Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Ahenobarbus/Celsus

[Pontifex Maximus]

A man entered the Senate house. His hair was gray and his face aged and ragged looking. He walked with a slight limp, and carried a cane. Mind, not a walking stick, but a cane, with silver bands around the grip. Crassus was nowhere to be seen, but there were a few familiar faces including that of Senator Lepidus. Caius Scipio nodded in Lepidus' direction. Clarus was also seated. Most of the others were new faces, but some bore resemblances to the ghosts of the past, long since slewn in battle or thrown off the rock. It had been four years since Sicinius had walked in these halls. His sudden disappearance after his turbulent Consular term had been unexpected, but at the same time not entirely surprising.

Speaking no words, the man walked to a vacant seat and listened to the debate.

[Ozy]

Senator Popillus, your law does not fix this problem at all, not to mention it can be easily assumed that a very similar thing would happen to any senator who broke a law. First of all, the problem, this "grey area", falls in the powers granted to the Proconsul, not really in the consecuences of breaking a veto. If anything, the following law could be proposed, by someone who supports your position:

I) A Proconsul will not have right to take any enemy territory, region or city without direct authorization from the Senate of Rome.

With this law, you can make sure that a region cannot be taken over by a Proconsul unless a motion is passed to allow him to do so, one a tribune could veto.

On the other hand, a different law, one which supports the initiative Proconsul Crassus took, should read something similar to:

I) A Proconsul will have right to take any enemy territory which has a border with his Provinces without direct authorization from the Senate of Rome, as long as it is proven beyond reasonable doubt that such actions were imperative.

II) If a Proconsul is to take enemy cities or territories, he must inform the senate of such actions before he performs them, to let the senate have a word on it's position on the matter.

Naturally, if a Proconsul's actions are considered questionable, a non-confidence vote may be called, or he may be called to trial once his term is over. This adds nothing to our current system of Justice, which is why I did not add it in the law.

As for which motion I would support, or if I endorse or condemn Crassus actions, I cannot yet find a position I can fully support.

[Pontifex Maximus]

Caius stands, his voice coarse and raspy he manages,

It seems to me the debate is whether or not to include elements of flexibility in the laws or provide strict guidelines for proconsular activity. to be gray or black and white. Either way it goes, the sanctity of a proconsul's role needs to be guaranteed by a general difference by the senate to the proconsul as the acting authority of the region. When a proconsul is elected, the senate is in fact entrusting the man to represent their authority as well as the Republic's in a foreign region under our rule. There fore a compromise is to be called for.

Any Proconsular declaration of hostilities should be ratified by a 3/5 majority of this house, excepting cases of self defense in which the proconsul is to act on his imperium and defend the region accordingly.

His voice trails off

In any case, I find it doubtful that faithful Crassus would have acted against the better interests of the Republic.

[Xavier Dragnesi]

Ahenobarbus watched the arrival and opening speech of Scipio with interest. And old friend was back...

I agree with the views of Scipio. The care and management of a province is entrusted to the Proconsul when he is elected into office. If he has to appeal to the Senate for nearly every move he makes, then his ability to carry out his duty if greatly limited. Therefore, I would like to see what you, senators, think of this addition to be made to the Constitution, in regards to the powers of the Proconsul.

I. The Proconsul is elected once every term in order to take control and manage a province of the Republic

II. The Proconsul is given Imperium upon taking up office. This Imperium allows him to levy troops and build infrastructure as he sees fit, and to govern the people in such a way so that they are kept complacent.

III. The Proconsul is not allowed to begin a war or begin hostilities with an opposing nation unless the Senate allows it. However, he is allowed to fight a defensive war against an already declared enemy.

IV. In the event of being engaged in battle, and having defeated the enemy, the Proconsul is allowed to march into the territory of the origin of the army he faced and capture the main city in the territory, to ensure no further arrival of reinforcements or troops. However, he is to proceed no further unless attacked once more, or ordered by the Senate.

V. If any action of the Proconsul is deemed unsatisfactory or against the Senate's wishes, he can be stripped of his rank by a 2/3s majority vote.

[Galerius Priscus]

Narses jumped up, shocked by the words of his colleague.

Popilius, you speak of Senator Crassus as a man with such lust for power, but listen to your motion!
With such power, you could easily bring the Senate to his knees! If someone is in your way, you could just veto his every move, and if he does something a little out of order you would put him to trial?
The Senate does little things without deating, thus very little matters go through as it is, and you would almost put it to a halt with this!

I am a Tribune as well, but I do not feel such greed and lust for might! This is not in the best interests of the People, but only for yourself!
Is a Tribune's task not to represent the People of Rome in the Senate?

If you bring forth that motion, I feel obliged to veto it...

He calmed down from his tirade, and settled his toga.

I agree with the motion set forth by our good Consul Ahenobarbus, and I welcome back Senator Scipio, as I notice that he returned.

And on another matter, it is almost the end of the political term, and we had no word from the Quaestor at all! No financial reports, no advises on building plans, nothing!

It is too late now, but I strongly advise to keep an eye out on such matters, and we must try to prevent Senators sitting idle, especially when they have an important post, such as Quaestor!

[Valerius Tiberius]

My colleague brings good arguments against my motion, though other Senators do not. I meant that a non-confidence vote was started automaticly if he broke a Veto, so he can still be pardonned. I did not mean that he would be immediatel stripped from rank.... a small communication issue so it seems.

I also support the motion of Ahenobarbus, though I doubt at the IVth point.
I agree that a Pro-Consul is allowed to fight a defensive war, in his own province (include that please), but I say he must have the approval of the Senate to take a city.



Also, as one of these smart Senators had already pointed out, cities taken by the Pro-Consul do not become part of his province, or else he would have new border cities again and again, allowing him to take whatever he wants. Thanks to a Senator for this, sorry I do not remember who it was...



OOC: guys, you're arguments are bollocks (such a great word ^^) OOC wise.... I mean, we haven't had a Pro-Consulate in Imperator 2, but you have had one in previous games. So all this stuff about "a grey area" is bollocks.

[Junius]

Senators, I wish to address you on the upcoming election. As some of you know, I am standing again for Praetor. I do nit think that you would be so careless as to vote for a man when you did not know what his aims will be. That is why I talk to you all today.

The events of this past year have shown the failings of our constitution. It is not unpatriotic to point out where we do not live up to our potential, as long as we do our upmost to recitify it. The powers of the Proconsul and Tribune, to an extent, are, for the most part, badly ill defined. I will, if you give me the mandate by electing me to the position of Praetor. It is precisely because this position grants responsibilty over our laws. I have preformed this task before, codifying many of the ambiguous laws of our ancestors. I think with a full and proper codifying of our laws we will allow our magistrates to preform to the best of their abilities without having to worry about over stepping their mandate, or without having to report back to the Senate about every little thing.

That is why I feel I would be the best candidate for the office. I have something I want to achieve, which is much more than these candidates who just want to race up the Cursus so they can achieve power. I hope I can earn your support Senators.

[Snowball]

It is the people who vote for magistrates...not the senate.

[Junius]

OoC: Senators hold the real power when it comes to Praetors and Consuls.

[Valerius Tiberius]

Praetor Geganius, I will be running for Praetor with the same intentions.
It would be an honour if we could do it together, a Plebeian and a Patrician together. For I also think that the powers are ill defined, and indeed especially those of the Tribune and the Pro-Consul.
I hope to see you next to me, as colleagues, as Praetors.

[Elendil of Númenor]

"Senators!"

Celsus was back, reluctantly leaving the Sardinian Legion at Caralis.

"I have returned - the army is of course threatened by the Olbians day by day, what's more, it might be even possible that Caralis is already in Olbian hands, since I left! Thanks to you, Senate of Rome! Now, I'm not accusing anyone, I'm just pointing out a major problem in these halls! Inability to debate about what must be decided immediately! I have read the discussions of the Senate in the last months and all I got was a pointless debate about a foolish topic such as whether Crassus's attack on Messana was the right thing to do or not! The debate went on for almost half a year with no conclusion! While Romans, Romans I repeat, stood on watch every day, fearing every new dawn and the possible attack of the Olbian army! I sent countless letters to you, Senate of Rome, asking what should I do, am I allowed to whipe out the Olbian threat once and for all? But what do I get?! Nothing! Old men ranting on about a topic that doesn't require too much concentration to do so."

Celsus paced around the House, stoping here and there, finally halting at the curule chair and facing the Senate.

"Thus I propose the following law:

Lex Iulia (or whatever, sadly I don't speak Latin)

I. The Senate may discuss one topic, motion, law, etc. for a set amount of time, notably 45 days (36 hours real time). Note: This period can be shorter, if the motion finds enough support, but by no means longer.

II. When that amount of time expires the topic, motion, law, etc. may be put to vote if at least 2/3s of the Senators support it. Less than that amount of support after 45 days of debate shall be considered as a failiure, and the Senate shall be urged to discuss new topics.

III. If any Senator refuses to follow the line of debate or does not willingly work together with the Senate must face a form of retribution such as a Nota Censura.

IV. Topics, motions, laws, etc. with no opposition in the period of 45 days are automatically passed.

V. Topics, motions, laws, etc. shall be sorted into five groups: Military, Economy, Civil, Senatorial, Construction.
- Military: all topics, motions, laws, etc. regarding warfare; recruitment, campaigns, imperium, disbandment, etc.
- Economy: all topics, motions, laws, etc. regarding economy; treasury, taxes, farming, mining, trade, etc.
- Civil: all topics, motions, laws, etc. regarding the People, citizens of the Republic; public order, laws regarding citizens, citizenship, etc.
- Senatorial: a small group of all topics, motions, laws, etc. regarding the Senate; the way it works, votes of no confindence, etc. This law for instance is Senatorial.
- Construction: all topics, motions, laws, etc. regarding the constrution of buildings in the Republic.

VI. These groups will follow this order of importance: /the most important comes first/ Military, Economy, Construction, Civil, Senatorial.
The order may be changed if there is a very strong need for it according to situation.

For example: if the year starts with an enemy army threatening our borders somewhere and a settlement having too low taxes elsewhere, the enemy army must be debated first, as that belongs to Military, and the taxation to Economy.

VII. Senators who refuse to to follow this line of importance and do not willingly work together with the Senate must face a form of retribution such as a Nota Censura.

-||-

Note: many things mentioned in the law are already found in our constitution but I found it in need of refreshment, thus I speak of them here."

[Junius]

I object. The Senate will deem what is important by discussion, and we cannot have sanctions imposed on us about how long any, important or unimportant, topic can be discussed for. You were given Imperium over the Punic Isles, you did not need a Senatorial decree for your actions. You endanger your men by abandoning them, and yet you seek to censure us.

Your law is frivolous, ill thought out and perhaps even dangerous to the Republic, by not letting the Senate discuss what they deem important to it's safety. Your actions here, your law, is doomed to fail, as it rightly should be, and I call on Senators to vote against it, and a Tribune to veto it, as, as I have said, it would lead to the endangerment of the Republic, and People, of Rome.

[Elendil of Númenor]

OOC: Well yeah, right, maybe I've had imperium, but can't do much wit it if the Senate is deaf and the save is not in my hands.

[Valerius Tiberius]

Praetor Geganius, our Consul Celsus was given Imperium to take over Caralis, but he had to wait for word of us to attack the Olbians.
But I do not support this motion though...


But Consul Celsus, you are right. We have spent to much attention to one thing, and forgot the most important thing and that is you and your men!

Therefore I propose the following motion and excuse me personally to Consul Celsus.

Motion about the rule of Sardinia

I. Consul Celsus shall be given the freedom to take the city of the Olbians immediately if he thinks he has enough men.

II. If not, he will propose an amount of men needed and after approval of the Senate they will be granted.

[Junius]

The Consuls time in command is coming to an end, and as such, your proposed law will have virtually no effect. I propose another law, which makes provisions for the raising of additional troops to augment the Consular army on the Punic Isles, and as such, make it ready for a new commander to take over and finish the job Celsus has started.

[Winter]

Why does the consul not put motions forward? Why is there such chaos?!

I DEMAND my motion be heard, it is of the utmost importance!

Senatus Consultum de Bellum Sicilium

I.The Proconsul shall be pardoned for his preemptive capture of Messana as it was done in regards to self preservation, and shall be granted imperium over the entire isle of Sicily.

II. All property owned by the Kingdom of Syracuse shall hereby be claimed by the Roman Republic, and the Proconsul shall hereby be granted the right to capture any and all cities and towns under its control.

III. The King of Syracuse shall hereby be declared an enemy of the Republic.

IV The Senate shall raise from among the cities of Italia one half legion of Roman troops to reinforce Sicily. These may be taken from among the various garrisons and legion posts or recruited, and should number no less than 2,500 infantry, comprising one Hastati, one Principes, one Triarii, one Velites, and one Funditore maniples.

[Hesus de bodemloze]

Are you making a consul out of a pro consul senator. Who will guard the city against invading carthaginians?

This matter should be taken care of by a consul he should capture the rest of the island not the pro consul.

Also if we just forgive his actions and not sanction him in some way next generations of pro consuls will start wars on there own. This deeply concerns me senators.

[chaplain118]

But the Proconsul has been attacked already. It makes sense to strike there with the proconsul rather than sending a consul forth to do battle.

[Elendil of Númenor]

Very well. Seeing that there is not much opposition to Lepidus's motion I shall put it to vote.

Secondly, if you allow me to quickly attack, it would be possible that I take Olbia and defeat the Olbian army before the new year; it would be logical too - a hard fight it would be and those soldiers would be more happy to fight it with their recent leader leading them then the Consul of next year. Please decide now than, Senators, so I can sail back this week. (today if possible)

[Xavier Dragnesi]

OOC: Lol we both put up Winter's motion.