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Thread: Vestigia Vetustatis Helpful hints for beginners

  1. #21
    Farnan's Avatar Saviors of the Japanese
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    Default Re: VV helpful hints for beginners

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Here is a question - rather than advice: Since necroposting is discouraged after what period of time is a new thread that replicates an old one viewed as OK? I mean take the current Atomic bomb thread. In 6 months maybe new documents might have been released, or a new book written, new people join and old fall away?

    If you have been here for a couple of years your first thought might be to roll your eyes but someone who wants to offer an opinion could well feel trapped - don't resurrect an old thread or get flack for starting a debate already done one twice or more in the memory of long standing members
    Generally 6 months will get the thread closed and last posts deleted. Don't worry about starting a new thread after a 6 month break.

    There are some exceptions which I judge case by case, mostly dealing with non-controversial topics. Main reason necro posting is not allowed is that people have a hard time defending a position stated 3 years ago, or even 6 months.
    “The nation that will insist upon drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking by cowards.”

    —Sir William Francis Butler

  2. #22
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    Default Re: VV helpful hints for beginners

    Antea, you have a stickied thread -- thus it means you shouldn't abuse it. I object to a whole host of things you listed as supposedly 'off limits', e.g.:

    1.The Roman Empire fell because the Late Roman Army was weak/"barbarised"/didn't wear segmentata and fight with the gladius (cos they rock and are cool and stuff!)
    2. The Roman Empire fell because of Christianity/"corruption and moral decline"/lead pipes/anything other than economics and civil wars.
    3. Christianity caused the Dark Ages by crushing reason and burning all books and scientists.
    4. People in the Middle Ages didn't wash regularly.
    5. Period X was "bad"/ Period Y was "good".
    6. The Crusades were mainly motivated by greed and politics rather than religion.
    7. The Crusaders were idiots who generally got spanked by the Muslims in battle.
    8. Medieval armies were made up mainly of peasant levies, were led by knights with no sense of group tactics and had no discipline, drills, command structure or co-ordination.
    Says who these are not worthy of discussion? Now obviously people will have differing opinions on these things, but that's what VV is there for: to get them discussed. For instance Thiu would shove words into your mouth to be 'hush hush' about discussing Late Roman barbarization, and yet I've consistently demolished his thesis in two consecutive threads, and have shown that from 25% to half of the army was barbarized, as claimed by the leading scholars. Now obviously I would say that I'm right, but I'm not going to say that you should shove my opinion down everybody's throat. In fact maybe he'll come up with evidence and one day prove me wrong. That's what these things exist for: to be discussed, and debated on both sides. All this is the reason why a whole host of your 'forbidden' topics are out of line, and should be taken out, excepting a few of the simple and obvious rules such as that a person shouldn't claim something merely because 'his teacher told them so'.
    Last edited by SigniferOne; April 02, 2009 at 09:50 PM.


    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty,
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    the animating contest for freedom, go
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    and may posterity forget that ye were
    our countrymen."
    -Samuel Adams

  3. #23
    antaeus's Avatar neon
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    Default Re: VV helpful hints for beginners

    Quote Originally Posted by SigniferOne View Post
    Antea, you have a stickied thread -- thus it means you shouldn't abuse it. I object to a whole host of things you listed as supposedly 'off limits', e.g.:



    Says who these are not worthy of discussion? Now obviously people will have differing opinions on these things, but that's what VV is there for: to get them discussed. For instance Thiu would shove words into your mouth to be 'hush hush' about discussing Late Roman barbarization, and yet I've consistently demolished his thesis in two consecutive threads, and have shown that from 25% to half of the army was barbarized, as claimed by the leading scholars. Now obviously I would say that I'm right, but I'm not going to say that you should shove my opinion down everybody's throat. In fact maybe he'll come up with evidence and one day prove me wrong. That's what these things exist for: to be discussed, and debated on both sides. All this is the reason why a whole host of your 'forbidden' topics are out of line, and should be taken out, excepting a few of the simple and obvious rules such as that a person shouldn't claim something merely because 'his teacher told them so'.
    i dont simply want this to be a "ThiudareiksGunthigg's rules for posting in the vv" page... but he's the only person who has made any major contribution so far. it's an evolving list and contributions were asked for. i'm updating it as each regular poster in the vv contributes something. so before you go off on a tangent of negativity...

    your help would be appreciated. if there are particular points which you strongly disapprove of, it would be great if you can suggest alternatives or additions.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

  4. #24
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    Default Re: VV helpful hints for beginners

    But I really don't think that you need specialized historical advice in order to tell the users what's appropriate and what's not. The rules should be as simple and as non-technical as possible. "Don't take people on their word". "Ask for evidence and provide your own". "Learn to understand, and try to avoid, the common logical fallacies known as the 'non sequitur' and 'ad hominem'". It really should not be advice such as "Do not bring up topic X, why I'm not sure but somebody expert in it told me so". That said expert can go where the sun don't shine: VV is a place for discussions, and as long as people don't make simple logical mistakes, anything should be open for a debate and challenge. Also, don't you know that Thiu is biased? He might say the same about me. It really doesn't behoove you to take narrow and technical advice from such sources, which you cannot double-check yourself.


    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty,
    the tranquility of servitude greater than
    the animating contest for freedom, go
    home from us in peace. We seek not
    your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch
    down and lick the hand that feeds you,
    and may posterity forget that ye were
    our countrymen."
    -Samuel Adams

  5. #25
    ThiudareiksGunthigg's Avatar Tasmanian Devil
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    Default Re: VV helpful hints for beginners

    Oh for Christ's sake ...

    Quote Originally Posted by SigniferOne View Post
    Antea, you have a stickied thread -- thus it means you shouldn't abuse it. I object to a whole host of things you listed as supposedly 'off limits'
    Before this thread got stickied, conon394 made a light-hearted comment about "topics that inspire TG's wrath". I responded in kind with a list of some of those comments. Then the thread got stickied and Atterdag said:

    "Stickied. Any further posts should be about further tips "

    The light-hearted list was nothing to do with the original post or the aim of the original post, it was simply some banter. And it sure as hell was never presented as a list of topics which are 'off limits', as anyone with even a remedial grasp of English can see if they simply bothered to read the thread. So (i) learn to fricken read and (ii) obey the Mod. There's a good chap.

    Further banter, responses to my light-hearted list or anything which isn't, as atterdag requested, relevant to actual tips for beginners should now go elsewhere. Is that so hard?

  6. #26
    antaeus's Avatar neon
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    Default Re: VV helpful hints for beginners

    Quote Originally Posted by SigniferOne View Post
    But I really don't think that you need specialized historical advice in order to tell the users what's appropriate and what's not. The rules should be as simple and as non-technical as possible. "Don't take people on their word". "Ask for evidence and provide your own". "Learn to understand, and try to avoid, the common logical fallacies known as the 'non sequitur' and 'ad hominem'". It really should not be advice such as "Do not bring up topic X, why I'm not sure but somebody expert in it told me so". That said expert can go where the sun don't shine: VV is a place for discussions, and as long as people don't make simple logical mistakes, anything should be open for a debate and challenge. Also, don't you know that Thiu is biased? He might say the same about me. It really doesn't behoove you to take narrow and technical advice from such sources, which you cannot double-check yourself.

    i'll be continuing to edit the list, and will probably cull it down somewhat... but at this stage i am still trying to collect as many pointers as possible so i dont miss anything. i will definitely take these points into account as i edit further. TG's list of wrath incurring topics is funny, as i have seen them all... but its also relevant. i'll probably condense them down to a few more definite guides.. either way, they were topics to avoid "without proper research" rather than topics to avoid at all...

    the idea is to give people a fairly thorough guide... the intention is not to limit discussion in any way, but to allow people to avoid common mistakes... it is not a rulebook, its a guide. it is not policed and there is no reason why you have to follow it.
    Last edited by antea; April 02, 2009 at 10:44 PM.
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  7. #27
    Bokks's Avatar Thinking outside Myself
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    Default Re: VV helpful hints for beginners

    I just wanted to squeeze in a follow-up of the suggestion that Romano-Dracis had made to use Google Books.

    The good thing about google books is that it shows the full text of any book they can get their hands on... and pictures of the actual yellowed pages for every case that is possible.

    The bad thing is that due to the protests of publishers for the fact that people will never buy books again if they can get their images for free from google books, the only books that google will thus post are books that the copyright has expired on.

    That means that you'll only find books that have been in publication for 99 years. (I think technically 99 years and three days, but who's counting?) so don't expect to see a range of modern books for you to choose from.

    Just a friendly warning on what you can expect. Beyond that a fantastic source for whatever you're looking for, especially the antiquated tomes that you wouldn't be able to acquire if you tried selling your organs and arms for.
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  8. #28
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    Default Re: VV helpful hints for beginners

    Quote Originally Posted by antea View Post
    list of wrath incurring topics is funny, as i have seen them all... but its also relevant.

    the idea is to give people a fairly thorough guide...
    Still -- you risk giving off the impression that some topics are not okay... and there are dire things down that road, surely your sensibilities rebel against any such implication.


    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty,
    the tranquility of servitude greater than
    the animating contest for freedom, go
    home from us in peace. We seek not
    your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch
    down and lick the hand that feeds you,
    and may posterity forget that ye were
    our countrymen."
    -Samuel Adams

  9. #29
    antaeus's Avatar neon
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    Default Re: VV helpful hints for beginners

    Quote Originally Posted by SigniferOne View Post
    Still -- you risk giving off the impression that some topics are not okay... and there are dire things down that road, surely your sensibilities rebel against any such implication.
    oh i'm the first person to go against what i'm told is the right way of doing things. but if you're going to play devils advocate, you should do it from a well referenced position.. which is why i stated above the list that it should be "avoided without proper research" rather than not discussed at all.

    as i said though, i'll go through there and cull it down a bit when i edit it next (prolly tomorrow when i'm not at work), and i'll stress that its not a list of forbidden topics, but rather a list of well discussed 'pop' history topics which should be approached with care. i'll try to remove any impression that they are forbidden.

    i also want to add a bit on sources mentioned above eg: google books... i dont want to go too far down that road though as there's already threads stickied on it.

    there's also a lot of work to be done on my hasty grammar...

    and i'd like people to keep giving me other pointers they'd like to see!
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  10. #30
    Bokks's Avatar Thinking outside Myself
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    Default Re: VV helpful hints for beginners

    It might be a good idea to do something that presents the overall "credibility" of possible sources in a descending fashion, putting anything generally seen as a stellar source first and then working down to somewhat legitimate but not so bulletproff sources by the end.

    That is a Herculean task, but it would prove benefitial if this is going to sustain a long-lasting source for readers of the VV.

    Throwing in a few warnings about sources too (wikipedia, google books) might also be a good idea if people are going to use this as a one-stop shopping for good tips and what is/is not a good source.
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  11. #31
    ray243's Avatar Equites
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    Default Re: VV helpful hints for beginners

    We also need to point out to people that primary sources from authors living centuries ago should be treated with skepticism. Hell, even renowned authors in the past and their view should be treated with skepticism.

    Reason? Just because their views are accepted in the past does not mean their source and depiction of history is accurate. The history community always send out people to find more facts and do more research, and published new findings and ideas based on new information available.

    For example, saying Gibbon said so in his book and he is a renowned historian does not mean what Gibbon said is true. Any historians has its flaws, and in many cases, wrong judgment can be made due to the lack of proper information available.

    We also need to distinguish the difference between the opinion of a historian and the factual information we got from historians. For example, saying that the Western Roman empire fell in the 5th century is a fact, saying the Roman empire fell because of my view that they stop wearing the Lorica Segementata is an opinion.


    Also, we ought to have some rules in regards to vs. threads. Most of the time, no real historical discussion is made in a vs thread, beyond people on each side trying to drown the voice of others until they get annoyed and leave the debate. Hell, the same applies to who is the best kind of threads.

    Those threads in my opinion, is pretty childish.

  12. #32
    antaeus's Avatar neon
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    Default Re: VV helpful hints for beginners

    thats a good point re: the age of the source, but then the same applies in reverse, just because it's old, doesn't mean it's wrong. i'll see what i can throw in. i'm avoiding the "vs" and "best" threads atm - i really cant stand them, but a lot of other people seem to enjoy them.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

  13. #33
    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: VV helpful hints for beginners

    A question: how do guidelines on Ethos posts fit in here? The thread started very well, then suddenly became a sort of political agenda, you see.

    SigniferOne is fully correct on this instance.

  14. #34
    ThiudareiksGunthigg's Avatar Tasmanian Devil
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    Default Re: VV helpful hints for beginners

    Quote Originally Posted by Ummon View Post
    A question: how do guidelines on Ethos posts fit in here? The thread started very well, then suddenly became a sort of political agenda, you see.

    SigniferOne is fully correct on this instance.
    I'm falling off my chair in amazement even as I type this, but I agree with Ummon and Siggy. (Now there's a sentence you'll probably never see in one of my posts again!) My list of stupid post topics was meant as a joke and, as stupid as those post topics are, they really shouldn't be included in the guide.

  15. #35
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    Default Re: VV helpful hints for beginners

    I would rather state that your list of stupid post topics includes topics which are not stupid at all, on religion, and as these do not belong in the VV, such points should not be on the list.

    Forbid pyramids-were-made-by-aliens all they way through these forums with my full agreement, but please avoid forbidding philosophical discussion on topics you do not agree with, thanks.

  16. #36
    antaeus's Avatar neon
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    Default Re: VV helpful hints for beginners

    i fealt that despite the list being partially a joke, it was actually very relevant... i suggest forbidding conversation on it, i suggested that those topics are better done with a little research as they tend to be the ones where we get a lot of incorrect "pop" history coming up over and over.

    i'll quote my reply to sigone up above..

    "i'll go through there and cull it down a bit when i edit it next (prolly tomorrow when i'm not at work), and i'll stress that its not a list of forbidden topics, but rather a list of well discussed 'pop' history topics which should be approached with care. i'll try to remove any impression that they are forbidden.

    i also want to add a bit on sources mentioned above eg: google books... i dont want to go too far down that road though as there's already threads stickied on it."
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

  17. #37
    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: VV helpful hints for beginners

    If you want to guerantee a high standard in VV, forbidding some things is not wrong at all. Peer-reviewed literature and limiting wikipedia for references only is very proper infact.

    Too bad TG felt the need to include his opinions on unrelated subjects in the list of necessary tools for discussion. They are often inaccurate and similar to jokes, of course, but not in the way he intends it, I suspect.

    For example:

    And on religion ...

    6. Agnostics are people who aren't sure, are 50/50 or who are still waiting for enough evidence.

    7. Atheism is a choice. As such, it's also a faith.

    8. Atheism is a religion because it fits this figurative dictionary definition of "religion", so there.

    9. Atheism leads to nihilism.

    10. Without God you can't be moral.
    And sad misrepresentations:

    16. Small devout children in superstitious peasant communities who claim to have seen the Virgin Mary are credible witnesses and should be taken very seriously.

    17. Despite all the evidence, including carbon-dating by three top notch laboratories, pointing to it being a Medieval fake, the Shroud of Turin is genuine and is proof Jesus rose from the dead.
    Small devout children are thousands of witnesses and the shroud has been burned, thus making carbon dating imprecise. It also has striking correspondences with Oviedo's veil.
    Last edited by Ummon; April 03, 2009 at 04:48 PM.

  18. #38
    ThiudareiksGunthigg's Avatar Tasmanian Devil
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    Default Re: VV helpful hints for beginners

    Quote Originally Posted by Ummon View Post
    Forbid pyramids-were-made-by-aliens all they way through these forums with my full agreement, but please avoid forbidding philosophical discussion on topics you do not agree with, thanks.
    Can' t you read? How many more times do I have to explain to people with low reading comprehension that my list was a list of topics which I consider stupid and which I'm jokingly saying will invoke my wrath as part of the joke I was having with Atterdag . It's NOT a list of things that I'm forbidding. Hey, bring on the discussions of those stupid positions by all means.
    Too bad TG felt the need to include his opinions on unrelated subjects in the list of necessary tools for discussion.
    I DIDN"T. What the hell is wrong with you? Learn to read.

    Small devout children are thousands of witnesses
    Thousands of witnesses saw the Virgin? Really? Not even the credulous kooks claim that. They saw the "miracle of the Sun", which anyone with half a brain cell can see is no "miracle" at all (hint - try fasting and then staring at the sun for a while, see what happens).

    and the shrous has been burned, thus making carbon dating imprecise.
    Garbage - archaeologists C14 date burnt material all the time. The samples were specifically taken from undamaged sections of the cloth and the three labs in question took the potential for a small amount of carbon contamination from the scorching into account when analysing their results. The three best C14 labs on the planet tend to do things like that you see Ummon.

    But hey, start a thread claiming that the Shroud might be genuine by all means. I'll enjoy kicking the living crap out of your credulousness again and picking up the rep points while I do it. You've added more of those little crowns under my name than anyone else here.

    Antea - can you please take my joke list out of your guide so these fatuous/vindictive/butt-hurt posts can stop and we can get this thread back on track? Thanks.

  19. #39
    antaeus's Avatar neon
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    Default Re: VV helpful hints for beginners

    i'm doing it now..

    i kind of like the controversy it has caused though.
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  20. #40
    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: VV helpful hints for beginners

    Shroud:

    http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/benfordmarino.pdf (peer-reviewed)

    http://www.shroud.it/ARTICLES.HTM (bibliography)

    As to the supposed effects of looking at the sun while fasting, I leave it to your imagination what is my reaction.

    It is good to see the inadequate parts removed, though.

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