Most significant battle of the 18th century

[Trax]

Some six months ago we used to have two topics about 20th and 19th century so why not go further.
.Most significant battle of the 20th century
Most significant battle of the 19th century

I have few candidates

1. Poltava 1709 and Decline of Sweden and the Rise of RussiaAs the result Russia gets his "window to Europe" and Europe will never be the same.

2. Plassey 1757 and ce 200 years of British domination on the Indian subcontinent.

3. Saratoga 1777 the American colonies prove to be worthy of investment- French subsidies follow. France gets involved deeper and deeper in a war she can not afford to fight. A new republic in the New World rises from the ruins of old Europe.

4. Valmy 1792 Young revolution is saved - national guard defeats the best soldiers the old Europe.

So what do you think, I do not have a clear favourite this time.

[wilpuri]

I think I would go with Poltava. At least for us it was the most significant, probably.

[Sidus Preclarum]

Valmy wasn't much more than a cannonade, but its impact on Europe was immense: I like the contrast between the importance of the action itself and its consequences .

[Perkele]

I am not quite sure about Poltava. Did the swedes ever even have a chance of winning in there?

What I mean is that while it did in theory end the swedish reign, it would have probaply ended anyways. The swedes had burned all their manpower and economical resources, and once those 20 000 men that were still alive were defeated, Sweden could no longer muster such an army. Peter on the other hand, he probaply could have just created another army, and wait as what is left of the swedish army would starve to death or turn west.

[Xiaodun]

Originally posted by Perkele@May 10 2005, 10:43 AM
I am not quite sure about Poltava. Did the swedes ever even have a chance of winning in there?

What I mean is that while it did in theory end the swedish reign, it would have probaply ended anyways. The swedes had burned all their manpower and economical resources, and once those 20 000 men that were still alive were defeated, Sweden could no longer muster such an army. Peter on the other hand, he probaply could have just created another army, and wait as what is left of the swedish army would starve to death or turn west.

Poltava isnt just about Sweden.

The victory against the Swedish empire and the Russian dominion of the Baltic set the Russians as a great power.

[turcopolier]

I think that if the Swedes had won at Poltava, it would have presented a great threat towards Russia. Before the battle the Tzar had suppresed a cossack-rebellion, a rebellion which was the main cause for the Swedish army to enter Ukraine. If the Russian army would have lost, perhaps more cossack tribes would have rebelled against Russian authority (sp?) leading to much needed support for the Swedes. But then again... the battle was more or less lost from the start due to the Russian superiority in numbers. The Caroline army was made up by a far better quality troops, but after the march over the steppes and all... Carl XII would have needed to do an "Alexander" or "Hannibal" here... :happy

[Gelatinous Cube]

My knowledge of the 1700s is sort of rusty, but I daresay it would either have to be something from the American Revolution (think of a world with no America&#33, or the Storming of the Bastille (that was before 1800, no?).

[Rapax]

Originally posted by Gelatinous Cube@May 13 2005, 10:26 AM
or the Storming of the Bastille (that was before 1800, no?).

The storming of the bastille was no battle, as no one was really defending it. The famous painting is somewhat glorifying things.

[Xiaodun]

Originally posted by Gelatinous Cube@May 13 2005, 03:26 AM
My knowledge of the 1700s is sort of rusty, but I daresay it would either have to be something from the American Revolution (think of a world with no America&#33, or the Storming of the Bastille (that was before 1800, no?).

As Rapax pointed out, the Bastille isnt exactly a battle.

The importance of battles in the American revolution are seriously overexaggerated in importance in winning the war. Most of them are barely worth mentioning in world history (Lexington, Bunkerhill). The war was won by a long campaign of guerrilla warfare, logistical nightmares, and French aid. Perhaps the one most important is Saratoga. That got the French involved into the war, and may have had effects on the French Revolution.

My personal choice is Valmy. If the French republic was utterly crushed, democracy and republics would never have evolved much and had stayed the government for a few insignificant states (unless you count the British, but they have a constitutional monarchy).

[Peachy Carnehan]

I think the most significant depends on where you are, and what has impacted you. I would say Saratoga just because that has had the greatest impact on me, even though many of those other battles may have had more far-reaching effects and consequenses.