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Thread: Portuguese History

  1. #1
    FrancMor13's Avatar Civis
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    Default Portuguese History

    Hi Y'all!
    This thread has as its goal to share knowledge about Portuguese History! Who doesn't feel a little interest about that small corner in southwest Europe that brought us the World as we know?
    Do you know that the First Western Nation to trade with China, Japan and other Eastern Asian Nations was Portugal?
    Ask here and I'll try to help!

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Portuguese History

    The main historic issue I've always been most curious about (but to lazy to track down) is why Portugal isn't part of Spain? They must share an early Christian origin history and a similar relativity to conflict during Islamic expansionist eras, yet Spain and Portugal have divergent language - and presumably, culture - with no severely prohibitive geographical barrier when one considers their contiguous coastlines. I would have thought Portugal's geographical position would make Spanish control of this area the premier (Spanish) strategic must have priority, particularly after Spain rose to world power status in the 15th and 16th centuries.

    I'm not aware of Portugal ever having had a reputation as a military power able to rival Spain. ( I suspect I may be in error here! )

    Is there an easy answer to this situation or is it the cumulation of centuries of complex interactions that can only be addressed by an encyclopaedic dissertation?






  3. #3

    Default Re: Portuguese History

    I will try... obviously this will be broad, but hopefully get the basics:

    The Iberian peninsula was an kingdom after the fall of the Roman Empire. In 711, most of the peninsula fell to the Muslim invasions. The caliphate broke apart, and control varied between highly fragmented individual rulers (known as Taifas) and various foreign incursions (Almoravids, Almohads). Meanwhile, various small and initially weak Christian kingdoms/counties remained in the North. As these rulers gradually conquered more of the peninsula, territories were carved out, and power became more concentrated. What was the county of Portugal became its own kingdom. By the end of the Middle Ages, you have Castille, Aragon and Portugal as major powers, with Granada hanging on in the south under Muslim control. Now, as a general rule, in the Early Modern Period in Europe (pre Napoleonic wars), actual lasting territorial change came about from marriage and succession, rather than outright conquest. The union of Ferdinand and Isabella united the crowns of Castille and Aragon to create 'Spain'. This allowed the conquest of Muslim Granada (beyond the European 'system') in the 1490s. Charles V then inherited half of Europe of Holy Roman Emperor. Philip II inherited the Spanish/Western parts of this in the mid-16th century (inc. Netherlands and other stuff in the Med). By a similar quirk of succession, Philip II also obtained the crown of Portugal as Philip I of Portugal (a bit like what happened in England and Scotland - two crowns (actually more), one monarch). In the mid 17th century, when the power of the Spanish Empire drastically declined (having been the most powerful in Europe under Philip II), various parts were in full revolt, including the Dutch Republic (as it had been for decades), Barcelona, parts of Italy/Sicily and also Portugal. As with various of these, Spain was unable to restore royal power in Portugal. Regardless of whether it was a priority, this was unachievable by this stage. John IV claimed continuation from the previous royal dynasty, and Portugal reverted to being an independent kingdom. There is 1,000 years of Iberian history in a paragraph... if it helps!

    You will have to ask someone else about linguistic and cultural differences
    Last edited by Colossus; January 10, 2015 at 05:28 PM.

  4. #4
    FrancMor13's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Portuguese History

    Good Question! Well, the start of our story begins with Henry from Burgundy. He served the King of Spain by helping him to gain some territory against the Moors and in 1093, King Afonso VI gave him the "Condado Portucalense" (Northern Portugal, with its capital city in Guimarães). But Count Henry had a secret: he thought a lot about independence. After his death in 1112, his wife, D. Teresa (that was the daughter of the King of Spain) sought to unite with the region of Galicia, and her son D. Afonso Henriques, with 14 years old, raised an army and prepared to fight the galicians and his own mother. After a lot of battles, like the Conquest of Santarém, Leiria and Lisboa, the Reign of Portugal is founded and recognised in 1143, by the Treaty of Zamora.
    Portugal never trusted Castilla and León, although we kept cordial relations. We helped them a lot against the moors, because Portugal destroyed the Moors on its territory (that is the same as the today's territory, having one of the oldest borders in the world) by 1249, and the Spaniards had a much harder struggle against them (they only destroyed the moor government in Spain by 1492.
    Only in 1578 the problems restarted. Portugal had been in its Golden Age from 1415 to 1578. The King Sebastian, formed an army and sailed towards Morocco to conquer more territory (Note: Portugal had a lot of territory in Morocco), and sailed to don't come back... He disappeared in the battle of Alcácer-Quibir, and presumably died. He died with 18 years old, and left no Heirs. So from 1578 to 1580, Cardinal D. Henrique ruled, but as a catholic Cardinal, he hadn't sons or daughters. So we had 3 main candidates: Philip II of Spain, Catherine of Portugal, and the Illegitimate descendant of D.John the III, D. Anthony. After bribing most of the Council, Phillip entered his army thorough Portugal to reach Lisbon. In my city, Santarém, D. António, and the plebe fought Philip, but in vain... In 1580 started 60 horrible years of dependence from Spain. Philip the I sweared that he would respect our autonomy, Philip the II didn't and Philip the III took Portugal as any other province of Spain. So in 1\12\1640 or 12\1\1640 in the american calendar, we started our Independence War, and we won in 1668.
    I skipped another Sucession War, in 1385, that was the reason of our Alliance with Britain.


    Skipping the background. In the XIV century, we could match Spanish power until the century XVI. We had a good fleet in the XV century and a good army, but lacking profissionalisation. We had a powerful alliance with Britain. Most of people don't know how were our colonies before the 1580 crisis, and the Wikipedia doesn't show the images, if you really wanna know, you need a school book from Portugal, we basically had all Africa and Indonesia, Persia, Southern India and Ceilan, Thailand and Kampuchea. And asfar as I know, Portugal is almost never discussed in America, but we had the biggest empire in history and now we are just a shadow of our past. And btw, We ONLY were dependent of Spain from 1580 to 1640
    Well I hope this answered your question. I'm sorry being so confusing but my English, isn't the best...

  5. #5

    Default Re: Portuguese History

    One great thing that come out of the iberian union is that the portuguese colonists in brazil were able to colonize as much as south america as they could without minding the bounderies of the tordesillas treaty, since a land colonized by a spanish or by a portuguese would be a land colonized by the same country.... Though obviously by the time of the portuguese independence war the spanish kinda realized their mistake, as a whole bunch of south america would now go to portugal, which if the treaty was kept, it would be just the coast. (i guess it was karma on the spanish lol)

    And the portuguese empire was obviously gigantic but i dont think it was bigger than the british?
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  6. #6
    FrancMor13's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Portuguese History

    Well, during the 1580-1640 phase, the Netherlands, France and Great-Britain attacked our colonies. South Africa was Portuguese, Guayana, Suriname, Eastern Africa and a lot of other possessions that were ours were sacked by the other countries.
    Portugal in the "Union" explored South America a lot, however, when the Tordesillas Treaty was in vigor, we never respected it (yeah, I know,we "betrayed" them), so it wasn't a huge difference. After 1640, the British Empire was a Giant, like the Netherlands, Spain was fine, and we were trying to survive, but it turned out to work better after some time. Returning to the Tordesillas Treaty, we promised to be with ONLY the Northern Coast of Brazil, we explored the southern part though. But well, the Spaniards never knew the difference, hehe. But well, after the independence the treaty wasn't restored, never again, because they may had understood that we could reach Argentina and Peru during the Dependence XD

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    Default Re: Portuguese History

    Quote Originally Posted by FrancMor13 View Post
    Good Question! Well, the start of our story begins with Henry from Burgundy. He served the King of Spain by helping him to gain some territory against the Moors and in 1093, King Afonso VI gave him the "Condado Portucalense" (Northern Portugal, with its capital city in Guimarães). But Count Henry had a secret: he thought a lot about independence. After his death in 1112, his wife, D. Teresa (that was the daughter of the King of Spain) sought to unite with the region of Galicia, and her son D. Afonso Henriques, with 14 years old, raised an army and prepared to fight the galicians and his own mother. After a lot of battles, like the Conquest of Santarém, Leiria and Lisboa, the Reign of Portugal is founded and recognised in 1143, by the Treaty of Zamora.
    Portugal never trusted Castilla and León, although we kept cordial relations. We helped them a lot against the moors, because Portugal destroyed the Moors on its territory (that is the same as the today's territory, having one of the oldest borders in the world) by 1249, and the Spaniards had a much harder struggle against them (they only destroyed the moor government in Spain by 1492.
    Only in 1578 the problems restarted. Portugal had been in its Golden Age from 1415 to 1578. The King Sebastian, formed an army and sailed towards Morocco to conquer more territory (Note: Portugal had a lot of territory in Morocco), and sailed to don't come back... He disappeared in the battle of Alcácer-Quibir, and presumably died. He died with 18 years old, and left no Heirs. So from 1578 to 1580, Cardinal D. Henrique ruled, but as a catholic Cardinal, he hadn't sons or daughters. So we had 3 main candidates: Philip II of Spain, Catherine of Portugal, and the Illegitimate descendant of D.John the III, D. Anthony. After bribing most of the Council, Phillip entered his army thorough Portugal to reach Lisbon. In my city, Santarém, D. António, and the plebe fought Philip, but in vain... In 1580 started 60 horrible years of dependence from Spain. Philip the I sweared that he would respect our autonomy, Philip the II didn't and Philip the III took Portugal as any other province of Spain. So in 1\12\1640 or 12\1\1640 in the american calendar, we started our Independence War, and we won in 1668.
    I skipped another Sucession War, in 1385, that was the reason of our Alliance with Britain.
    This is a nice summary.


    Quote Originally Posted by FrancMor13 View Post
    Skipping the background. In the XIV century, we could match Spanish power until the century XVI. We had a good fleet in the XV century and a good army, but lacking profissionalisation. We had a powerful alliance with Britain. Most of people don't know how were our colonies before the 1580 crisis, and the Wikipedia doesn't show the images, if you really wanna know, you need a school book from Portugal, we basically had all Africa and Indonesia, Persia, Southern India and Ceilan, Thailand and Kampuchea. And asfar as I know, Portugal is almost never discussed in America, but we had the biggest empire in history and now we are just a shadow of our past. And btw, We ONLY were dependent of Spain from 1580 to 1640
    Well I hope this answered your question. I'm sorry being so confusing but my English, isn't the best...
    I have to disagree on this notion. While theoretically it is true that all that land was Portugal's for the taking according to the treaty of Tordesillas, that doesn't mean Portugal established colonial control there. There have only been thin spread out outpost with forts along the coastline for the most part - with some strongholds and colonial centers here and there. Portugal never established the control over vast areas of those territories like the British did in the 19th century.


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  8. #8

    Default Re: Portuguese History

    Quote Originally Posted by Aikanár View Post
    This is a nice summary.
    I have to disagree on this notion. While theoretically it is true that all that land was Portugal's for the taking according to the treaty of Tordesillas, that doesn't mean Portugal established colonial control there. There have only been thin spread out outpost with forts along the coastline for the most part - with some strongholds and colonial centers here and there. Portugal never established the control over vast areas of those territories like the British did in the 19th century.
    Yeah, I can only subscribe to the disagreement. Claims and actual reality are often very different from each other.

    The only area where Portugal went for large-scale territorial rule was South America, specifically the area of modern Brazil. Meanwhile, pretty much all of the rest of their colonial realm was a collection of selected key points of strategic and/or commercial interests, more or less loosely held together by the Portuguese naval presence. And the Portuguese themselves - at least those directly involved in the colonies on site (who often thought very differently on matters compared to the crown, by the way) - were also keenly aware that trying to acquire large swathes of territory in Asia was simply outside of their means: They had neither the finances, nor the manpower to do it, and they also couldn't afford it diplomatically, because it would likely have angered a major power, or facilitated a larger alliance of minor powers.
    Quote Originally Posted by FrancMor13 View Post
    if you really wanna know, you need a school book from Portugal
    No. If you really wanna know, you need to look at professional history books and research.
    School books around the globe only ever give you a small fraction of the whole picture, for simplicity's sake.
    Last edited by Tankfriend; January 11, 2015 at 06:37 AM.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Portuguese History

    Portugal, as you know is a very small country, so I must agree that we had a very small manpower to control effectively those areas. Portugal hadn't an effective control on its colonies, Brazil was our 1# colonie. But you forgot that before Brazil we relied a lot in Asia, we only explored better Brazil after we saw that Asia wouldn't bring us wealth as we thought. We were messed in a lot of wars with local kingdoms of Asia and allied with some empires that were declining, so we couldn't take more advantage on Asia (we lost control in Mascate, that was our fortress in the Persic Gulf, that place would protect us from the Ottomans). With all the piracy in the Indic Sea and us getting poor, our only solution was to seek Brazil's wealth. And only in 1703, during the Mercantilism Era, we found gold. Before that year, we had other things that weren't as valuable as gold...
    About Africa, our power in there wasn't "official". We basically took a lot of small tribes (mostly on southern Africa in Botswana, South Africa, Angola, Mozambique, Tanzania, Kenya and Congo) and made them our "client states\vassals". So we could build or feitorias, that were our cities\ports in Africa, where we could import gold, pepper, ivory and slaves.
    The dutch took South Africa and England took Tanzania and etc... so we only remained with Angola, Mozambique, Bissau, St. Tomé and Príncipe in the Sub-saarian zone and with Cape Verde in the coast of Mauritania.
    You are right in the part that our effective power in Africa was a mere collection of small forts in the coastline of Africa, but the interior paid us vassalage, so watching in this view we could consider those small tribes, part of Portugal.
    Later we had the Berlin Conference and after that, th Ultimatum and the Pink-Map controversy (we wanted to unite Angola and Mozambique by land, so we sent explorers to do that task, like Serpa Pinto. The British convinced some tribes to rebel against us and to join England, so England could do a railroad from South Africa to Cairo (if this isn't true, I'm sorry this is what we learn here)). And so we hadn't the size and power we had in our golden age.

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    Aikanár's Avatar no vaseline
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    Default Re: Portuguese History

    Nobody disagrees with Portugal having had its time as a major colonial power, specifically before the personal union with Spain, but the claim of it surpassing the British Empire and being the greatest empire ever existed was bound to provoke disagreement. In which way should it have surpassed Britain?

    There is a big difference in subjugating a subcontinent effectively establishing real overlordship (even if by the use of local forces) even establishing the sovereign as Empress of that subcontinent and having a port in Goa and some other spots around the coastline. The same goes out for Africa and South-East Asia. I know Wiki ain't that good of a source, but this map is actually quite alright:

    Spoiler for Portuguese Colonial Empire


    Spoiler for For comparison, the British Colonial Empire 1885


    As for receiving tribute, that does not make the paying party part of another empire or was the Roman Empire part of the Germanic tribes it payed tributes to in order to buy peace?
    Last edited by Aikanár; January 11, 2015 at 08:08 AM.


    Son of Louis Lux, brother of MaxMazi, father of Squeaks, Makrell, Kaiser Leonidas, Iskar, Neadal, Sheridan, Bercor and HigoChumbo, house of Siblesz

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  11. #11
    FrancMor13's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Portuguese History

    You are right in that point, and we had surpassed Britain (but ONLY until 1580, after that Britain became a super-power (the same applies to Spain))
    I'm sorry, I thought that we could count with the client states. And about Britain, I was comparing at the same time Portugal 1500 vs. Britain 1500. Not Portugal 1500 vs. Britain 1885. I continue to think that Britain had a the largest empire ever existing, but I also think that the fact of Portugal being dependent of Spain also helped that Britain and other rival Powers could become bigger and bigger.
    You are right! The map isn't so right, though, we learn here (in the so called "simple manner" that is School and some books I had the pleasure to read) that the entire archipellago of Indonesia was ours, and the same with Ceilan and Madagascar.
    You have a lot of knowledge in this area and I am honoured to talk with you.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Portuguese History

    What I don't understand is how Portugal managed to stay independent against the much stronger and larger Spain.
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  13. #13

    Default Re: Portuguese History

    Quote Originally Posted by Akrotatos View Post
    What I don't understand is how Portugal managed to stay independent against the much stronger and larger Spain.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spear Dog View Post
    The main historic issue I've always been most curious about (but to lazy to track down) is why Portugal isn't part of Spain?
    Aljubarrota. And Saint Nuno Álvares Pereira. In a nutshell it's this. There's more involving our First King, D Afonso Henriques The Conqueror, but I don't want to make it too long.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Aljubarrota

    A force of 6500 Portuguese Army versus a force of 31 000 Castillian-Aragonese (union that later made spain) plus a France and Italy, all had a massive defeat against Portugal, only coupled with some english longbowman as reinforcements. This massive victory gave room for more victories ahead, until Castillian-Aragon forces literally surrendered to Portugal despite technically being the invasor and declared several days of mourning, not only peasants and average knights lost, but many nobleman they lost aswell, due to their funny idea of trying to get the Portuguese Kingdom.

    Nun'Álvares Pereira, was a Portuguese general of great success who had a decisive role in the 1383-1385 Crisis that assured Portugal's independence from Castile. He later became a mystic, was beatified by Pope Benedict XV in 1918 and was canonised by Pope Benedict XVI in 2009. Nuno Álvares Pereira is often referred to as the Saint Constable
    To celebrate his victory and acknowledge divine help, John I of Portugal ordered the construction of the monastery of Santa Maria da Vitória na Batalha and the founding of the town of Batalha (Portuguese for "battle", Portuguese pronunciation: [bɐˈtaʎɐ]). The king, his wife Philippa of Lancaster, and several of his sons are buried in this monastery, today a UNESCO World Heritage Site.
    Last edited by fkizz; January 11, 2015 at 02:43 PM.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Portuguese History

    Quote Originally Posted by Akrotatos View Post
    What I don't understand is how Portugal managed to stay independent against the much stronger and larger Spain.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Aljubarrota

    Portugal wasnt as weak as generaly is thought arround here. Aljubarrota was a decisive battle that would insure for good the independence of Portugal after several atempts of Invasion by the castilians over the centuries.
    Portuguese forces defeated with a help of the English and their longbowmen a larger invading force, of Castilians, French, and Aragonese in 1385. In some ways was a battle similar to Agincourt, where the creme of nobility/ and its knights was annihilated, the same happened in Aljubarrota, where Castilian and frankish knights suffered a similar fate, against a mostly peasant, but well trained force. Longbows, crossbows,tactics and good choice of terrain won the day.

    While been weaker on paper, it managed to remain independent, while been resourceful, and also due to their alliances and influence ( mainly the templar order, later on knowned as The order of christ, and one of the major patrons and driving force behind the maritime expansion, if you take a good look the Red cross in the sails of the caravels, and carracks is that of the templars by that time now Order of christ).
    Over the course of history diplomacy was also key factor.
    he main historic issue I've always been most curious about (but to lazy to track down) is why Portugal isn't part of Spain? They must share an early Christian origin history and a similar relativity to conflict during Islamic expansionist eras, yet Spain and Portugal have divergent language - and presumably, culture - with no severely prohibitive geographical barrier when one considers their contiguous coastlines. I would have thought Portugal's geographical position would make Spanish control of this area the premier (Spanish) strategic must have priority, particularly after Spain rose to world power status in the 15th and 16th centuries.

    I'm not aware of Portugal ever having had a reputation as a military power able to rival Spain. ( I suspect I may be in error here! )

    Is there an easy answer to this situation or is it the cumulation of centuries of complex interactions that can only be addressed by an encyclopaedic dissertation?
    I have been refraining to post in this thread, due to the complexity of the theme. Not only an hindsight on the origins of Portugal wich is strongly attached to the Templar order, freddy Silva calls it the first templar nation in his book , is needed, but an hindsight of What is in fact Spain and its history.
    In other words it is a long story as you well put it.
    For once Portugal as a nation and kingdom is way older then Spain, Portugal didnt come from Spain contrary to what was said here. Spain didnt existed at the time, not as you understand it now anyway. Even today Spain is far from being an homogeneous identity, culturaly and even regionaly. ( you have the prime example of Catalan, and Basque issues in modern day) One major hint is that Spain has many languages, what you refer as spanish language is nothing more then castilian, others would be galician, catalan, and Basque for instance. All of those sharing the comon ancenstry in latin like Portuguese, but all of those evolved in their own way.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Several Christian Kingdoms were formed. In 1095, Alfonso VI, the ruler of the kingdom of Leon and Castile established the County of Portucale between the rivers Douro and Mondego. In 1139, the ruler of this county, Afonso Henriques won a battle over the Moors, and declared Portucale a separate kingdom, with himself as king. Four years later, Alfonso VII of Leon-Castile recognized Portucale as a separate, independent kingdom, as did Pope Alexander III in 1179. Afonso Henriques continued to capture land from the Moors, and by 1147 he reconquered Lisbon with the help of English, Flemish, German, and French crusaders. Evora was retaken in 1166, and the Algarve in 1249. At this point, Portugal's conquest was complete, and Portugal became Europe's first state to reach the limits of its territorial expansion, which remain unchanged to this day.
    After Portugal was able to expel the Moors, neighboring Castile (Spain) tried to do the same, achieving that goal in 1492. But over those years it also tried to take over Portugal. There were several invasion attempts, ending with a Portuguese victory in the Battle of Aljubarrota in 1385, during King João's rein. His rein then saw the beginning of Portugal's colonial expansion in Africa and the voyages of discovery which made Portugal rise as the leading maritime and colonial power in western Europe, and Lisbon develop into a major commercial city. In 1415 the trading post of Ceuta in Morocco was captured. Years later, João's son, Prince Henry the Navigator promoted voyages of discovery, and his "school of navigation" in Sagres was founded. At this point, the "Portuguese caravel" was created. This ship was rounder and better suited for the Atlantic, moved entirely by lateen or square sails, and requiring a smaller crew than the previous ships. As a result, the Portuguese were the first Europeans to open the way into the Atlantic (discovering the islands of Madeira, Azores, and Cape Verde), to sail down western Africa (reaching the mouth of the Congo in 1482), to cross the Equator, to round and name the Cape of Good Hope (Bartolomeu Dias), to reach India by sea from the west (Vasco da Gama), to set a foot in South America (with the discovery of Brazil by Pedro Alvares Cabral), and were the first westerners in Ceylon, Sumatra, Malacca, Timor and the spice islands of the Moluccas, the first Europeans to trade with China and Japan (establishing a trading post in Macao, which was the first European settlement in China and part of Portugal until 1999), and to see Australia two hundred years before Captain Cook. The Corte-Real brothers also reached Newfoundland in 1500, and sailing for Spain, Portuguese explorer Magellan (Magalhães in Portuguese) was the first to circumnavigate the globe, and Cabrilho was the first to explore the coast of California. Thanks to worldwide trade, Portugal enjoyed an upsurge of prosperity, making it the wealthiest country in Europe. During this period, King Manuel I marked the exuberance of the age with the lavish Manueline style of architecture (still seen today throughout Portugal, especially in Lisbon's Belem Tower and Jeronimos Monastery).
    Unfortunaly we wasted that wealth in building churches, and lavish monasteries, palaces and such, instead of developing our manufacturies, agriculture, and even industries... Portuguese Military wasnt as weak as is generaly thought, there was the comon reliance on mercenaries as we had the wealth to pay them( Portuguese invading force of north africa was composed of many peoples, germans/Castilians/Italians etc) , of course the ever lasted Aliance with the English was very beneficial in the course of our history dating back to the conquest of Lisbon. In fact Anglo-Portuguese aliance is stated as been the oldest in the world, been still in force.

    About the Philipine dominance, wich in the end was one of the key causes of Portuguese decline in Asia and other parts of the world:
    In the late 16th century, King Sebastião was determined to take Christianity to Morocco. He rallied a force of 18,000 but was killed in the battle along with 8000 others. His successor, Cardinal Henrique took over the throne. In 1580, when Henrique died, Sebastião's uncle, Phillip II of Spain, claimed the Portuguese throne. Phillip promised a purely personal union that would leave his new kingdom as independent as before, guaranteed the separation of the two governments, and promissed that the Portuguese language and laws should be used in the governance of the country. Phillip's rein lived up to his promise, but under his son and grandson, Spain let the English and the Dutch strip Portugal of valuable foreign possessions, and Lisbon declined as a commercial center with competition from the harbors in England and Holland. This marked the end of Portugal's golden age. In 1640, leading personalities staged a well-planned rising in Lisbon and easily overpowered the sentinels guarding public buildings. In the absence of any force capable of suppressing the rising, a new ruler was acclaimed and Portugal was once again a separate, independent nation. Later, a treaty of friendship and commercial cooperation with Britain ensured Portugal's restored independence, but also guaranteed British predominance in Portugal. Two years after the treaty, Portugal's Catherine of Braganza (Bragança), married England's Charles II.

    Also just for kicks if any of you are interested. This is a Spanish documentary on Portugal, spoken in Spanish, but with english subtitles.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Last edited by Knight of Heaven; January 11, 2015 at 03:56 PM.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Portuguese History

    Quote Originally Posted by FrancMor13 View Post
    But you forgot that before Brazil we relied a lot in Asia, we only explored better Brazil after we saw that Asia wouldn't bring us wealth as we thought.
    The development of Brazil and Asia actually took place simultaneously, though it was stepped up significantly once its potential became clear.
    On another note, also don't forget that Portugal didn't just try to work with Asia and Brazil, at the same time, but they also tried to pull off several military campaigns in North Africa, against Morocco, too. That's serving a triple front - obviously a difficult task.
    We were messed in a lot of wars with local kingdoms of Asia and allied with some empires that were declining, so we couldn't take more advantage on Asia (we lost control in Mascate, that was our fortress in the Persic Gulf, that place would protect us from the Ottomans).
    Apart from the Ottomans, you also have to account for Persia under the Saffavids (who took back Hormuz, another very important part in the Portuguese colonial system), the Mughal Empire, as well as Vijayanagara (which controlled most of south-central India) up to about the mid-16th century. Apart from those, there's also China and Japan much later of course. Basically, wherever the Portuguese looked (except Africa and the South-East Asian archipelagos), they had to contend with major powers that they couldn't afford to anger.
    And only in 1703, during the Mercantilism Era, we found gold. Before that year, we had other things that weren't as valuable as gold...
    The Portuguese acquired Arguim in 1443, and Sao Jorge da Mina (aka Elmina) in 1482, and both of them (especially Elmina) had good access to African gold. That was an important asset in jump-starting the initial push along the African coast, and later into Asia.
    That said, gold and silver were only major Portuguese exports to Asia at the very early stage of the colonies, and then from the mid-16th century onwards. In between, a large part of the cargo to Asia was copper, which the Portuguese acquired via Antwerp, which was also the main market for their imported spices until they closed down their factory there.

    Another interesting detail about gold: Relative to silver, it was apparently actually worth less in Asia than it was in Europe. The relation was somewhere along the lines of 1:11 in Europe, and only 1:7 in Asia (this example being China, to be specific). The Portuguese seem to have tried to exploit that to eek out some more profit for themselves, too.
    Last edited by Tankfriend; January 11, 2015 at 05:18 PM.

  16. #16
    Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Portuguese History

    Why does Portuguese sound so different from the other Latin languages? It doesn't even sound like a Latin language.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Portuguese History

    Quote Originally Posted by Stavroforos View Post
    Why does Portuguese sound so different from the other Latin languages? It doesn't even sound like a Latin language.
    Not sure thats true interely, counting the numbers sound exactly like Romanian for instance....
    And Portuguese is one of among the romance languages with the most latinisms in its grammar still.

    For example
    Go in Italian is; Andare
    In Portuguese is; ir
    In latin is; Ire
    We used often the word Vai
    And sounds exactly like latin.

    I think mostly you might not percieve it, because of accents and pronunciation etc.

    The Iberian Peninsula, or what is now Portugal and Spain, was settled by the Lusitani, a Celtic tribe, in the 1st millennium BCE. The ancient Romans first arrived to the Iberian Peninsula in 218 BCE, bringing with them trade, culture, and Latin. It would take the Romans until 26 BCE under the Emperor Augustus to conquer the western part of the peninsula. Over the centuries, the native language of the Lusitani disappeared under the weight of the Latin influence. The Roman province of Lusitania, which included most of modern-day Portugal, became an integral part of the Roman Empire. As the centuries passed, the Roman Empire began to collapse and the cultural and linguistic uniformity of the region broke down. The Iberian Peninsula was invaded by barbarian tribes such as the Suevi and the Visigoths, whose Germanic languages influenced the Portuguese vocabulary, especially in military terms.

    The Moors of North Africa invaded the Iberian Peninsula in 711 CE. They brought Arabic and used it as an administrative language in ruling over the conquered regions. Beneath the surface, however, the budding Romance (from ‘Roman’) language of Portuguese continued to be used by the common people. When the Moors were eventually overthrown by the Christians, little of Arabic remained except for about 900 words added to the Portuguese lexicon.

    Portuguese as a distinct language only began to emerge around the 9th century CE. This embryonic form of Portuguese came from the Galicia , now part of Spain, ( Galician isnt Spanish though, it is very similar to Portuguese, even sounds like Portuguese) and was widely used for poetry and songs.

    With Portugal’s independence in 1143 and the expulsion of the Moors completed in 1249, Galician-Portuguese became the spoken and written language of Lusitania. In 1290 the king of Portugal decreed that Portuguese, until then known as the “Vulgar language,” should be used instead of Latin. In 1296 Portuguese was adopted by the Royal Chancellery. Over the next two centuries its use was extended from poetry to writing law and official documents.

    With the dawning of the Age of Exploration, Portuguese sailors, soldiers and missionaries led the way. Under the influence of Prince Henry the Navigator, Portugal developed trading posts and colonies in Asia, Africa and the Americas. Portuguese became a commonly used language in Asia and Africa for colonial administration, trade, and communicating between local officials and Europeans of all nationalities. Its association with Catholic missionaries led it to be called Cristão (“Christian”) in many places. Today this colonial legacy can still be seen in Portuguese-speaking communities in India, Sri Lanka, Malaysia and Indonesia, and in Portuguese words that have entered the vocabulary of Japanese, Swahili, and other languages.

    Portuguese entered its modern form in the 16th century when early lexicologists defined its morphology and syntax. Over the past few centuries, the type of Portuguese spoken in its home country and in its colonies, especially Brazil, has diverged. French influence on Portugal was especially strong during the 18th century, while Brazilian Portuguese absorbed vocabulary from American Indian and African languages.Unlike Spanish or French, Portuguese does not have an international body of language regulators to maintain its purity, but both Portugal and Brazil have their own national language regulators. ( this actualy used to be true until recently, now both the Brazilian Portuguese and European Portuguese has the same grammar rulling it. In case you are wondering the Portuguese spoken in Africa, and Timor, and in india etc, is more akin European Portuguese.
    It is basicaly the same language only thing it differs is accent, and expressions here and there, everything is the same.
    Looking ahead, the Portuguese language is only expected to become more widespread. Brazil’s predominance in South America has led the neighboring countries of Uruguay and Argentina to mandate its study. The Portuguese-speaking countries in Africa are expected to have a combined population of 83 million by 2050, and 335 million people will speak Portuguese worldwide.
    Last edited by Knight of Heaven; January 11, 2015 at 06:10 PM.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Portuguese History

    I recall a nice book about Vasco Da Gama and the role of the order of Avila and other knightly orders in driving the exploration around Africa into the Indian Ocean.

    I was struck by the toughness of the adventurers there, who smashed their way into economic dominance over the existing trade network. Its not like Europeans had superior tech or anything, they were just hard individuals. I guess being crowded into the corner of Iberia with competing Christian and Moorish polities all crowding one another made for strong survival skills.

    Do the Portuguese still have a reputation in Iberia for being ferocious/stubborn/otherwise uncontrollable?
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  19. #19

    Default Re: Portuguese History

    At least for me as a brazilian i dont think portuguese sounds so different from other latin languages at all. Much closer to italian and spanish than french to these 2 languages for example. (also much close to all the other latin languages than what i take of the proximity between english and german). Its so close to spanish that most people that i know need minimum study and available time to understand them. Heck, argentine players in brazilian football clubs, when asked questions in portuguese during interviews and etc, most of them just go on and reply in spanish, and it doesnt goes over anyone's mind to say "Hey... get me some subtitles".

    Although, personally i must be a rare case, i can understand the spanish words when spoken alone and written text quite well. But i cant understand heck of what they say during normal convesations, even when they do kind of a Portu-nhol. Shamefully my english is quite alot better than my spanish, lol
    Last edited by Wulfburk; January 11, 2015 at 11:37 PM.
    Then, as throngs of his enemies bore down upon him and one of his followers said, "They are making at thee, O King," "Who else, pray," said Antigonus, "should be their mark? But Demetrius will come to my aid." This was his hope to the last, and to the last he kept watching eagerly for his son; then a whole cloud of javelins were let fly at him and he fell.

    -Plutarch, life of Demetrius.

    Arche Aiakidae-Epeiros EB2 AAR

  20. #20

    Default Re: Portuguese History

    Yes same here in Portugal for the most part, a Portuguese and a Spanish speaking can converse with one another just fine.
    Of course it isnt true for every individual or every case, but rather for the most part anyway.
    Galician sounds similar like Portuguese for instance. Catalan is a nother case alltogether, and im not sure about basque.

    Example, The Coach manager of FC.Porto soccer team doesnt have a problem in converse with Portuguese reporters, they ask in Portuguese and he replies in Castilian, and everything is understandable.

    Although, personally i must be a rare case, i can understand the spanish words when spoken alone and written text quite well. But i cant understand heck of what they say during normal convesations, even when they do kind of a Portu-nhol. Shamefully my english is quite alot better than my spanish, lol
    Any Portuguese speaker either from Brazil or Portugal, can speak Portu-nhol (a mix of Portuguese with Spanish)

    (A portuguese stand up comedy in Brazil)
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Do the Portuguese still have a reputation in Iberia for being ferocious/stubborn/otherwise uncontrollable?
    Ah i just have to.. cant help myself
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Also
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    ( he is luso-Brazilian, but you know what the saying goes, "like father like son" something like that )


    Honestly though The Portuguese stereotype is to be melancolic, nostalgic, idealistic, never ever optimistic... but that is all just the stereotype.

    But Stubborn, ferocious and uncontrollable or temperemental is not far out either.
    There is a famous quotation here in Portugal, of Servius Sulpicius Galba, a Roman General, Praetor of Hispania Ulterior, he was one of the first Roman rulers in Iberia, upon facing revolt of the Lusitanian tribes, he said;
    ", na parte mais ocidental da Ibéria, um povo muito estranho que não se governa nem se deixa governar!"
    Translated it means;
    "There is a strange people in the most western part of Iberia, one that doesnt rule itself, and doesnt let it be ruled"

    Obvious we need to take this generalizations with face value, and put them in proper context.
    As all stereotypes, they all have its origins, but they are still stereotypes.
    Last edited by Knight of Heaven; January 12, 2015 at 06:23 AM.

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