The Picts - Help!

[Quixote07]

So I've been playing around with the Picts, getting my celtic heritage on. They're quite fun. You never get anything that can stand toe to toe with pretty much the lowliest dedicated infantry anyone you'll ever fight get. Of course, to counter that you get glorious, glorious javelins.

My problem is I can't get off the ground.

The only cost effective unit I can really produce are Dimbas (they are fantastic in that regard, though). They suck up so much population, though! I just fought my 7th or so battle against the Romano British. They had about 3/4ths of a stack and I had a full stack. Roughly my 3500 versus their 1800. I killed nearly all of them. I lost about 1800 as well. Naturally, that's a big win on my side as far as resources lost in the battle.

The issue is that I can't afford to lose that much population to my army. I desperately need to get to higher town levels so I can upgrade my terrible economy. The second issue is that even though I'm being far, far, more efficient militarily (costs them so much more to replace their lost men than it does mine), I'm worried that I'll never get ahead because the AI might get bonuses to population growth and their economy.

Anyone have any tips for a VH/M Pictish general? Am I misunderstanding Pictish infantry? They just seem to be arms to throw javelins with. Anything that fights with a spear seems terribly outclassed, so I generally avoid getting them.

[Riothamus]

So I've been playing around with the Picts, getting my celtic heritage on. They're quite fun. You never get anything that can stand toe to toe with pretty much the lowliest dedicated infantry anyone you'll ever fight get. Of course, to counter that you get glorious, glorious javelins.

My problem is I can't get off the ground.

The only cost effective unit I can really produce are Dimbas (they are fantastic in that regard, though). They suck up so much population, though! I just fought my 7th or so battle against the Romano British. They had about 3/4ths of a stack and I had a full stack. Roughly my 3500 versus their 1800. I killed nearly all of them. I lost about 1800 as well. Naturally, that's a big win on my side as far as resources lost in the battle.

The issue is that I can't afford to lose that much population to my army. I desperately need to get to higher town levels so I can upgrade my terrible economy. The second issue is that even though I'm being far, far, more efficient militarily (costs them so much more to replace their lost men than it does mine), I'm worried that I'll never get ahead because the AI might get bonuses to population growth and their economy.

Anyone have any tips for a VH/M Pictish general? Am I misunderstanding Pictish infantry? They just seem to be arms to throw javelins with. Anything that fights with a spear seems terribly outclassed, so I generally avoid getting them.

Hi Quixote07,
Happy to see someone here giving the Pics here a go.

The Picts are at a serious disadvantage and as they should be in comparison to must other factions historically.
1..Populationis low and econ is bad
2..Armies are ok but need to use there elite units too do any expanding
3..Must fight and expand a little at the start...the armies you are currently carrying at the start will quickly bring your econ down.
4..Playing on VH campaign is da balls when playing the Pics lol

..Concentrate on your capital to recruit good units at first. You can recruit them at the gov palace and also send out a few spies and diplomats..your going to need to for knowing where to ally and fight.

-Scope out the Romano British regions and the Gael ones too.
- Ally and with the Saxons and Roman Britones soon as possible
- Decide which way you want to fight first, the Gaels or the Romano British...Two rebel cities are in between you and the Gaels that are fruitful but are strong and might bring you into conflict with the Gaels if you take them.

-Might be more advantages to first raid down into the Romano British lands first after allying with the Saxons and Romano Brits for they have many enemies at the start.
- After some victories start building your econ in those low pop towns
-Then prepare for the Gaels..

[Quixote07]

Just out of curiosity, what do you consider to be the better units?

The capitol city starts with a high enough government building to recruit essentially every unit. The only units you can't recruit from turn one are some of the religious ones, the unit that unlocks at the second level of the smithy, and cavalry.

The only thing that any pictish unit seems to be good at is throwing javelins. That's totally cool, I like the unique playstyle and the level of challenge. There's simply no way that any unit of melee troops I get can stand toe to toe with any other melee unit. Their stats are inferior, and on top of that they also have universally small unit sizes.

My current tactics are simply to make sure a very large proportion of my army are Dimba, and then the rest are a 3:1 ratio of basic spearmen (I forget their exact name) to the elite religious spearmen. They can't do much more than pin the enemy, but that's usually enough to let the javelins do their job. Even the elite of the Pictish army, the religious spearmen, the naked warriors, the swordsmen - every single one of these units will lose on a unit per unit basis with british Auxilia, or saxon Geburas. Now I completely understand that the Picts should be at a military disadvantage, but every single one of their units losing to the poorest infantry available to nearby factions? The only reason I've been able to win any battles as the Picts so far is due to the cost effectiveness of Dimba. That one unit is the only unit worth recruiting currently.

Speaking of them, one thing you might want to look at are the stat disparity between the Chodaeor and the Dimba. Chodaeor are javelin wielding light infantry. I would assume they're supposed to be superior to Dimba, because they're more expensive (by far, more than twice as expensive to purchase and 4 times the upkeep) and they don't deploy in horde formation. However, Dimba have nearly equal melee stats (5 melee, 4 charge, 11 defense to 6,5,9 IIRC), equal missile damage, more ammunition, and they're 50% larger! I can't find a single reason to recruit Chodaeor over Dimba, except maybe population usage. That said, I'd rather have two units of Dimba than three of Chodaeor (same population, but the Dimba will be a fraction of the price).

Edit - Just to further expand upon this

There's a book I have, though I can't find my copy right now, called Pictish Warrior: AD 297 - 841. It highlights the depth of the warrior tradition in Pictish society. I can believe absolutely that the picts could be at a discplinary, maybe even a technological disadvantage (though that one I'm not sure about, the Picts were essentially one of the most advanced celtic civilizations at around 450 AD. They did have the crossbow) but to have even their elite be crushed by the peaseants of Britain and Saxony?

Here's a passage that I found on google books from that book, giving a bit of a taste of what I was talking about.

"This people is light and active, hardy rather than strong, and entirely bred up to the use of arms; for not only the nobles, but all the people are trained to war, and when the trumpet sounds the alarm, the husbandman rushes as eagerly from his plough as the courtier from his court..."

[Quixote07]

Agh, I just realized that I don't actually have your version of the mod, I'm blind! Sorry, ignore this!

[Riothamus]

Edit - Just to further expand upon this

There's a book I have, though I can't find my copy right now, called Pictish Warrior: AD 297 - 841. It highlights the depth of the warrior tradition in Pictish society. I can believe absolutely that the picts could be at a discplinary, maybe even a technological disadvantage (though that one I'm not sure about, the Picts were essentially one of the most advanced celtic civilizations at around 450 AD. They did have the crossbow) but to have even their elite be crushed by the peaseants of Britain and Saxony?

Here's a passage that I found on google books from that book, giving a bit of a taste of what I was talking about.

"This people is light and active, hardy rather than strong, and entirely bred up to the use of arms; for not only the nobles, but all the people are trained to war, and when the trumpet sounds the alarm, the husbandman rushes as eagerly from his plough as the courtier from his court..."

These elite to good units will slaughter Saxon peasants and there solid core units too..They are pretty darn good
If anything I gave them quite the hardy warriors knowing their warrior tradition and there ability to fend off the Saxons. These units are certainly a warrior type class and would give the best units in the game trouble. It is that they just that they are scattered through out the Pic and Gael lands and very costly for a faction with a challenged technology and economy.

deaisbard
dinuadda claiomhnaghta
campwyrau (aor)
strathclyder (aor)
druids
bonheddwyr (aor)


gallowglass
hounds of culann

berserka type 2 hit points)
thomordaoer
audheran

Cav:
celtic warlord
noble clansmen celt

chodaoer has an attack of 12 and has a javelin to throw..very little armor and would still slaughter peasants

Agh, I just realized that I don't actually have your version of the mod, I'm blind! Sorry, ignore this!

Began to think so lol