, it can be difficult to be honest. Tact tells us that rather than be brutal with our honesty, we should do as much as possible to make the victims of tragedy feel better. And that's really good advice. So BattleKnight, and anyone grieving over a loss such as this, all I can tell you is that plenty of people have been in your shoes, I know I have, and what got me through it was to stop thinking about the death, and focus my mind on the person that lived.

Regardless of what a person's perspective is, it's NEVER so bad that killing one's self is the answer. There are always alternatives, but sometimes the alternatives seem so bleak, that the best option appears to be suicide. Thoughts of, "I should have done better, I should have been more of a friend" will haunt you forever if you let them. In the end you need to realize that you can't force a friend to think a certain way. If they really believe with all their heart that they've got nothing going for them, or that there is no way out, then there is little you can do other than what you are already doing. I've been on both sides of the coin, as someone who has stood moments away from taking his own life, and as someone left behind when a loved one does it.

Is suicide good? Bad? Well that depends on perspectives. When a soldier or police officer purposely puts them selves in a position where they will die in order to protect others, we call it heroic. When a lonely, depressed person puts themself in a position where they will die, we call it tragic.

My personal view is that since suicide is the killing of a person, it is a form of murder. The sad thing is that since the murdered is the murderer himself, he has no chance to seek forgiveness for what he's done. But that's just my opinion, take it or leave it.

[Legio XX Valeria Victrix]

Originally posted by deathdoom56@May 14 2005, 03:28 PM
Every person has their choice to live their lives as they choose, unless it seriously disrupts the lives of others. Yes, people I belive, do have the right to end their own lives. However, as long as they have contracts to people of this world, they are not allowed to end their own lives unless they fufilled the contract.

This statement will probably be bashed for being too inhumane, but I seriously belive in this little philosophy as I have for the past several years

It's not that I disagree with you on this, I just wonder if you could explain what you mean by "contract." The usage of that word is probably what's stumping me, but I think otherwise I'm in agreement.

To anyone who has ever dealt with suicide personally, my heart goes out to you, I am lucky enough never to have experienced it. The closest I have ever come to seeing it firsthand is a friend of mine making ambiguous jokes about killing himself, ones you can't tell where they're serious or not. Thankfully, he didn't.

Anyways, my views on suicide are that it's not right or wrong, because what in this world is 100% wrong. Certainly things are, but not many. Suicide, in my own opinion, is that it is calling it quits on life, and through personal experience I have seen that life is never predictable. I think in most cases of suicide, if the person had just held out and gave life more chances they might have solved their problems. I can't possibly imagine a situation in which I'd want to kill myself, but that doesn't mean other people think that way. I think people who commit suicide suffer from a lack of persepective. No matter how bad one's life gets, its pretty certain that someone else has it worst, and as morose as that is, it helps. I think people who ignore that fact and assume that theirs is the worst life ever are much more likely to commit suicide.

But then there's the idea that life is a gift, and that you shouldn't take your own because it's not yours to take. This doesn't fly with me. I can exchange a gift after I get it, can't I? It is ultimately one's own choice, good or bad. There shouldn't be litigation against suicide attemtees, that won't solve the problem. If a person wants to do it that bad, they will eventually.

But as far as good or bad goes...I just can't say.

[Invoker]

Again, a difficult question. I personally am against suicide, namely because I think most people who contemplate and attempt it are not thinking with as much clarity as one should be thinking when contemplating such an act.

I myself tried to commit suicide once. This was some time ago, but things were going bad for me as they always were. No real friends, people treated me terribly, I had depression, several other mental issues as well, honestly I began to contemplate why I existed, considering I couldn't find anything good in my life. I got involved with this girl, real terrible person honestly, who completely destroyed me, and in the end I tried to kill myself. Luckily, I failed, and I decided to get help. Now, several years later, I can not even believe I was in that situation. Everything has changed, and I love my existence.

I find that suicide isn't always a good solution. Why? Because your life changes, a lot. The best thing to do is to persevere (sp) and wait another day for the sun to rise. Looking back, I realize I wasn't thinking clearly, and I don't think many of us who try to kill ourselves think things through very much.

I think its a poor solution to your problems, and given that we do not know what comes after death with certainty, I think it becomes a sort of blind leap into some vast void. Also, the pain you cause to others by your actions and the effect of your suicide are much more than you realize at the time you contemplate such an act.

Just my thoughts, is all.

[Count of Montesano]

I've lost a close family member to suicide, and in the years since I've become convinced most suicides really died from a tragic and treatable condition - Depression.

The tragedy is, I believe most suicides could have been prevented if the person would have gotten therapy and possibly medication. It's important for people to take even a brief class in suicide prevention and how to see some of the warning signs, you never know when you might need to help a friend or loved one. I personally didn't take such a class until I was an NCO in the military and had to learn about how to notice battle stress and depression in my troops. That was years after my loved one killed herself.

I see this form of suicide as tragic, preventable, but no more immoral than someone who dies of a heart attack. I think killing yourself to avoid prison time or public humiliation for a crime as different and immoral.

[Spiff]

I've lost a close family member to suicide, and in the years since I've become convinced most suicides really died from a tragic and treatable condition - Depression.

The tragedy is, I believe most suicides could have been prevented if the person would have gotten therapy and possibly medication. It's important for people to take even a brief class in suicide prevention and how to see some of the warning signs, you never know when you might need to help a friend or loved one. I personally didn't take such a class until I was an NCO in the military and had to learn about how to notice battle stress and depression in my troops. That was years after my loved one killed herself.

very well said indeed. i too lost a close family member to suicide. Linked entirely to depression he simply needed help (which he must have felt deprived of in university). Temporary mental illness is the major problem, i really hate when people pass character judgemenst on people in situations like this.

Clearly the question as to the acceptability of suicide depends entirely on the circumstances, so please people dont try and simplify it to terms of 'is it good or selfish?'