Starting Technologies - Please Give Suggestions

**TheSavage** · April 14, 2009, 01:08 AM

In order to differentiate factions and give each one a specific emphasis or "flavor", I propose letting each faction start with a number of different techs to represent their strengths. This would give that faction a head start in that area. Quixote was open to the idea, so the purpose of this thread is to determine what techs each faction should start with.

When deciding this we'll need to balance historical accuracy with game balance. Some factions were obviously more advanced than others at 1700, but if we're completely accurate than faction like GB might be given too much of a headstart for the purpose of gaming. So it's probably best to limit even advanced factions to 3-4 starting techs max... maybe less advanced factions could get just 1-2.

To figure this out, we need answers for two questions:
1) Around 1700, what were this faction's strengths? (generally speaking, even if you don't want to mention specific technologies)
2) What specific techs are best to represent these strengths? (In some cases, the techs may have actually been developed before 1700.)

**TheSavage** · April 14, 2009, 01:19 AM

I'll start us out...

For example:
Great Britain: 1) enlightenment thinking, 2) naval tech, 3) trade
United Provinces: 1) trade, 2) naval tech

For specific techs, specific suggestions for GB and UP...
GB: Social Contract, Division of Labour, Joint Stock Companies
UP: Joint Stock Companies, Naval Shore Facilities, Seasoning

What about the other major factions? What were their strengths, and what specific techs should they start with?

**AlphaDelta** · April 14, 2009, 01:31 AM

I know this is a gameplay mod and not a history mod, but there are many military technologies that were available in 1700 (atleast to western European nations).

Fire by rank, plug bayonets, carbines and cannister shot. Light inf doctrine should be available for a few factions too.

Cheers

**TheSavage** · April 14, 2009, 01:36 AM

Bayonets:
Plug bayonets were first used by the British and French in the 1670's.
Early ring bayonets first appeared in the 1670's.
1697 - German and English adopt early "zig zag" socket bayonets
1703 - French adopt early socket bayonet (not sure if it was "zig zag" or ring socket type)

So at the very least, I think GB and Prussia should start with plug bayonets, possibly France also.

**Aegon** · April 14, 2009, 03:59 AM

I wouldn't give the bajonet tech to GB, only to Prussia. GB should get their bonus techs for trade and shipbuilding, if you start to give them military techs as well, they will become too strong. After all, they already have a pretty good starting position and a lot of special units and stuff.

**Tilarium** · April 14, 2009, 09:44 AM

Originally Posted by Aegon

I wouldn't give the bajonet tech to GB, only to Prussia. GB should get their bonus techs for trade and shipbuilding, if you start to give them military techs as well, they will become too strong. After all, they already have a pretty good starting position and a lot of special units and stuff.

Plus they'll never fight, they don't like to leave their little island, and the rest of the world is afraid of water

Seriously, my only advice is to be careful with techs. Give to many or even just certain ones and it can make a faction to strong at start. Plus, can't speak for everyone, but I like having things to research down the road. Give to many and I'll max out techs to quick. It's one of the main reasons I don't like the last part of RtI or the late campaign mod, to many things researched.

**AlphaDelta** · April 14, 2009, 10:05 AM

Even the playing field and match history by giving Fire by rank, plug bayonets, carbines and cannister shot to all European factions.

**uos_spo6** · April 14, 2009, 11:34 AM

Personally I think techs are fine as are. I wouldn't give any nation more than perhaps 1 specialized starting tech. You can run through the tech tree if you've got four or five schools going anyhow, then demolish and rebuild other buildings as necessary.

Give GB Empiricism, give UP Naval Shore Facilities, give Prussia plug bayonets and maybe ring bayonets to get them going, etc. etc.

**cherryfunk** · April 14, 2009, 12:25 PM

I think 1 or 2 techs per faction would be enough to give them a bit of an edge without taking the fun out of research...

**TheSavage** · April 14, 2009, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by Tilarium

Seriously, my only advice is to be careful with techs. Give to many or even just certain ones and it can make a faction to strong at start. Plus, can't speak for everyone, but I like having things to research down the road. Give to many and I'll max out techs to quick. It's one of the main reasons I don't like the last part of RtI or the late campaign mod, to many things researched.

I agree that we have to be careful of balance, which is why the starting techs may be based on history but will not be strictly historical (or else GB would be far too strong).

I was personally thinking about 2-3 techs per faction, and I think that's what Quixote was open to. Keep in mind that most of these would be first level techs, so it's only taking a few years off the technology tree. The purpose would be to make each faction feel more unique and true-to-life...

For example, although the United Provinces were small, they were a power because of their shipbuilding skill and their trade and banking acumen (although they were in the decline and London was on the rise at 1700). Right now, though, this isn't represented in the game. Giving them a little head start in these areas makes UP more unique and fun to play, and it also has strategic consequences when playing other factions. At first, it may be difficult to compete directly with the UP navy or finance, so do you emphasize another area to gain an advantage or make the investment to catch up?

**TheSavage** · April 14, 2009, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by Aegon

I wouldn't give the bajonet tech to GB, only to Prussia. GB should get their bonus techs for trade and shipbuilding, if you start to give them military techs as well, they will become too strong. After all, they already have a pretty good starting position and a lot of special units and stuff.

Yes I would agree with that.

**OTZ** · April 14, 2009, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by cherryfunk

I think 1 or 2 techs per faction would be enough to give them a bit of an edge without taking the fun out of research...

I really wish there was a way to implement a tech tree that is kind of like a "choose your own adventure" - i.e. multiple paths through one of the branches, but you can only choose one. As an example - part of the military tree could have three "trunks" - inf, cav, art, and of those there would be two branches - offensive and defensive theory...etc etc. I think the current tree is "neat" but as far as I can tell - at least in terms of in-game expereince so far- it gives the player more of an advantage.

**Quixote07** · April 14, 2009, 01:46 PM

Yeah, as soon as I can dig in and edit the tech tree, I think you'll be pleased, OTZ

**OTZ** · April 14, 2009, 01:52 PM

Is it within the realm of current modding capacities - or will we have to wait for the CA tools, or another modding breakthrough?

**Quixote07** · April 14, 2009, 01:54 PM

It isn't possible right now. I need to be able to create new effects for technologies, and we can't yet.

**mkk** · April 14, 2009, 02:43 PM

At an initial stage with the few options we have right now I would aim at only giving out a few low level techs. And that for nations that while expected to have them first and foremost also need them, like some navy tech for United Provinces and Portugal. Giving anything to Great Britain that research fine on their own and are already the top power feels counterproductive to me.

**cherryfunk** · April 14, 2009, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by Quixote07

It isn't possible right now. I need to be able to create new effects for technologies, and we can't yet.

Aha, I see the great Quixote is already scheming...

**TheSavage** · April 14, 2009, 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by OTZ

As an example - part of the military tree could have three "trunks" - inf, cav, art, and of those there would be two branches - offensive and defensive theory...etc etc.

Or you could do bayonet-focused versus shot focused...

And you could do conscript army vs. professional army...

On the enlightenment side you could have liberal (i.e. English model) vs. conservative (i.e. French model), the former giving more trade+industry perks and the latter giving more stability and prestige.

For industry you could do agrarian/rural vs. industrial/urban, with the agrarian maybe giving extra recruitment slot or pop growth and the industrial giving better industry and GDP growth.

**TheSavage** · April 14, 2009, 04:13 PM

Originally Posted by mkk

Giving anything to Great Britain that research fine on their own and are already the top power feels counterproductive to me.

Yeah I see where you're coming from... but on the other hand historically they were leading the way on most of the techs in the game, so it doesn't seem right not giving them any. What about just Social Contract and Division of Labour? Both of these ideas were developed by British thinkers in the mid-late 1600's. (OK Division of Labour is a very old idea but I'm referring to William Petty who was the first to revisit it in the enlightment.) Seems like these wouldn't give them an obvious material advantage at turn 1 but would set them out front as the preeminent thinkers of the time (which they were).

So what about nations like Spain, France, Austria, Russia, Sweden? Were these nations leaders in any specific field c. 1700?

**Arctander** · April 14, 2009, 04:50 PM

It's a realism vs fun thing I think TheSavage. GB is so incredibly overpowered (in part b/c of the fact that the AI can't launch naval invasions at all) that any further advantages just push the absurd to the egregious.