Hannibal of carthage

[Borat]

Hannibal (247-183 B.C.)

Hannibal is said to be one of the greatest military leader and strategist of all time. Hannibal was born in 247 B.C., when Carthage, then the maritime power, was beginning to decline. The Carthaginians were descendants of the Phoenicians, who were great Black merchants. They traded with India and the people of the Mediterranean, and the Scilly Isles.
When very young, Hannibal accompanied Hamilclar, his father in a battle with the Romans. Seventeen years later, he succeeded his father and became supreme commander of the peninsula. Hannibal had 80,000 infantry, 12,000 cavalry, and 40 African war elephants. He conquered major portions of Spain and France, and all of Italy, except for Rome.

Hannibal marched his army and war elephants through the Alps to surprise and conquer his enemies. In one battle, the Romans put 80,000 men on the field to defeat Hannibal, led by Scipio. When Scipio attacked with his entire army, Hannibal had so studied the grounds and arranged his men so that they surrounded the Romans. He then turned his armored war elephants loose and trampled them. Behind them, he sent his African swordsmen to complete the slaughter.

In another battle, Rome sent 90,000 men led by Varro and Emilius. With only 50,000 men, knowing he could not win by using his main force, Hannibal placed the weakest part of his army in the center, contrary to the best military rules. With his veterans and cavalry on both wings, the Romans struck them in full center as Hannibal had anticipated. When they were sure of victory by overcoming the center, Hannibal's flank closed in and killed 70,000 men, 80 senators and Emilius.

Hannibal later went on to become a statesman of Carthage, and later took his own life, rather than surrender to Rome. *bringiton*

[mogred]

Yeah I forget what battle it was but the casualty ratio was something like hannibal lost 6500 soldiers while the enemy lost 50,000. I think if he had stayed slightly more on the "downlow" he could have kept carthage a power for longer because he went back to carthage after his defeat at the hands of scipio the elder at zama, and he tried to decrease the amount of corruption but another statesman that used to be a general hanno who in my personal opinion is the biggest disaster in carthaginian history signed the treaty with the romans and when the romans demanded they turn over hannibal, hannibal had to flee to the court of antiochus the third I think and when the romans came there he killed himself....stupid hanno.

[Xiaodun]

Originally posted by mogred@May 8 2005, 01:43 PM
Yeah I forget what battle it was but the casualty ratio was something like hannibal lost 6500 soldiers while the enemy lost 50,000. I think if he had stayed slightly more on the "downlow" he could have kept carthage a power for longer because he went back to carthage after his defeat at the hands of scipio the elder at zama, and he tried to decrease the amount of corruption but another statesman that used to be a general hanno who in my personal opinion is the biggest disaster in carthaginian history signed the treaty with the romans and when the romans demanded they turn over hannibal, hannibal had to flee to the court of antiochus the third I think and when the romans came there he killed himself....stupid hanno.

Battle of Cannae. 80,000 of Romes elite slaughtered compeletly by a tired bunch of Gallic auxilaries, and libyan and Iberian mercinaries.

By the way, whats the point of this topic?

[PROMETHEUS ts]

Where did u took all this "altered" info?

[Sidus Preclarum]

Hannibal ? Never heard of him ...


:|

By the way, whats the point of this topic?

[hannibal89]

Firstly i'll address Greek 9

The Carthaginians were descendants of the Phoenicians, who were great Black merchants

The Phoenicians were not black. I have not heard a stupider thing in my life. Afrocentrism is extremely unfair and threatens to destroy all the phoenicians accomplished.

The descendants of the phoenicians today would be the inhabitants of Syria and Lebanon.
The Phoenicians were a semitic people, again i repeat neither them nor their carthaginian descendants and kin were black.

Navigate through the following site and you might learn something : www.phoenicia.org


Look i know nearly all there is to know about Hannibal, i can say this proudly and not arrogantly as i've put a lot of work in to learning about him.

Advice: 1- Read Hannibal by Theodore Ayrault Dodge
2-www.barca.fsnet.co.uk There are some minor errors here and there but its a great site and mostly accurate


Mistake number 1 was the phoenicians being black
Mistakes number 2,3

When very young, Hannibal accompanied Hamilclar, his father in a battle with the Romans. Seventeen years later, he succeeded his father and became supreme commander of the peninsula. Hannibal had 80,000 infantry, 12,000 cavalry, and 40 African war elephants. He conquered major portions of Spain and France, and all of Italy, except for Rome.

Hannibal accompanied Hamilcar to Spain at the age of 9, he never accompanied his father to a battle against Rome.
Hannibal did not conquer all of italy except rome, Hannibal conquered all of Southern Italy.

How could he have lost if he had done everything you said? Tell it how it was and do him justice.
Hannibal was the greatest general in the world and lost because of the carthaginian senate, and rome's determination

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Hannibal89
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To Mogred:

hannibal had to flee to the court of antiochus the third I think and when the romans came there he killed himself....stupid hanno.

1- Hannibal fled to the court of Antiochus the Third and asked him to attack Italy. Antiochus refused, and at Magnesia did not listen to Hannibal, and lost to the romans.

2- Hannibal committed suicide when in Bithynia not in the Seleucid Empire. I believe roman soldiers were forming up nearby his villa.

3- Yes Hanno "the great" was a fool. Its a pity Hanno the Navigator was not known as the Great, instead of the foolish Hanno getting the title.

Hannibal89
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To Deathdoom

By the way, whats the point of this topic?

He's discussing Hannibal obviously *tongue*

Hannibal89
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To Prometheus:

Where did u took all this "altered" info?

I corrected what was altered no worries, unfortunately my Italian friend, you will still think some is altered as your ancestors were roman :p , correct?

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To Sidus

Hannibal ? Never heard of him ...

You must be the funny one in the family :whistle


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Hannibal89

[Xiaodun]

Hannibal died at Bithynia? I heard he died in Armenia though Im not sure about that. Oh well, whatever you say.

[hannibal89]

Hannibal died at Bithynia? I heard he died in Armenia though Im not sure about that. Oh well, whatever you say.

Hannibal died in Lybissa, a place outside Bithynia, and under the rule of the bithynian emperor.

http://www.barca.fsnet.co.uk/hannibal-death.htm

At this time also occurred the death of Hannibal. Envoys had been sent from Rome to Prusias, monarch of Bithynia, a part of whose errand was to get him to give up Hannibal, who was at his court. But Hannibal learned of this beforehand, and being unable to escape, committed suicide. An oracle had once announced to him that he should die in the Libyssan or Libyan land, and he was expecting to die in Libya, his native country; but, as it happened, his death occurred while he was staying in a certain place called Libyssa. Scipio Africanus also died at this time." (Zonaras)

"He himself Hannibal died by drinking poison near Bithynia in a place called Libyssa by name, though he expected to die in his own Libyan land. For an oracle had once been written out for Hannibal to the following effect: "A Libyssan or Libyan clod shall hide the form of Hannibal." Later the Roman Emperor Severus, being of Libyan birth, placed in a tomb of white marble this man, the general Hannibal." (Tzetzes, Chil. 1, 798-805)

.....

The ruins of Lybissia, aka Hannibal's Castle, located right across the bay from Karamursel Air Station. Hannibal is supposed to have killed himself here rather than let the Romans capture him.

Bithynia and libyssa are in modern day Turkey.
Also i'm still waiting for Greek 9 to admit he's wrong and apologise for his mistaken facts about Hannibal, including the afrocentrist statement saying hannibal was black.
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Take Care Deathdoom.

Hannibal89

[Xiaodun]

Ah, I see. Thanks Hannibal.

[hannibal89]

no problem friend.

[Gelatinous Cube]

Here's a good and (as far as I know) accurate thingy on Hannibal Barca, for those interested.

I think Hannibal was one of the greatest military commanders of all time. Perhaps the greatest, considering the constant non-stop stream of amazing feats he was able to pull off for so long while in a hostile land, far from home, with native troops who's support for his cause was lukewarm at best. Few, if any, generals can boast to be as great as Hannibal.

[fallingstar]

Okay so people saying Hannibal is NOT black, by the way is he african? NO offense.


What happened to his body after the romans discovered it? did they sliced it and feed it to the lions ot gave him a honourable burial, because he did have a hard life himself.

One more question why in the world was he kicked out of Carthage?

[hannibal89]

To Gel Cube

I think Hannibal was one of the greatest military commanders of all time. Perhaps the greatest, considering the constant non-stop stream of amazing feats he was able to pull off for so long while in a hostile land, far from home, with native troops who's support for his cause was lukewarm at best. Few, if any, generals can boast to be as great as Hannibal.

Yup i agree with you. Well said. You're now on my buddy list :p

Okay so people saying Hannibal is NOT black, by the way is he african? NO offense.

Carthage is in Africa, but hannibal was not black. No offense is taken, i'll explain.
Hannibal was a carthaginian. they are descended from the phoenicians who come from Lebanon and Syria.
And who are not black.

What happened to his body after the romans discovered it? did they sliced it and feed it to the lions ot gave him a honourable burial, because he did have a hard life himself.

I dont think they found it. There are no records of him being mutilated by romans.

One more question why in the world was he kicked out of Carthage?

The carthaginian politicians were corrupt and disliked hannibal being shophet as he hated corruption and starting stomping on it. They therefore agreed to deliver hannibal to rome and he therefore fled.

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Hannibal89

[fallingstar]

Oh so hannibal body disappeared once he poisoned himself.

[hannibal89]

i think so, i know theres a tomb built for him later, but i dont think his body is in there.
I know had the romans mutilated it we'd know about it.
So i'm guessing he was buried.

[PROMETHEUS ts]

Hannibal was the greatest general in the world and lost because of the carthaginian senate, and rome's determination

And couse was defeated on field by Scipio the African.....

[hannibal89]

And couse was defeated on field by Scipio the African.....

Publius Scipio Africanus had better infantry, cavalry and around the same amount of men. How was he going to lose?
Scipio's legions were the survivors of Cannae (6000 who broke through the center and 16000 prisoners who were freed), these men then fought in Sicily and became very experienced. The other men were equally experienced.

Scipio had good roman cavalry and of course, massinissa's cavalry.

The odds were against him.

I believe Hannibal was the best overall general in history, Not Scipio. I dont even believe Scipio was the best overall roman general.

1- You merely dont know your history well, yes scipio was a good hearted man (not cruel like Nero), and he respected his foes
2- BUT Scipio let hasdrubal go loose at Baecula, and lost too many men there. Scipio also failed to take Carthage when it was unguarded and a day away!
Since you are italian and therefore biased, you should be praising the true Roman generals, Fabius and Marcellus ("the buckler/shield and the sword of rome")

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Hannibal89

[PROMETHEUS ts]

No man , do not worry that I know very well my and all the ancient classical history ..., you should not offend my knowlede couse differ by your toughts , Scipio , was probably the best of the roman generals , probably you are not aware of his other campaigns in Iberia , his suggestions to drop the attendist tactic of fabious the cunctator , and move the fight right in Carthaginian land to make Hannibal shift here with his army , that was all but crap , was a veteran army , plus favoured of the help of some italian troops that also went with him to fight Rome till the end more than surrender to her ..., the Romans instead wheren't superior and not the survivors of cannae couse this was much befoure and would be more old , they where instead recruited and trained newly since the sanate didn't want to ive Scipio more men not thusting his idea , which proved wrong, Hannibal was defeated by Marcellus too , yes , but those defeats where never definitive or decisive and always minor to the victories of Hannibal that anyway feared to face Marcellus in a certain way .....altouh he beated him as well , Scipio the African instead was a different fact ....

I do not understand why people think that my beeing italian is more important than the historical facts and so I couls not speack to say the thruth , people Hanniabl was a great general but not the greatest , he faced inferior generals until when he met Scipio ....

Study all the new innovative tactica of Scipio and you will understand what I mean the surrounding manouvers etc... the defeat of ZAMA was due not becouse Hannibal played it wrong , he played it well as well did Scipio , the only error was may be the use of not well trained elephants , but his troops where not the crap that is said to justify his defeat , but where veterans of many battles .....

Trying to minimize his intelligence by reporting untrue facts , minimize his troops and maximize the foes is just sad , history is not made by tricks to chane events as we would have liked them to be , but just take them for what they are....

may be the battle of ZAMA was the only one in which we could really say that 2 great general faced each other ....


Then About accusing be of false statements couse I am italian is stupid and offensive my friend , and is a lack of open mind to understandin and looking facts as a detauched person , free from any liking for one or another party .....accusing me of this is like to prove that this is what you are doin , fearing that my affermations come from a similar emotional behave....

[hannibal89]

To Prometheus

No man , do not worry that I know very well my and all the ancient classical history ..., you should not offend my knowlede couse differ by your

Hmm sounds familiar, thats what you did to ancient seaman isnt it? Well let's see if you deserve an apology:

1-

probably you are not aware of his other campaigns in Iberia

response 1 to this point) You're right, i didnt know about his other campaigns in iberia. I believed he just magically skipped through to central iberia (baecula). Besides i used baecula against scipio and is that your response? So i'll just claim you dont know about hannibal's other campaign, but i'm not like you...
respone 2 to this point : nope you insulted my knowledge, therefore you dont deserve an apology. An eye for an eye..


I take it the following is your good historical (and good english) interpretation of zama?

plus favoured of the help of some italian troops that also went with him to fight Rome till the end more than surrender to her ..., the Romans instead wheren't superior and not the survivors of cannae couse this was much befoure and would be more old , they where instead recruited and trained newly since the sanate didn't want to ive Scipio more men not thusting his idea , which proved wrong

1-You seem to have swapped it around. you totally discarded my point about Scipio having veterans from Cannae and Sicily and claimed they were old. I guess now you know more than Polybius and the other historians dont you?
2-And hannibal's entire army was composed of veterans? :w00t This is a pitiful discussion; he had 3 lines at zama, the front 2 were levies (this being worse than recruits) and only the third was the "old guard".

The entire roman force on the other hand consisted of professional infantry.

I do not understand why people think that my beeing italian is more important than the historical facts and so I couls not speack to say the thruth , people Hanniabl was a great general but not the greatest , he faced inferior generals until when he met Scipio ....

I just love when people say things like this. You know why? Because it demonstrates their ignorance to others. You were talking about scipios other campaigns in spain? You were undoubtedly referring to his master piece at Illipa, using your logic i can claim that scipio faced inferior generals throughout the war. (since you think hannibal was inferior to scipio that would mean at zama too).

So what is your point? Also if i wanted to be really annoying i could have merely said yes; they were all inferior because he was the best.

As i said Scipio was a good general and was honorable, but there are many in rome who were better and deserve credit.
Hannibal was the best.

Again i repeat my points, Baecula would have been a fatal mistake to the Roman Republic, had it not been for Nero.
Had Scipio taken Carthage when it was defenseless (and no im not exaggerating), he need not have faced Hannibal at Zama.

Trying to minimize his intelligence by reporting untrue facts , minimize his troops and maximize the foes is just sad , history is not made by tricks to chane events as we would have liked them to be , but just take them for what they are....

I reported untrue facts? I challenge you to find one incorrect thing i said. It was you who
1- Claimed Scipio did not have veterans at Zama :w00t
2-Claimed Hannibal's entire army consisted of veterans :w00t

Then About accusing be of false statements couse I am italian is stupid and offensive my friend , and is a lack of open mind to understandin and looking facts as a detauched person , free from any liking for one or another party .....accusing me of this is like to prove that this is what you are doin , fearing that my affermations come from a similar emotional behave....

It is a fact that you stand by your country's generals Prometheus i wont take that back. Not necessarily all Italians.
But you are here protecting Scipio just like you're in the Alexander VS Caeasar thread protecting Caesar.

1- I never said you were stupid because you were italian. Dont put words in my mouth i never said
2- I am accusing you? Here's what i'm gonna do, i'm gonna apologise for "offending you" even though you have insulted me, claimed my facts were incorrect when yours are, and put words in my mouth i never said.

So Prometheus i'm sorry i offended you.

Reply quick

Hannibal89

[Gelatinous Cube]

http://www.barca.fsnet.co.uk/Graphics/Hannibalbust.jpg

This guy look black? I didn't think so. The Cartheginians were a semetic people, as far as looks went. As seen by the bust of hannibal, not much different looking than any other white dudes around the world. The Cartheginians rarely had official relations (if ever) with the Libyan population, although alot of Bastard children called Liby-Phoenicians did exist. If I recall, they got preferential treatment in the military.