The following exchange just occurred in the science forum:
So, here we are. I'll begin by giving my personal view on the question of homosexuality. I don't expect to convince anyone of it ― that would entail converting them to my religion, which I'm neither capable enough to do nor inclined to attempt. It serves merely as background for the thesis that follows. If Copperknickers would like to try to dissuade me of my religious beliefs, on the other hand, he's welcome to try, although that's not where I was hoping this discussion would go.
I am an Orthodox Jew. Consequently, I believe that the Jewish Bible is the word of God, and in particular that the Talmudic (and subsequent rabbinic) interpretations of it are definitive. The Bible prohibits anal intercourse between men. Although nearly all of the prohibitions in the Bible are given to Jews only, the Talmud notes that this prohibition is one of the few that is applicable to non-Jews as well. Therefore, according to the tenets of my religion, it is wrong for men to have anal intercourse. It is thus commendable (if not required) for me to oppose such things where possible, along with general sexual immorality.
I do not condone unlawful attacks on homosexuals. Even under a legitimate divinely-ordained religious government such as will exist in messianic times, homosexuality (like other sin) is not punished by humans except through an appropriately-established court system. Although the Bible prescribes a death penalty for sodomy between men, that penalty is only to be administered by the courts. Individuals should do whatever is in their power to discourage sin, but only up to the limits of Jewish law, which of course prohibits assault and so on.
It's also worth noting that I don't hate homosexuals, or even dislike them. Although I believe that what they do is wrong, they're mostly acting in good faith and genuinely believe that what they're doing is okay. It would be wrong for me to hold them against that as a person. That doesn't stop me from trying to correct them through whatever means are available, however, including various forms of punishment. In doing so, I attempt to benefit them by helping to save their souls, as God desires, and even in supporting punishment or suppression of homosexuals I bear them no ill will.
Now, we are fortunate enough to live in a democratic society, and therefore I have the option to use my vote against homosexuals where permitted by our Constitution. I also, of course, have the ability to try to persuade other people to oppose homosexuality, or at least become more moderate in their support of it. The latter is my goal in this debate.
Finally, as many of you know, I am fairly knowledgeable in the sciences. I'm entering a Ph.D. program in mathematics this fall, and am graduating in a couple of months with a B.S. in mathematics and a minor in physics. I am well aware of the fact that the inclination toward homosexuality is mostly determined by genes and prenatal environment, and that nobody consciously chooses who they find attractive. I know that homosexuality has been observed in nature among many different animal species. I don't think that this has any relevance to its morality. Most people wish they could commit murder at least once in their life, and murder is certainly widespread in the animal kingdom, but that doesn't legitimize murder. That which is natural need not be right.
As an important aside before I state my thesis, let me be clear that unless otherwise stated, I use the term homosexuality here to refer to homosexual intercourse. Merely having the desire to engage in homosexual relations is not any more sinful than anyone's illicit sexual desires, and is not particularly wrong or immoral. Only acting on them is. The dual meaning of homosexuality (referring both to an act and a desire) is the cause of a lot of confusion in debates like these.
So anyway, I am going to be attempting to persuade Copperknickers here of the following points:
- Ignorance is not the cause of homophobia. Homophobes need not be ignorant, and ignorant people need not be homophobes. Although most people who oppose homosexuality are ignorant of the issues, most people who support it are too. The latter happen to be somewhat closer to correct on average, but as much by chance as anything.
- More broadly, morality is essentially independent of both science and logic. Although reasoning can inform morality, it cannot dictate it. Two people who are entirely rational and agree on every empirical question under the Sun may have radically different moral beliefs, and no amount of arguing will bring them to agree.
Let me begin the debate by dissecting Copperknickers' short post that triggered this challenge:
And what law of science says that homophobia or racism is wrong? Is there an experimentally-verified law I missed in biology class that tells me who I should be nice to? Perhaps Gauss proved a theorem that black people are okay and so anyone who oppresses them is irrational?
Or perhaps morality is not determined by science at all. Eugenics didn't fall out of favor because it was scientifically disproven. It fell out of favor because theories like Nazism were overturned in favor of things like the civil rights movements, as a purely political matter. Because hearts were swayed, not minds. Only after the tide had turned did anthropologists do a backflip and decide that really racism was scientifically wrong instead of scientifically right. They followed public opinion like obedient dogs for lack of much actual scientific content in their social "science". Most of the "scientific objections" to racism are indeed as irrelevant as those against homophobia. (I don't believe in racial discrimination anyway, but for moral reasons, not scientific ones.)
You cannot dispute my knowledge, you cannot dispute my sanity, you cannot dispute my rationality, and so you resort to empty claims that I haven't "taken my knowledge to heart". Maybe you should consider the possibility that there are very knowledgeable people who fully understand all the arguments in favor of homosexuality and oppose it anyway.
Is it really hypocrisy for me to disagree with the Nazis' Final Solution but oppose homosexuals? (The Nazis didn't like homosexuals much either, in fact, but that's not what you're referring to.) I imagine your logic runs something like: I support homophobia, and all prejudice is really the same, so if I'm honest I should be prejudiced against Jews too. But that's clearly silly. Belief that one group is bad is not the same as belief that another is. There is no contradiction between believing homosexuality is wrong and Judaism is right. In fact, I would be a hypocrite if I claimed to be an Orthodox Jew and didn't think homosexuality was wrong!
Actually, I think that (deliberately or not) you were really just arbitrarily comparing me to Nazis because they're usually viewed as the absolute extreme of evil these days. This is just Godwin's Law in action, and by rights you should lose the debate before it even started. For what it's worth, I know quite a number of Holocaust survivors or escapees, including my own grandfather, and I very much doubt any of them cares much for homosexuals.
But let me remind you of one lesson of Nazism. You can have two educated, intelligent, cultured, polite, generous, loyal, honest people, brought up in almost identical cultures, sharing almost exactly the same religious beliefs and fairly similar social beliefs, such that each one of them thinks the other is thoroughly evil. The Nazis were not ignorant. Germany was exceedingly civilized, had one of the world's best university systems, was a strong supporter of science in all its forms. They nevertheless committed genocide against the Jews and other groups, and caused the death of tens of millions.
The Nazis were not less learned than the Allies. They were not less scientific. World War II was not a barbarian invasion. But the Nazis were racists, through and through. Because they lost, we view them as villains. If they had won, you would likely view the Allies as the villains. They would have been plotters to overthrow the legitimate master race, trying in their ignorance to throw the world into savagery and set back civilization a millennium. (I, of course, would not believe that, because I would never have been born with three grandparents killed.)
Your hatred of racism is due to politics, not science. And that's every bit as true for your view of homosexuality ― and for mine. Morality is fundamentally not scientific. It is not caused by science and cannot be justified or attacked by science. It is intrinsically subjective and irrational and can never be otherwise. That is where you really erred in your post.