Muskets vs swords?

[emperor77]

So i've been playing this mod for a bit now, and it seems to me every time swordsmen attack my line infantry the swordsmen usually win. Shouldn't they get cut down by musket fire on approach? It seems to me muskets do too little damage to the enemy unit at close range.

[JaM]

depends on unit experience, more experienced units are able to rout incoming enemy quite quickly. Green rookie infantry has no chance...

[emperor77]

So rookie line infantry have no chance against rookie swordsmen?

[illenvillen23]

Pretty much, swordsmen pretty much knew they were going to die in a frontal assault and weren't quick enough for effective flank attacks so they seem to have more moral in order to actually get to the line.

[Midknight]

Havent we covered this in another thread ? - heavy muskets converted with a stick on blade at the end vs a dedicated hand to hand weapon is going to be no contest really.
If the line was charging (ie a bayonet charge) then they would have more success but not in defence - a few might cop it on the ends of a bayonet but once the swordsmen were within the line it wouldn't be pretty for the shooty guys.

[the_mango55]

Is this early or late?

Early battles, where the musket unit has no rank fire and no bayonet, they will lose to melee units.

Late battles they kick ass.

[Bob the Insane]

Pretty much, swordsmen pretty much knew they were going to die in a frontal assault and weren't quick enough for effective flank attacks so they seem to have more moral in order to actually get to the line.

Note that there is a +10 bonus to morale of a charging unit, so it can actually be quite hard to route a unit in those last moments before impact...

[Society]

So i've been playing this mod for a bit now, and it seems to me every time swordsmen attack my line infantry the swordsmen usually win. Shouldn't they get cut down by musket fire on approach? It seems to me muskets do too little damage to the enemy unit at close range.

One thing I noticed in the new versions of Darthmod is that if you don't tell your units to attack they will hold their formation like they're holding back the armies of hell, but they will not be very aggressive in killing the enemy. This makes them good when you're defending a bayonet charge and trying to flank and don't want your formation to get muddled up into a melee, but not so good when you want to kill things.


When they engage your line, stay defensive so that your line infantry's high defense rating holds the charge, then hit the attack button, and your line infantry will start stabbing the out of them.

Havent we covered this in another thread ? - heavy muskets converted with a stick on blade at the end vs a dedicated hand to hand weapon is going to be no contest really.
If the line was charging (ie a bayonet charge) then they would have more success but not in defence - a few might cop it on the ends of a bayonet but once the swordsmen were within the line it wouldn't be pretty for the shooty guys.

This is false. Swords are nice, but well trained infantry of the period were usually as well trained in melee skills as any swordsmen would be. Yes, a Musket is a relatively heavy weapon compared to a regular pike, but that's not entirely a bad thing. Musketmen were trained to use their weapon just as a pikeman would, but could also use their weapon as a heavy club to boot.

[TWmadman]

it is not the same cost/upkeep but keep this in mind about darthmod :

GRENADIERS > ANY SWORDMEN ON THE EARTH in pure old style fight

you'll match them anytime, just charge!

conclusion : use line infantry to shoot, 4 grenadiers to charge, the rest of the army will assist grenadiers

[Midknight]

Which is why sword bayonets were developed to give riflemen the advantage of a spear/slicing type weapon as well as useful short sword.

[emperor77]

I was more like thinking how swordsmen would get obliterated when charging if they get shot point plank. They don't. They have max 10-20 casualties at point plank, so there is no chance to rout them before they reach the line (rookie line vs rookie swordsmen).

[bangell99]

I agree with Emperor. A point-blank volley should have devastating casualties, as we've discussed before.
If they actually get into a melee fight, the swordsmen will of course win.

[emperor77]

Exactly.

[the_mango55]

Well it depends

musket with bayonet is basically a spear. Spears have the advantage over swords in tight formations. If the swordsmen have sheilds it probably evens out, but almost nobody has armor, so it basically comes down to who is best drilled.

[alreadyded]

Well it depends

musket with bayonet is basically a spear. Spears have the advantage over swords in tight formations. If the swordsmen have sheilds it probably evens out, but almost nobody has armor, so it basically comes down to who is best drilled.

Up close and personal you are definitely better off with a sword than a spear or musket with bayonet. I was in USMC for four years and learned how to fight with rifle and bayonet. They taught us pretty much the same bayonet drill from two centuries ago, only for individual combat not in formations :p. A rifle or musket with bayonet is a heavy and awkward stab and whack weapon, not a slash weapon, making it pretty limited in close quarters combat but excellent for defense if you keep your enemy at a distance.

Swordsman are solely trained to fight with a sword in close combat, get in close a kill or injure. Lineman are mostly trained to hold their ground and send a certain amount of rounds down range in less then a minute, hopefully hitting something in the process. If I were a lineman I would probably die or run from swordsmen in close combat and I certainly would not be happy to see them charging at me!

Finally, in ETW with darthmod, if you time it right you can mow them down before they charge you, if your men have any accuracy at all. Especially if you get them in a bit of cross fire by slightly zig zagging your lines and crossing your fields of fire.

[L7R]

Musket weights 20 pounds. It was nearly impossible to fight with 20pound musket even against rookie swordsman. Just firing them was tiring. Swords were used throughout human history and trained hundred of years comparing muskets which were relatively new. And units got absolutely just basic training as to use them as a melee weapon (basically one thrust and run away -doesn't sound as heroically as we've read from history books, ha!). But usually they just ran away before melee. Think about native americans? If reached a line infantry they finished even the veteran infantry with their plain knives (albeit this also has to do with their relatively good fitness too), think about if they would have swords and hundreds of years of experience of wielding them.

[L7R]

Japanese were the first who started to use rifles successfully as a melee weapon (against russians IIRC). But basically only on offensive which have great effect to morale of russi.. eh, enemies. Banzaiiii! Still their field commanders and higher rank officers used swords which were still more effective as melee weapons.

[Feanaro]

Musket weights 20 pounds.

Ridiculous. Chop off 9 or 10 pounds and you'd be about right. The Land Pattern "Brown Bess" had a nominal weight of 10 pounds, with the French Charleville being about the same. See http://www.11thpa.org/neumann.html for some individual weight examples.

Swords were used throughout human history and trained hundred of years comparing muskets which were relatively new.

A musket with bayonet is a spear(albeit a clumsy one), a weapon far older than the sword. It also saw more general use. A spear can be a dangerous weapon in the hands of a trained user. Many martial arts died out in Europe due to the general rise of firearms but some manuals showing spear techniques are still preserved. Japanese Yari techniques also show what can be done with a spear.

Soldiers of this period would rarely have such training, of course.

[JaM]

LRZ: 18.century muslet didnt weight 20pounds... only heavy 16.century Spanish musket was that heavy, and Musketeers used an rest for it. 18.century musket was about 8-10pounds heavy at max. about the same weight as todays Assault Rifles.

[Rhio]

I agree with the OP that point blank volleys should be more devastating, kind of like in Cossacks II where a point blank volley would crush all but the most determined squads.