Grenadiers not having grenades

[KindredBrujah]

Hey there, I had a wee look through this forum and couldn't see any other post in this regard.

Could someone explain to me why the Grenadiers do not throw grenades in this mod?

To the best of my understanding, the idea of a 'Grenadier' just being, basically, an elite Line Infantry unit didn't appear until the mid-to-end of the Eighteenth Century. The Unit derived its name (and hat) from the fact that they DID originally throw grenades.
Additionally, it renders a number of tech tree researches useless, as there is no longer a unit in-game (so far as I know) which actually does use grenades.

Obviously if this is a gameplay issue, or corrects some kind of vanilla bug (which, to be honest, would hardly be surprising), then all good. Otherwise, I don't really see the purpose.

[cherryfunk]

As I understand the logic:

A. Not historical; they weren't used in this period. At best grenades were a specialty weapon used in sieges, not field battles.

B. Unbalanced; since the grenades can't be limited in number, you have a unit with unlimited grenades, which can be massively unbalanced. The player can use them to far better effect than the AI, which gives the player a huge advantage, and we really don't need any advantages...

[Quixote07]

As soon as I can change the Grenade ability to limit their ammo capacity, I'm definitely going to look at returning them.

As it stands now, it just wasn't feasible.

As far as the tech tree is concerned, yeah, it does make Improved Grenades a bit worthless for non-Russian or Ottoman factions, but on the other hand there are already a lot of filler "gateway" technologies that don't really do anything. Military Syllabus anyone?

[KindredBrujah]

...there are already a lot of filler "gateway" technologies that don't really do anything.

No argument there.

Regarding the ammo thing: Yeah, it makes sense to leave it out until you can modify that. I figured it'd be something along those lines.

Cherryfunk: They were used during the time, I believe, but only sparingly, due to the technology's inherent inaccuracy and danger to the wielder (and his regiment) due to premature explosions and mistimed throws.

I would set them up as follows, if it were possible:

Early Period: Grenadiers are big, strong men, who wield a limited number of grenades (say 3), are strong in mêlée, but with poor musket skills (poor accuracy and reload). They would wear the traditional Mitre Cap.

Late Period: Grenadiers are still big and strong, but no longer carry grenades. As they are the élite of the other regiments, they are now as capable or better than regular Line Infantry with a musket. They are still ferocious mêlée warriors. They now wear Bearskins to differentiate them from the originals.

I guess you could have only those Nations who really did wear Bearskins wear them if you wish.

[mkk]

One tiny thing I've never understood about the grenadier unit, seven feet men with two foot tall hats can hide in light scrub?

[cozmoisme]

Hide where they least expect you too .

[Timefool]

A. Not historical; they weren't used in this period. At best grenades were a specialty weapon used in sieges, not field battles.

Thats right they were used 1700 years before this time period. Just watch 300 and see for yourself.

[the_mango55]

You could just remove improved grenades from the tech tree and make explosive shot take a little longer to research.

[Quixote07]

Isn't the end result essentially the same? It'd also cut the effectiveness of Russian and Ottoman grenadiers in half.

[the_mango55]

You could give them improved grenades from the start.

And I guess you could say it's essentially the same, but it would be simplified.

Alternatively, you could use the research to give some other bonus to the grenadiers. Like the "improved carbines" technology.

[Dogmeat]

Idea: If you could make grenades limited ammo and available Only when you have the Siege deployment bonus (trenches and stuff) that would make them both realistic (as that was there main use in sieges) and balanced imho. (not sure how you would mod it but thats quixies problem hehe)

[Gora sahib]

Idea: If you could make grenades limited ammo and available Only when you have the Siege deployment bonus (trenches and stuff) that would make them both realistic (as that was there main use in sieges) and balanced imho. (not sure how you would mod it but thats quixies problem hehe)

That sounds like a good idea, if its possible. If it isnt possible then Id say keep grenades out all together, even if a way to limit their ammo is discovered. From what Ive read, grenades were rarely used (and yes this has been said many times but I think it needs saying again).

[the_mango55]

So what does the name mean then?

[Gora sahib]

So what does the name mean then?

*points to the internet* The info. is out there ... but Ill go ahead and give you the very short and simplified version.

Originally, in the 17th century, grenadiers where troops who specialized in the use of the grenade. But along comes the 18th century and their role changed more into that of elite line infantry.

Things like this are quite common in military history - something is started for one purpose, given a name, but the role changes over time, while the name remains. This is why there is still a 7th Cavalry in the US army, but they aint riding around on horses anymore.

[Franbo]

The Wikipedia intro indicates that:


^{A grenadier (derived from the word grenade) was originally a specialized soldier, first established as a distinct role in the mid to late 17th century, for the throwing of grenades and sometimes assault operations. At this time grenadiers were chosen from the strongest and largest soldiers. By the nineteenth century, the throwing of grenades was no longer relevant, but grenadiers were still chosen for being the most physically powerful soldiers and would lead assaults in the field of battle. Grenadiers would also often lead the storming of breaches in siege warfare, although this role was more usually fulfilled by all-arm units of volunteers called forlorn hopes, and might also be fulfilled by sappers or pioneers.}


I do like the grenades in the vanilla game - instinctively I'd agree that they should have limited ammo; then again I never really found myself using grenades all that much due to the range anyway (usually one throw then charge - a few times during a battle).

Franbo

[Jingles]

I was at first a bit miffed about the loss of grenades, as they DID use them in urban battles and sieges during this period, and I myself rarely used them more than once or twice per battle anyway. It made clearing out buildings alot easier, which is what the grenades were intended for in real life.

[Harvey]

Hopefully they return in the future, but by now they're are way off to imbalanced without an ammunition limit.

[mkk]

Balance isn't really a problem as one can simply downsize the unit a bit and the unlimited grenades are no longer an issue. It seems modders are aiming more towards historical accuracy. But I don't feel that there's much use for another version of line infantry, as handsome as these tall fellows may be.

[KindredBrujah]

At present it's the lesser of two evils. Whilst Grenadier units who actually threw grenades were fairly rare, Grenadiers who are just élite line infantry were not. So if it were only possible to have one, we need to use the latter.

[Quixote07]

Balance isn't really a problem as one can simply downsize the unit a bit and the unlimited grenades are no longer an issue. It seems modders are aiming more towards historical accuracy. But I don't feel that there's much use for another version of line infantry, as handsome as these tall fellows may be.

If you use Grenadiers like regular line infantry, then I can see them not being worth it though.

That said, though, check out their melee stats and their abilities. They have the best melee stats for any musket equipped unit, and they inspire fear in their enemies. Hence - CHARGE!