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Thread: Hammer and the Cross, Dark Age Mod.

  1. #1

    Icon1 Hammer and the Cross, Dark Age Mod.

    Hi all, I figured it was about time I actually posted some info on this project I've been working on for the last six months. This will take a few posts I think, so this is part 1, the basic info.

    The basic idea was to create a mod based on Harry Harrison's awesome "Hammer and the Cross" trilogy. This idea expanded somewhat as time went on, as I will explain. For those that aren't aware of it (and I would highly recommended checking them out if you aren't), the books are based on an a dark ages alternate timeline. The start of the first book is the viking invasions in England and many of the characters in all the books are historical ones. As time goes on things change, largely thanks to the protagonist (Shef Sigvarthsson) and his main enemy Bruno.

    The main result of this is that historical events and advancements of the age happen much faster. The key thing to note here about the novels is that Harrison is generally a sci-fi writter not a fantasy one, and that comes out in the book. A lot of it is about learning new things or re-discovering old ones. Now none of this get's silly, they don't get quite as far as discovering gunpowder (though you can tell that will happen much earlier) but each advancement matters. There is a lot of focus on siege weapons and things such as greek fire. Actually a lot of things that are in the game as standard (well kingdoms). The difference is when and where the things develope and the fact that we are looking at a late dark ages set up.

    Religion is a key aspect of the story with a lot of it being about the still Pagan Norsemen and the Holy Roman Empires attempt to eliminate it (The HRE develops early in the story and is a key faction). But it's not just Catholic vs Pagan, Part of England (the part that didn't turn Pagan in the story) turns it's back from the catholic church while remaining christian and the third book largely involves Islam and Judaism. A lot of actual historical factions are involved or mentioned, which set me up quite well for the mod.

    On top of what is involved or mentioned in the stories I've expanded things to include many other factions of the age. My start data is 886 and we progress at 0.5 years per turn, so it takes a while to catch up to the events in vanilla. However with things moved on so quickly, technological advances come through at a frightening pace (well, okay it's not actually scary).

    The main change from history is in England, where the first book is based (and my mod starts up at around the end, but with my own alternate twist to allow two of the killed characters to still be present). In the first story the viking army ends up splitting in two, with one side becoming a mixture of English and Viking and led by Shef Sigvarthsson, an Englishman who's mother was raped by a raiding viking (but many believe he is actually the son of an obscure Norse God). The other side is that under command of the sons of Ragnar Lothbrok (including Shef's main antagonist in the first novel, the historical character of Ivar the Boneless (though many historians would no doubt disagree with his portrail). Eventually the Ragnarssons are driven off and Shef's faction become allied to that of Wessex led by Alfred (e.i. Alfred the great) and together they also see off a crusade against them commisoned by the church (due to the vikings and Shef/Alfred taking lands and slaves away from them) and led by Charles the Bald of the West Franks. The end result is that rather then Danelaw, England is split west and east into the West Saxons and the East Angles and they are strongly allied.

    As we progress to the second book, Shef ends up also as king of all the North, but in the game that hasn't happened yet and is anyway partially reflected by an alliance with the Kingdom of the Waymen, which is a sort of unofficial title I have given to the Scandinavian regions that are under the influence of "The Way", a key religious movement amonst the norse pagans which preaches knowledge, learning and an amount of religious tolerance instead of bloody human sacrifices (such as the Ragnarssons and those in Uppsala practice). I had to take some liberties with their lands geographically to fit them on the map, at some point I may try and make a new map, which is shifted slightly to the north but for now the placing is a little off. Though having said that, a lot of these locations aren't 100% defined where they were in real life anyway.

    Meanwhile, largely as a reaction to this a new leader is found for the christians in the warrior monk Bruno (A member of the Lanzenorden, which is essentially the teutonic order but starting many years earlier), who forges himself an empire in the east frankish lands and after finding the Holy Lance (in the hands of Shef no less) builds and expands the empire to cover most of the lands previously ruled by Charlemain. His power is strengthened by an alliance to the Byzantium empire, whose own goals are to deal with the Muslims to the south rather then the Pagans to the north. This isn't somethng Bruno cares for, but he is interested in finding the Holy Grail and that is rumoured to be in Arab controlled lands. The third book is mostly set in Spain, as ruled by the Caliph of Cordova. Cordova initially seeks to ally itself with England, but eventually that turns sour, leaving Shef and his small travelling army seeking refuge from both Cordova and the HRE in Jewish Septiminia.

    The final battle of the book takes place in Rome itself.

    Anyway, enough of the background. I will post more info on the actual mod and screencaps soon. But for the moment, here are the factions involved.

    The Protagonists factions and Allies:

    The East Angles - Shef's faction. Pagan (followers of "The Way"). (Stamford as capital) Almost always a the head of technical innovation.
    The West Saxons - Alfreds faction. Orthodox. (Winchester as capital)
    The Kingdom of the Waymen - Scandinavian Pagans.followers of "The Way". (Kaupang as capital)
    Septimania - The small Jewish princedom based at Narbonne.

    Rival Factions:

    The Ragnarssons - Mostly Danish, Pagan vikings led by the four surviving sons of Ragnar, including Sigurd Snake-in-the-eye and Ivar the Boneless. (Capital is the Breathraborg). They also control Dublin, where Ivar the Boneless has retreated back to.
    Kingdom of Uppsala - Agressive, old school Swedish Pagans. They hate The Way almost as much as they hate Christians. They also control the legendary Jomsborg, so I could include it in the game.
    The Holy Roman Empire - Strong (Catholic) religious powerhouse centred in the German lands. Ruled by Bruno, holder of the Holy Lance and knight of the Lanzenorden. Also supported by the Saxon deacon Erkenbert who is both ingenious (like Shef, good at designing Siege weapons) and a war monger.
    The Kingdom of the Franks - Previously the West Franks. Charles the Balds faction, clinging on to life between the Empire and the Pagans. Despite risking ex-comunication for it's failed crusade, still catholoic. (capital is Paris)
    The Caliphate of Córdoba - A rich and powerful (Islamic) nation, inhabiting most of modern day Spain, yet threatened by the alliance of the HRE and Byzantium and perhaps even the Pagans of England. Not without it's own technological advancements.
    The Byzantium Empire
    - Involved in the novels less then the HRE and only really due to the greek fire ships. Mostly concerned with ridding the islands of the inner sea of Islam, but also somewhat occupied with Bulgaria. Orthodox.

    Historic Factions:

    Kingdom of Alba (Catholic) - Proto-Scotland.
    Ireland (Catholic)
    Duchy of Britany (Catholic)
    The Normans (Catholic) - They have only recently settled in Caen.
    Galacia (Catholic) - Proto-Portugal?
    Asturias (Catholic) - Proto-Spain
    The Kingdom of Italy (Catholic)
    Venice
    (Catholic)
    Papal States (Catholic)
    Kingdom of the Polanes (Catholic) - Proto-Poland
    Great Moravia (Orthodox) - Slavic faction of central Europe.
    The Bulgarian Empire (Orthodox)
    Kievan Rus (Orthodox) - Recently changed capital to Kiev from Novgorod.
    The Khaazar Khanate (Jewish) - A Once powerful Jewish Turk faction.
    The Magyars (Pagan) - Proto-Hungary (pre christianisation).
    The Abbasid Caliphate (Islam) - Proto-turks
    The Tulanid Emirate (Islam) - current (in the game) rulers of Egypt
    The Fatamid Caliphate (Islam) - Eventual, short-lived rulers of Egypt.

    The Mongols are actually included as emerging, but you have to be playing for a long time to get to them! The Timurids were never going to happen, so they got replaced. The Aztecs seemed redundant in this mod, so they too got replaced. However I changed many of their units to slave and added them as a rebel faction so it has some feel of them being there. I also added in Apache's for North America, because I could.

    and that's it. I don't think I have forgotten anyone. Yes, there are a lot of factions in there.

    Quick note on Pagan buildings: I have allowed polythesic religions to have more then one type of temple (stealing the template from the Kingdoms Lithuania). Which dietys are available depends on the faction. The Norse pagans share several temples (e.g. Temples to Thor can be built by most) but all have a unique mix (4 of the available 7). The Magyars can build temples to two of their main gods and the Mongols should they ever make it to the game can only build generic pagan temples and only in cities. The Norse folk also gain pendant ancillaries to show their dedication to a patron diety. Technically only the Way Followers should gain this but I haven't yet limited that.

    Okay until next time.
    Last edited by Fenrisfil; May 05, 2009 at 08:20 PM. Reason: slight mistake

  2. #2

    Default Re: Hammer and the Cross, Dark Age Mod.

    Love this book!
    CoW (Rage of the Dark Gods)team
    From Russia with love.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Hammer and the Cross, Dark Age Mod.

    Where are those pictures from? They are awesome. I knew right away what scenes they were depicting too.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Hammer and the Cross, Dark Age Mod.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenrisfil View Post
    Where are those pictures from? They are awesome. I knew right away what scenes they were depicting too.
    My own illustrations to "hammer and cross" made in 1999
    Last edited by Timorfeys; April 19, 2009 at 02:27 PM.
    CoW (Rage of the Dark Gods)team
    From Russia with love.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Hammer and the Cross, Dark Age Mod.

    Nice! Although if I had paid attention to the runes in the corner I would have known.

    If your up for it, I wonder if I could use these somewhere in the mod? Loading screens and the like maybe.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Hammer and the Cross, Dark Age Mod.

    Sure, give you permission to use them.
    CoW (Rage of the Dark Gods)team
    From Russia with love.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Hammer and the Cross, Dark Age Mod.

    im just trying to make sense of the background info....what are a group of vikings doing in Spain and fighting in Rome....the plot seemed interesting right to that point..unless its alternative history then anythin goes i guess.


    Watch some of me replays for RTW http://www.youtube.com/user/TeutonicJoe

  8. #8

    Default Re: Hammer and the Cross, Dark Age Mod.

    Yes it is an alternative history. The entry point of the novels is historic and many of the characters are, but the activities of the protagonist lead things away from history and speed up most historic events, like Crusades happening much earlier then in real life and the Holy Roman Empire forming with a different leader. In the third book they even lay the groundwork for other Knightly orders. It may sound far fetched, but if your following the books it makes total sense. In the first book England morphs from the historic one to an alternative one, the main part of which is creating a new faction (part Norse, part English). In the second novel the faction expands to conquer scandinavia and locks horns with the HRE. That drives the empire to seek an alliance with the Byzantium Empire. But their priorities are against the arabs, so when the combined force starts attacking them, the Caliph of Cordova seeks to make an alliance with England. Which is where you get the Vikings running around Spain.

    I know most people that are on these forums probably haven't read the books. But hopefully when it's finished I'll be able to make the game seem to make as much sense as the novels. I really don't know if it'll appeal to people that haven't read the books and I'm not really sure how much I should risk spoiling for future readers. No doubt the game won't end like the novels however.

    I have to say, I am really greatful that there is a huge amount of resources to help modders. That is a massive relief as it would have been impossible without them. That formatted modeldb file is a life saver for a start! I've just about got the hang of editing that without the game blowing up now, which is nice. There's still a lot of things causing me trouble but I've found ways around most problems (largely by searching the forums).

    Currently I have a working beta, but I set up the data side first so currently a lot of units have the wrong skins or even models. I won't be doing anything amazing with that as I'm not so confident with that (and I'm not even going to try making my own 3d models), but now I can kit bash with the models and edit the textures I can sort things out well enough.

    I've tried to make things not effected by the alternate history accurate to real history. But where there is little info on the historic factions I've had to take massive liberties. That's the tricky thing with doing a mod set in the dark ages. The alternate history let's me off a bit though as I can always say it's part of the "alternate" side. Factions like the Khazaar Khanate, I've pretty much had to guess at as far as units go. I probably could have made things more accurate to the novels not including factions like that, but I like the dark ages and it was a good oppertunity to research it some more while making the mod and personally I find the more factions the better (I think I'm one short of the max at the moment). With some of the units I've tried to replace ones that wouldn't be present with ones that may have been (for example I've replaced Tartars with Pechenegs) and generally tried to put in more low tech units to at least show the starting point as below the technology levels of the vanilla game.

    After I've finished this mod it actually wouldn't be that hard to mod that to a historic dark ages mod. Mostly it would just involved taking things out rather then putting them in.

    Right, that was much longer then I though. I don't have many good screencaps yet, but here is the faction map:



    Kinda hard to explain which faction is which here though, so don't know the value of it. Lol.
    Last edited by Fenrisfil; April 21, 2009 at 08:20 PM. Reason: mixed metaphor

  9. #9

    Default Re: Hammer and the Cross, Dark Age Mod.

    Okay, I've tried to make the faction map clearer:



    1. East Angles
    2. West Saxons
    3. Ragnarssons
    4. Alba
    5. Ireland
    6. The Waymen
    7. Uppsala
    8. The Normans
    9. Brittany
    10. Kingdom of the Franks
    11. The Holy Roman Empire
    12. Caliphate of Córdoba
    13. Asturias
    14. Gallacia
    15. Septimania
    16. Kingdom of Italy
    17. The Papal States
    18. Great Moravia
    19. Polanes
    20. Magyars
    21. Bulgaria
    22. Byzantium
    23. Kievan Rus
    24. Khazaar Khanate
    25. Abbasids
    26. Tulanids
    27. Fatamids

    (28. Mongols)
    Last edited by Fenrisfil; May 05, 2009 at 08:17 PM. Reason: spelling

  10. #10
    Heathen Storm's Avatar Where's my axe?
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    Default Re: Hammer and the Cross, Dark Age Mod.

    Hey mate. If this mod is dead you are more than welcome to come help with mine It is essentially the same as yours, just not following the book (which i've never had the fortune to hear of). It's about pagan rebellions all over Europe... Feel free to come over to my forum and check it out! http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=367081

    Proud mod leader, modeller and public relations officer of Heiğinn Veğr: Total War


  11. #11
    Goodis's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: Hammer and the Cross, Dark Age Mod.

    Sounds awesome!

  12. #12
    Hrobatos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Hammer and the Cross, Dark Age Mod.

    this is probably dead

  13. #13

    Default Re: Hammer and the Cross, Dark Age Mod.

    Hi all. It's not dead. I just got a little bit overwhelmed with it and put it aside for a while. Trying to do everything yourself isn't easy! Plus with ETW and NTW out I figured people would be occupied. The Mod was actually mostly done, but while I'm used to modding stuff I'm not so used to releasing them to the world so the finishing bits are perhaps the hardest for me. I spent the best part of a year working on it and it drained me, but having done so much and it not looking like a M3TW will be out soon to make it redundant I will certainly finish it!

    Mostly what needs to be finished off is graphical work and flavour text. The campaign set up is all good, the new units are in, new traits and ancillaries, the new building structures (mostly the many different Pagan temple types, with restrictions on who can have what). I was having some issues with Judaism due to flavour text being culture based but it's not a biggie. Once I've done the remaining graphics and text it is basically ready for release. Though there are a number of things I wanted to add, mostly scripting to try and force certain events to happen when out of the players hands, but those things can be added in future versions.

    Heathen Storm - Though I am finishing mine and won't have the time to help much, if you can benefit from any of my research I will gladly help out. I'm pretty much a dark age obsessive, so just send questions my way and good luck with the Mod! I also note your mod is set later then mine so we shouldn't be treading on each others feet which is a happy bonus!
    Last edited by Fenrisfil; October 13, 2010 at 03:41 PM.

  14. #14
    Heathen Storm's Avatar Where's my axe?
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    Default Re: Hammer and the Cross, Dark Age Mod.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenrisfil View Post
    Heathen Storm - Though I am finishing mine and won't have the time to help much, if you can benefit from any of my research I will gladly help out. I'm pretty much a dark age obsessive, so just send questions my way and good luck with the Mod! I also note your mod is set later then mine so we shouldn't be treading on each others feet which is a happy bonus!
    Ahh its a pity, I would've liked to merge mods I'm actually quite done with most of the research, haha. I mean, I need a full roster for most of the factions but i've got pretty much everything lined out. Thank you though mate! I'll keep watching your mod as well

    Proud mod leader, modeller and public relations officer of Heiğinn Veğr: Total War


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