Russia moves troops closer to Georgia's capital

[Caucasus]

there are many Tajiks and Uzbeks in Moscow but does it make Moscow historical Tajik or Uzbek land?

reasons here are very simple,Stalin primarily used Russia and Russian power to rule other nations,so regardless of your wishes Russia is as equally to blame as Stalin is

there are 250.000 Chechens as well.! I have a new home land!

[YuriVII]

There where Cossacks not Russians. Big diffrence, cossacks have adopted almost every aspect of Caucasian culture.

No no no, Cossacks are Russians, we consider ourselves as such.

[Takverely]

From Geprgian wiki?
Well, if you want so

sorry friend. that link was from Russian wiki. now read whats written there and disscuss it yourself. here is not a kindengarden to explane everything. you can read it there! (you know the link)

so any oposing arguments? (about ossetia or abkhazia)

[Pavlik the Rus]

10-0

Ahhh... imagination.
As i said before, you lose. At one page you said one thing, on the other page you said the oposite, trying to evade. It is not serious.

takverely
Most Russians don't know Georgian language. I guess that article was in Georgian originally with translation to Russian.
Meantime i have noticed that terms "colonisation" and "ocupation" are unreal, because there was no colonist or ocupants who gave such rights to the colony (or occupyed terrytory) citizens.
Annexation is correct word. But it have no such strong negative force as occupation and colonisation have

[Caucasus]

Ahhh... imagination.
As i said before, you lose. At one page you said one thing, on the other page you said the oposite, trying to evade. It is not serious.

Oh you are out of arguments now?

No no no, Cossacks are Russians, we consider ourselves as such.

Some tatars who live in RF consider themselves as Russian as well. So do the Chukchas.
One thing is for sure, even wikipedia describes Cossacks as "slavs" and nothing else is provided. The irony in all of this is that Cossacks fled Zaporozhian Zech from the RUS Empires slavery and where accepted into Caucasus given lands and called friends but when Tsar offered them special priviliges they turned on their own KUNAKS and stabbed them in the back, freedom loving my ass.

[Pavlik the Rus]

Oh you are out of arguments now?

Me? No. You - yes, and a long time ago.
Your last post indicates one more time your knowledge level.
I guess that our discussion failed. It is imposible to debate with so biased fanatic.
Even cossack tell you that he is a russian, again, you trying to evade.
Continue, go on, if someone can take you serious offcause

[YuriVII]

@Fagi
Only Kuban and Terek are from Zaparozhian sic. Zaparozhian sic split into Ottoman-loyal danube sic (now extinct) and Russia-loyal Kuban sic. There are other hosts, Don, Ural, Siberian which do not come from Zaparozhian Sic. I myself am Kuban Cossack and I consider myself Russian, we consider ourselves Russian. I think what we consider ourselves is the biggest factor in determining our ethnicity and since we and other non-Cossack Russians consider us Russian, there should be no contest to this issue.

Tatars consider themselves Rossiskoi as far as I know, we actually consider ourselves "russkij"

*To people who dont know Russian, the adjective "Rossiskoe" means "of the Russian state" For example a chechen, a tatar, even a dutchman can have rossijskoi grazhdanstvo or Russian citizenship. "Russkij" means of the Russian ethnicity. Russkij narod (Russian people), Russkij chai (Russian tea), Russkaja prostitutka (Russian priest). In English there is no such proper translation between the two words, both are listed as "Russian"

[Salvatorel]

Most Russians don't know Georgian language. I guess that article was in Georgian originally with translation to Russian.

ehh... one more proof that "history" which is reliable for a Russian is no more than some junk made for propaganda by the department of historical truth

[Caucasus]

Me? No. You - yes, and a long time ago.
Your last post indicates one more time your knowledge level.
I guess that our discussion failed. It is imposible to debate with so biased fanatic.
Even cossack tell you that he is a russian, again, you trying to evade.
Continue, go on, if someone can take you serious offcause

Thats not what we are debating, i know very well that Cossacks consider themself russian, what we are talking about was ethnicity.

Wikipedia

The term Cossacks (Ukrainian: Козаки́, Kozaki; Russian: Каза́ки́, Kazaki; Polish: Kozacy) is applied to specific militaristic communities of various ethnicities living in the steppe regions of Ukraine and also southern Russia.

@Fagi
Only Kuban and Terek are from Zaparozhian sic. Zaparozhian sic split into Ottoman-loyal danube sic (now extinct) and Russia-loyal Kuban sic. There are other hosts, Don, Ural, Siberian which do not come from Zaparozhian Sic. I myself am Kuban Cossack and I consider myself Russian, we consider ourselves Russian. I think what we consider ourselves is the biggest factor in determining our ethnicity and since we and other non-Cossack Russians consider us Russian, there should be no contest to this issue.

Read what wikipedia says.

In the 18th century the rising Russian Empire's expansionist ambitions relied on ensuring the loyalty of Cossacks, which caused tension with their traditional independent lifestyle. This resulted in rebellions led by Stenka Razin, Kondraty Bulavin and Yemelyan Pugachev. In extreme cases whole Hosts could be dissolved, as was the fate of the Zaporozhian Sich in 1775. By the end of the 18th century, Cossacks became a special social estate (sosloviye) in Russia; they served as border guards on national and internal ethnic borders (as was in the case in the Caucasus War) and regularly supplied men to conflicts, such as the numerous Russo-Turkish Wars. In return they enjoyed vast social autonomy.

Russkaja prostitutka (Russian priest). In English there is no such proper translation between the two words, both are listed as "Russian"

Russkaja prostitutka Means russian whore my friend, not priest. Lol at the lecture.

[YuriVII]

Ok, your wikipedia quote doesn't really contradict what I said. It talks about the Russian Empire's policies toward Cossacks, not the evolution of Cossacks. Because Zaparozhian sic 250 years ago existed in Southern Ukraine mean that Kuban Cossacks today ethnic Ukrainians? What about Don Cossacks? What about Ural Cossacks? Cossacks certainly is a loaded term as they expand from the Eastern Polish Galician borders all the way to Ussuri River in Primorski Krai. It is not even really an ethnic term, it is more a social class made up of outcasts primarily from orthodox slavic communities. (Ukrainian-Russian kind of the same nation, that is another debate for another time). As for today, if we consider ourselves Russian and other Russians consider us Russian, are we not Russian? If you disagree to this point, please put up a counter, because your wiki didnt really rebuff or support anything I said. Terek Cossacks are actually a very old host offshooting from the Ryzan Cossacks in 1500s. So they have been there on the Terek river for quite some time (although not part of Russian state until the time of Peter the Great).

LOL, atleast someone got the joke heheh. I once told a British visitor that pizda meant "Mr".

[Salvatorel]

I once told a British visitor that pizda meant "Mr".

i just imagined the face of a Russian person who had his share of "joy" to meet this British person

Russkaja prostitutka (Russian priest). In English there is no such proper translation between the two words, both are listed as "Russian"

despite some similarities between words "priest" and "prostitutka" it is undeniable that word "prostitute" has far more similarities with the word "prostitutka" than "priest" has BTW if i can recall correctly Russian word for a priest is Священник,also IMO more correct translation of prostitutka is Prostitute as more accurate word for a whore in Russian is Шлюха

[Caucasus]

Ok, your wikipedia quote doesn't really contradict what I said. It talks about the Russian Empire's policies toward Cossacks, not the evolution of Cossacks. Because Zaparozhian sic 250 years ago existed in Southern Ukraine mean that Kuban Cossacks today ethnic Ukrainians? What about Don Cossacks? What about Ural Cossacks? Cossacks certainly is a loaded term as they expand from the Eastern Polish Galician borders all the way to Ussuri River in Primorski Krai. It is not even really an ethnic term, it is more a social class made up of outcasts primarily from orthodox slavic communities. (Ukrainian-Russian kind of the same nation, that is another debate for another time). As for today, if we consider ourselves Russian and other Russians consider us Russian, are we not Russian? If you disagree to this point, please put up a counter, because your wiki didnt really rebuff or support anything I said. Terek Cossacks are actually a very old host offshooting from the Ryzan Cossacks in 1500s. So they have been there on the Terek river for quite some time (although not part of Russian state until the time of Peter the Great).

I never said that Cossacks dint live in caucasus in 1500s even so Terek Cossacks.
What your Russian friends claimed was that the lands terek cossacks lived on where Russian, which is a big bs. And hands down to this Cossack lol he knows his own history.

LOL, atleast someone got the joke heheh. I once told a British visitor that pizda meant "Mr".[/quote]

you naughty boy!!

[pajomife@iol.pt]

This thread starts in April 21, 2009, 10:02 PM, and they don't reach the Georgia's capital yet? It isn't a Blitzkrieg for sure.

[ivan_the_terrible]

This thread starts in April 21, 2009, 10:02 PM, and they don't reach the Georgia's capital yet? It isn't a Blitzkrieg for sure.

They've already circumnavigated the globe and got there. Twice.

[YuriVII]

delete

[YuriVII]

I never said that Cossacks dint live in caucasus in 1500s even so Terek Cossacks.
What your Russian friends claimed was that the lands terek cossacks lived on where Russian, which is a big bs. And hands down to this Cossack lol he knows his own history.

LOL, atleast someone got the joke heheh. I once told a British visitor that pizda meant "Mr".

you naughty boy!![/QUOTE]

Its what I have been saying for a long time, it says it in our constitution... Russian Federation is a multiethnic state. Its the first line in it. Chechen, Tatar, Ukrainian, Russian, Estonian, Tatar, Bashkir, Mongolian, Chukchi. Nation-states are done with, so Russians should not even pretend that is the case. We are living in one union together. So it is better to look towards the future than spawn new conflicts that will cause more blood and suffering. Right now, the most important thing SHOULD be citizenship, despite ethnicity, because that is such a gray area, especially in Eurasia.

I am not even from Russian Federation, I am a Russian from Estonia and I still understand this.

[Takverely]

Ahhh... imagination.
As i said before, you lose. At one page you said one thing, on the other page you said the oposite, trying to evade. It is not serious.

takverely
Most Russians don't know Georgian language. I guess that article was in Georgian originally with translation to Russian.
Meantime i have noticed that terms "colonisation" and "ocupation" are unreal, because there was no colonist or ocupants who gave such rights to the colony (or occupyed terrytory) citizens.
Annexation is correct word. But it have no such strong negative force as occupation and colonisation have

this information is from wiki (russian). >>http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%93%...0%B8%D0%B9_XII

В Картли и Кахети русское управление было введено в 1802 году. Главою русской военной и гражданской администрации в Грузии являлся «главнокомандующий Грузии». На эту должность был назначен русский генерал К. Ф. Кнорринг. Картли и Кахети были разделены на пять уездов — Тифлисский, Горийский, Душетский, Телавский и Сигнахский, во главе которых стояли русские военные чиновники.

Во вновь учрежденных судах судопроизводство по уголовным делам велось на основании действовавших в России законов.

Введение русского управления лишило Грузию государственности и вытеснило из административных учреждений грузинский язык.

Pavlik this is colonialism!

[Dr. Pillulkin]

i just imagined the face of a Russian person who had his share of "joy" to meet this British person

I just imagined the face of this british person after his meeting with russian

[ivan_the_terrible]

this information is from wiki (russian). >>http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%93%...0%B8%D0%B9_XII

В Картли и Кахети русское управление было введено в 1802 году. Главою русской военной и гражданской администрации в Грузии являлся «главнокомандующий Грузии». На эту должность был назначен русский генерал К. Ф. Кнорринг. Картли и Кахети были разделены на пять уездов — Тифлисский, Горийский, Душетский, Телавский и Сигнахский, во главе которых стояли русские военные чиновники.

Во вновь учрежденных судах судопроизводство по уголовным делам велось на основании действовавших в России законов.

Введение русского управления лишило Грузию государственности и вытеснило из административных учреждений грузинский язык.

Pavlik this is colonialism!

Well I don't think its colonisation exactly.

Have a look at the wikipedia article (since we're using them so much )
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonia...of_colonialism

It was definitely not settler colonialism.

The only other alternative is exploitation colonialism, which means a country's resources are heavily exploited to enrich the colonist nation.

With Russia and Georgia it was simply one kingdom annexing the other. For the typical Georgian peasant nothing changed- they still worked the same land for the same nobles. For the nobles, they answered to a Russian king and not a Georgian one.

Look, colonialisation implies that a more advanced country moves in to a less developed one and builds, converts, exploits and settles. With Georgia and Russia the religion was identical, the society was identical, the political system was very similar - the only real difference was language and size!

[Takverely]

the official language was changed when most part of Georgians, about 95% or more didnt know Russian language. Georgia was diveded into administration parts (like it was in russia) and those parts were ruled by russians, there were no longer Georgian laws. there were Russian laws and everything was ruled by Russian Generals. those were great changes for Georgian peasents. they had to pay for Russian militaries and Russians had right to buy everything in even 1/4 prices, peasents also worked for Russian military roads etc. and Russians settled in Georgia too.

I know those information from books. and I dont like the wiki, information is usually wrong there. (georgian can write an article as he thinks, russian also can do this and egyptian too, thats why I dont like it )

may be I am wrong and its not colonialism, but then give me the link where I will be able to read whats annexing a country.