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Thread: For shame. Paris liberation made 'whites only'

  1. #101
    Manco's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: For shame. Paris liberation made 'whites only'

    Quote Originally Posted by Phalanx300 View Post
    Yes, except they weren't purposely starved to force a surrender of their husbands and fathers who fought for the independance..
    They weren't purposefully starved, that was due to the organizing officer's incompetence.

    Read, god damn it.
    Some day I'll actually write all the reviews I keep promising...

  2. #102

    Default Re: For shame. Paris liberation made 'whites only'

    Quote Originally Posted by Phalanx300 View Post
    Yes, except they weren't purposely starved to force a surrender of their husbands and fathers who fought for the independance..
    Got a source on that?

    Not that much into the Boer war, but to my knowledge Kitchener, who was already at the time a controversial fellow, wanted to do a scorched earth policy in reverse so to speak. Put the civilians into camps, keep the guerilla from resupplying by wrecking the countryside, poisoning the wells etc.
    No doubt conditions in the camps were very poor, but they improved when the British public became aware of what was going on. And the poor early conditions were to my knowledge not part of an extermination policy.
    Last edited by Visna; April 09, 2009 at 06:26 PM.

    Under the stern but loving patronage of Nihil.

  3. #103
    Phalanx300's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: For shame. Paris liberation made 'whites only'

    Quote Originally Posted by Maraud View Post
    They weren't purposefully starved, that was due to the organizing officer's incompetence.

    Read, god damn it.
    If only there were a god..

    They put people in concentration camps, women and children, they starve. They starved none the less, and pillaging the countryside didn't help with feeding as well.

    You do realise we're probably talking about thousands of captives.

    Why put them in concentration camps in the first place if you aren't mistreating them? Why would the Boeren even surrender if their familly was in good condition and this was maintained? Starving them to win a war is cowardly, the one who did that had no honour to speak of.

  4. #104

    Default Re: For shame. Paris liberation made 'whites only'

    Quote Originally Posted by Phalanx300 View Post
    If only there were a god..

    They put people in concentration camps, women and children, they starve. They starved none the less, and pillaging the countryside didn't help with feeding as well.
    Being put in a concentration camp does not necessarily equal being starved. After the British public became aware of the poor conditions in the camps Kitchener was forced to improve them. And as already said, to my knowledge putting the civilians in camps was not part of an extermination policy, and the poor conditions were because of incompetence. Not saying that makes it alright, of course it doesn't make it right. But it makes comparing it to the Holocaust wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phalanx300 View Post
    You do realise we're probably talking about thousands of captives.
    Absolutely. Tens of thousands, probably.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phalanx300 View Post
    Why put them in concentration camps in the first place if you aren't mistreating them? Why would the Boeren even surrender if their familly was in good condition and this was maintained? Starving them to win a war is cowardly, the one who did that had no honour to speak of.
    I'd be very interested in a source on that.
    Kitchener believed that by wrecking the countryside and by isolating the civilians from the guerillas, they would eventually be forced to either engage in open battle, where they could be killed, or forced to surrender because there simply wouldn't be resources around to continue their effort.

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  5. #105

    Default Re: For shame. Paris liberation made 'whites only'

    I fail to see what this has to do with the Paris liberation of 1944.

  6. #106

    Default Re: For shame. Paris liberation made 'whites only'

    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    I fail to see what this has to do with the Paris liberation of 1944.
    Are you saying it's going off topic?
    Nonsense, it's not going off topic, it's an evolving discussion...

    Under the stern but loving patronage of Nihil.

  7. #107

    Default Re: For shame. Paris liberation made 'whites only'

    Quote Originally Posted by Visna View Post
    Are you saying it's going off topic?
    Nonsense, it's not going off topic, it's an evolving discussion...
    Maybe we should contact a modera-

    oh hang on....

  8. #108
    Lysimachos11's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: For shame. Paris liberation made 'whites only'

    Quote Originally Posted by Яome kb8 View Post
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7984436.stm

    A sad story of how due to racism of the extreme the 65% of Frances army was not allowed to march into Paris in order to keep it ''whites only''. Not much to say, but for shame to all involved. The Americans for insisting on it via their own views, the French for complying like spineless and traitorous fools, and the British for sitting idly by dishonouring the Indian Army.
    I don't see any shame, it's logical that a proud nation such as France wishes Paris to be liberated by Frenchmen and not colonials. There is nothing racist about that.

    German soldiers have always been demonised while basically fighting for the same goals as their Allied counterparts (conscription, comradeship, protection of their native country), so why should it be a big deal that the Senegalese dont get any positive credit?
    Quote Originally Posted by Seneca
    "By the efforts of other men we are led to contemplate things most lovely that have been unearthed from darkness and brought into light; no age has been denied to us, we are granted admission to all, and if we wish by greatness of mind to pass beyond the narrow confines of human weakness, there is a great tract of time for us to wander through."

  9. #109

    Default Re: For shame. Paris liberation made 'whites only'

    Quote Originally Posted by Lysimachos11 View Post
    German soldiers have always been demonised while basically fighting for the same goals as their Allied counterparts (conscription, comradeship, protection of their native country), so why should it be a big deal that the Senegalese dont get any positive credit?
    Absolutely.
    You know what this is?



    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    That's a stand up fine individual defending his native country and fighting for comradeship.

    Under the stern but loving patronage of Nihil.

  10. #110

    Default Re: For shame. Paris liberation made 'whites only'

    Quote Originally Posted by Phalanx300 View Post
    Maybe you are blind?

    I gues the nazi's didn't intend to kill the Jews either? But they just did it anyways?



    I do?
    If you don't want to face facts, fine.
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.P. Taylor
    Peaceful agreement and government by consent are possible only on the basis of ideas common to all parties; and these ideas must spring from habit and from history. Once reason is introduced, every man, every class, every nation becomes a law unto itself; and the only right which reason understands is the right of the stronger. Reason formulates universal principles and is therefore intolerant: there can be only one rational society, one rational nation, ultimately one rational man. Decisions between rival reasons can be made only by force.





    Quote Originally Posted by H.L Spieghel
    Is het niet hogelijk te verwonderen, en een recht beklaaglijke zaak, Heren, dat alhoewel onze algemene Dietse taal een onvermengde, sierlijke en verstandelijke spraak is, die zich ook zo wijd als enige talen des werelds verspreidt, en die in haar bevang veel rijken, vorstendommen en landen bevat, welke dagelijks zeer veel kloeke en hooggeleerde verstanden uitleveren, dat ze nochtans zo zwakkelijk opgeholpen en zo weinig met geleerdheid verrijkt en versiert wordt, tot een jammerlijk hinder en nadeel des volks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Miel Cools
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen,
    Oud ben maar nog niet verrot.
    Zoals oude bomen zingen,
    Voor Jan Lul of voor hun god.
    Ook een oude boom wil reizen,
    Bij een bries of bij een storm.
    Zelfs al zit zijn kruin vol luizen,
    Zelfs al zit zijn voet vol worm.
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen.

    Cò am Fear am measg ant-sluaigh,
    A mhaireas buan gu bràth?
    Chan eil sinn uileadh ach air chuart,
    Mar dhìthein buaile fàs,
    Bheir siantannan na bliadhna sìos,
    'S nach tog a' ghrian an àird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jörg Friedrich
    When do I stop being a justified warrior? When I've killed a million bad civilians? When I've killed three million bad civilians? According to a warsimulation by the Pentagon in 1953 the entire area of Russia would've been reduced to ruins with 60 million casualties. All bad Russians. 60 million bad guys. By how many million ''bad'' casualties do I stop being a knight of justice? Isn't that the question those knights must ask themselves? If there's no-one left, and I remain as the only just one,

    Then I'm God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Napoleon III, Des Idees Napoleoniennes
    Governments have been established to aid society to overcome the obstacles which impede its march. Their forms have been varied according to the problems they have been called to cure, and according to character of the people they have ruled over. Their task never has been, and never will be easy, because the two contrary elements, of which our existence and the nature of society is composed, demand the employment of different means. In view of our divine essence, we need only liberty and work; in view of our mortal nature, we need for our direction a guide and a support. A government is not then, as a distinguished economist has said, a necessary ulcer; it is rather the beneficent motive power of all social organisation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang Held
    I walked into those baracks [of Buchenwald concentrationcamp], in which there were people on the three-layered bunkbeds. But only their eyes were alive. Emaciated, skinny figures, nothing more but skin and bones. One thinks that they are dead, because they did not move. Only the eyes. I started to cry. And then one of the prisoners came, stood by me for a while, put a hand on my shoulder and said to me, something that I will never forget: ''Tränen sind denn nicht genug, mein Junge,
    Tränen sind denn nicht genug.''

    Jajem ssoref is m'n korew
    E goochem mit e wenk, e nar mit e shtomp
    Wer niks is, hot kawsones

  11. #111
    Phalanx300's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: For shame. Paris liberation made 'whites only'

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Croccer View Post
    If you don't want to face facts, fine.
    Yes, since you are obviously right without doubt.

    Being put in a concentration camp does not necessarily equal being starved. After the British public became aware of the poor conditions in the camps Kitchener was forced to improve them. And as already said, to my knowledge putting the civilians in camps was not part of an extermination policy, and the poor conditions were because of incompetence. Not saying that makes it alright, of course it doesn't make it right. But it makes comparing it to the Holocaust wrong.
    It does not equal it, yet it did happen. In both things were they put in concentration camps, the very comparison is wrong yet it is there..

    Absolutely. Tens of thousands, probably.
    I think its at least 160.000 people.

    I'd be very interested in a source on that.
    Kitchener believed that by wrecking the countryside and by isolating the civilians from the guerillas, they would eventually be forced to either engage in open battle, where they could be killed, or forced to surrender because there simply wouldn't be resources around to continue their effort.
    Don't really have a source by hand.

    To me I see no point in surrendering if its clear that your familly will be good taken care of. Yet if they are starving them or treating them with death now thats a reason to surrender. Why surrender if nothing would happen to your familly otherwise?

  12. #112

    Default Re: For shame. Paris liberation made 'whites only'

    Yes, since you are obviously right without doubt.
    Indeed I am.

    It does not equal it, yet it did happen. In both things were they put in concentration camps, the very comparison is wrong yet it is there..
    German concentration camps put the inmates to work, malnourished and diseased them on purpose, whereas the British only did the latter by incompetence.

    I think its at least 160.000 people.
    Around 28.000 Boers died, along with 14.000 blacks.
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.P. Taylor
    Peaceful agreement and government by consent are possible only on the basis of ideas common to all parties; and these ideas must spring from habit and from history. Once reason is introduced, every man, every class, every nation becomes a law unto itself; and the only right which reason understands is the right of the stronger. Reason formulates universal principles and is therefore intolerant: there can be only one rational society, one rational nation, ultimately one rational man. Decisions between rival reasons can be made only by force.





    Quote Originally Posted by H.L Spieghel
    Is het niet hogelijk te verwonderen, en een recht beklaaglijke zaak, Heren, dat alhoewel onze algemene Dietse taal een onvermengde, sierlijke en verstandelijke spraak is, die zich ook zo wijd als enige talen des werelds verspreidt, en die in haar bevang veel rijken, vorstendommen en landen bevat, welke dagelijks zeer veel kloeke en hooggeleerde verstanden uitleveren, dat ze nochtans zo zwakkelijk opgeholpen en zo weinig met geleerdheid verrijkt en versiert wordt, tot een jammerlijk hinder en nadeel des volks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Miel Cools
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen,
    Oud ben maar nog niet verrot.
    Zoals oude bomen zingen,
    Voor Jan Lul of voor hun god.
    Ook een oude boom wil reizen,
    Bij een bries of bij een storm.
    Zelfs al zit zijn kruin vol luizen,
    Zelfs al zit zijn voet vol worm.
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen.

    Cò am Fear am measg ant-sluaigh,
    A mhaireas buan gu bràth?
    Chan eil sinn uileadh ach air chuart,
    Mar dhìthein buaile fàs,
    Bheir siantannan na bliadhna sìos,
    'S nach tog a' ghrian an àird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jörg Friedrich
    When do I stop being a justified warrior? When I've killed a million bad civilians? When I've killed three million bad civilians? According to a warsimulation by the Pentagon in 1953 the entire area of Russia would've been reduced to ruins with 60 million casualties. All bad Russians. 60 million bad guys. By how many million ''bad'' casualties do I stop being a knight of justice? Isn't that the question those knights must ask themselves? If there's no-one left, and I remain as the only just one,

    Then I'm God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Napoleon III, Des Idees Napoleoniennes
    Governments have been established to aid society to overcome the obstacles which impede its march. Their forms have been varied according to the problems they have been called to cure, and according to character of the people they have ruled over. Their task never has been, and never will be easy, because the two contrary elements, of which our existence and the nature of society is composed, demand the employment of different means. In view of our divine essence, we need only liberty and work; in view of our mortal nature, we need for our direction a guide and a support. A government is not then, as a distinguished economist has said, a necessary ulcer; it is rather the beneficent motive power of all social organisation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang Held
    I walked into those baracks [of Buchenwald concentrationcamp], in which there were people on the three-layered bunkbeds. But only their eyes were alive. Emaciated, skinny figures, nothing more but skin and bones. One thinks that they are dead, because they did not move. Only the eyes. I started to cry. And then one of the prisoners came, stood by me for a while, put a hand on my shoulder and said to me, something that I will never forget: ''Tränen sind denn nicht genug, mein Junge,
    Tränen sind denn nicht genug.''

    Jajem ssoref is m'n korew
    E goochem mit e wenk, e nar mit e shtomp
    Wer niks is, hot kawsones

  13. #113
    Phalanx300's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: For shame. Paris liberation made 'whites only'

    Indeed I am.
    Which I just said... Gotta look out for that fist .

    German concentration camps put the inmates to work, malnourished and diseased them on purpose, whereas the British only did the latter by incompetence.
    Yes, but it was the reason the Boers surrended, would you continue to fight when your wife and children are being starved in concentration camps? Its plain chantage(or however its called in English).

    Around 28.000 Boers died, along with 14.000 blacks.
    I was talking about how much Boeren women and children were probably captive.

  14. #114

    Default Re: For shame. Paris liberation made 'whites only'

    Quote Originally Posted by Phalanx300 View Post
    It does not equal it, yet it did happen. In both things were they put in concentration camps, the very comparison is wrong yet it is there..
    Well, yeah, they were placed in concentration camps but that's about as far as the comparion goes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phalanx300 View Post
    I think its at least 160.000 people.
    Not certain about the numbers, but sure, 160,000 sounds reasonable as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phalanx300 View Post
    Don't really have a source by hand.

    To me I see no point in surrendering if its clear that your familly will be good taken care of. Yet if they are starving them or treating them with death now thats a reason to surrender. Why surrender if nothing would happen to your familly otherwise?
    If you find one, I'd sure like to see it.

    To my knowledge Kitchener wanted to force a situation where the guerillas would either come out and "fight like gentlemen" or simply surrender because their supply situation, hiding places etc was wrecked. Sort of like emptying a lake in order to make it easier to catch some fish. He was already a controversial character even in a generally racist time like that in Great Britain, The White Man's Burden and all that. Not written by him of course, but he certainly subscribed to it's ideas.

    Under the stern but loving patronage of Nihil.

  15. #115
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    Default Re: For shame. Paris liberation made 'whites only'

    Quote Originally Posted by Lysimachos11 View Post
    I don't see any shame, it's logical that a proud nation such as France wishes Paris to be liberated by Frenchmen and not colonials. There is nothing racist about that.

    German soldiers have always been demonised while basically fighting for the same goals as their Allied counterparts (conscription, comradeship, protection of their native country), so why should it be a big deal that the Senegalese dont get any positive credit?
    The French have always had a concept of French by spilt blood. Thus the characterisation of the 66% of the French Army who were not white as ''not Frenchmen'' is rather weak.

  16. #116

    Default Re: For shame. Paris liberation made 'whites only'

    Quote Originally Posted by Visna View Post
    Absolutely.
    You know what this is?

    ...
    a digitalization of a black and white photo?

    The problem is how much leeway does a soldier in a time of war under a totalitarian dictatorship have to question orders? Does that make those who commited such crimes weak cowards? Sure. But, don't think those guys were much different from the average Joe from the streets. Most of humanity is made of cowards who will easily bend to pressure in order to avoid trouble and I would not take myself out of this bunch either. Everyone has a price to do something he wouldn't and if life is in the mix it is usually a bargain

    One doesn't see much resistance in similar dictatorships around the globe either.

    The only point is however that the entirety of the Wehrmacht and SS was made up of millions of people. It's difficult to ascertain which one's were immorale pigs by nature and which failed under pressure and which stayed clean. Everyone who did such crimes was guilty but it's not exactly that a soldier at the front lines in those times can expect anything less but a bullet by a friend instead a foe for disobeying orders.
    "Sebaceans once had a god called Djancaz-Bru. Six worlds prayed to her. They built her temples, conquered planets. And yet one day she rose up and destroyed all six worlds. And when the last warrior was dying, he said, 'We gave you everything, why did you destroy us?' And she looked down upon him and she whispered, 'Because I can.' "
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  17. #117
    Lysimachos11's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: For shame. Paris liberation made 'whites only'

    Quote Originally Posted by Visna View Post
    Absolutely.
    You know what this is?



    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    That's a stand up fine individual defending his native country and fighting for comradeship.
    That's not an average soldier, but someone from an SS-einsatzgruppe, less than 1% of German forces fighting in the war. If you read accounts by regular German soldiers you know they were none different from Western Allied soldiers. Most were simply trying to stay alive to come back to their families, like most soldiers in modern wars have done. Why should you suddenly expect differently just because they lived in a national socialist state?
    Quote Originally Posted by Seneca
    "By the efforts of other men we are led to contemplate things most lovely that have been unearthed from darkness and brought into light; no age has been denied to us, we are granted admission to all, and if we wish by greatness of mind to pass beyond the narrow confines of human weakness, there is a great tract of time for us to wander through."

  18. #118

    Default Re: For shame. Paris liberation made 'whites only'

    Quote Originally Posted by Phalanx300 View Post
    Yes, but it was the reason the Boers surrended, would you continue to fight when your wife and children are being starved in concentration camps? Its plain chantage(or however its called in English).
    Euh yeah, that was the point. Like I said.


    I was talking about how much Boeren women and children were probably captive.
    Which was extremely huge, your estimate is nearly the size of the entire Boer population. Around 50.000-70.000 Boer men joined the fight out of a population of around 160.000, leaving around 90.000 noncombatants, the majority of which were imprisoned, which would fit with the 28.000 30% casualty rate.
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.P. Taylor
    Peaceful agreement and government by consent are possible only on the basis of ideas common to all parties; and these ideas must spring from habit and from history. Once reason is introduced, every man, every class, every nation becomes a law unto itself; and the only right which reason understands is the right of the stronger. Reason formulates universal principles and is therefore intolerant: there can be only one rational society, one rational nation, ultimately one rational man. Decisions between rival reasons can be made only by force.





    Quote Originally Posted by H.L Spieghel
    Is het niet hogelijk te verwonderen, en een recht beklaaglijke zaak, Heren, dat alhoewel onze algemene Dietse taal een onvermengde, sierlijke en verstandelijke spraak is, die zich ook zo wijd als enige talen des werelds verspreidt, en die in haar bevang veel rijken, vorstendommen en landen bevat, welke dagelijks zeer veel kloeke en hooggeleerde verstanden uitleveren, dat ze nochtans zo zwakkelijk opgeholpen en zo weinig met geleerdheid verrijkt en versiert wordt, tot een jammerlijk hinder en nadeel des volks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Miel Cools
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen,
    Oud ben maar nog niet verrot.
    Zoals oude bomen zingen,
    Voor Jan Lul of voor hun god.
    Ook een oude boom wil reizen,
    Bij een bries of bij een storm.
    Zelfs al zit zijn kruin vol luizen,
    Zelfs al zit zijn voet vol worm.
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen.

    Cò am Fear am measg ant-sluaigh,
    A mhaireas buan gu bràth?
    Chan eil sinn uileadh ach air chuart,
    Mar dhìthein buaile fàs,
    Bheir siantannan na bliadhna sìos,
    'S nach tog a' ghrian an àird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jörg Friedrich
    When do I stop being a justified warrior? When I've killed a million bad civilians? When I've killed three million bad civilians? According to a warsimulation by the Pentagon in 1953 the entire area of Russia would've been reduced to ruins with 60 million casualties. All bad Russians. 60 million bad guys. By how many million ''bad'' casualties do I stop being a knight of justice? Isn't that the question those knights must ask themselves? If there's no-one left, and I remain as the only just one,

    Then I'm God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Napoleon III, Des Idees Napoleoniennes
    Governments have been established to aid society to overcome the obstacles which impede its march. Their forms have been varied according to the problems they have been called to cure, and according to character of the people they have ruled over. Their task never has been, and never will be easy, because the two contrary elements, of which our existence and the nature of society is composed, demand the employment of different means. In view of our divine essence, we need only liberty and work; in view of our mortal nature, we need for our direction a guide and a support. A government is not then, as a distinguished economist has said, a necessary ulcer; it is rather the beneficent motive power of all social organisation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang Held
    I walked into those baracks [of Buchenwald concentrationcamp], in which there were people on the three-layered bunkbeds. But only their eyes were alive. Emaciated, skinny figures, nothing more but skin and bones. One thinks that they are dead, because they did not move. Only the eyes. I started to cry. And then one of the prisoners came, stood by me for a while, put a hand on my shoulder and said to me, something that I will never forget: ''Tränen sind denn nicht genug, mein Junge,
    Tränen sind denn nicht genug.''

    Jajem ssoref is m'n korew
    E goochem mit e wenk, e nar mit e shtomp
    Wer niks is, hot kawsones

  19. #119
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    Default Re: For shame. Paris liberation made 'whites only'

    Quote Originally Posted by Visna View Post
    Absolutely.
    You know what this is?


    low quality crop of original one:

    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_9LoaUU4w5U...w/8rYW-mH5mls/

    There are different versions of the photo and its authenticity has been questioned but apparently original was German photo which was contained in a letter sent home by a German soldier who was on the Eastern Front and intercepted in 1942 by the Polish Home Army, which monitored mail from the east that passed through the post office in Warsaw. Question of course is why would censors allow a soldier to send home an incriminating photo of an atrocity?

    Sorry for off topic post

  20. #120

    Default Re: For shame. Paris liberation made 'whites only'

    Quote Originally Posted by Яome kb8 View Post
    The French have always had a concept of French by spilt blood. Thus the characterisation of the 66% of the French Army who were not white as ''not Frenchmen'' is rather weak.

    Yes and no.

    The French conception of nationality as defined in the late 19th century mainly defines nationality by the will of the people to be part of the nation. Contrary to Germany, whe have no blood right, rather soil right, meaning that if you are born on French soil, French nationality is automatically granted should you ask it (with conditions of residence).
    Basically, we believe that belonging to the French nation is not conditionned by language, religion or ethnicity, but only by your wish to be part of it. That's why you cannot speak of "ethnic French" (a notion that seems to be very popular in these parts).

    Of course, it followed a political agenda: it permitted to consider Alsace part of France depsite their language being Germanic, and allowed immigrants to reinforce our troops after the 1870 defeat.

    But on the whole, it is a good thing.

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