suggestions for next release of stw thread.

[Amorphos]

suggestions for next release of stw.

feel free to offer up suggestions for the next version of stw, also for uddates to this version and to note any bugs in this release.

thanks

[Spartan198]

First report, I see.

Anywho, I DL'ed Sparta 3 and started up a campaign as Sparta (you must be shocked that I, of all people, would play as the Spartans, right? ). I engaged the Persian Army at Thermopylae and the battle loaded and started up without a hitch. Narrow victory, too (one single unit of Spartiate Hoplites saved it for me).

But after I'd quit that (it was just a trial campaign, to check out the recruitment tiers, map, and such), I tried to start a custom battle between Sparta and Athens on the grassy flatland map, but when I clicked the button to start it, the game CTD'ed without giving me an error message. I ckecked around to see if there were any patches, but didn't find anything.

Now some other things I noticed.

If the game starts at the battle of Thermopylae, then you've got the starting date of the game--380 BC--wrong. I can easily fix that in the descr_strat, but I thought I'd let you know.

Alexandria didn't exist in 480 (or 380, for that matter.)

I can't recruit Spartan Hippeis cavalry in the campaign. Is this intentional or not?

Sciritai ~ I'm pretty sure they fought as skirmishers, not hoplites. But if I'm wrong, please correct me.

[Killerbee]

Do you still have th ebattle at thermopylae ? I thought that one was already removed in one of the closed beta's ?

[Amorphos]

hi spartan 198

hi, see this thread to get your hippeis!

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...14#post4820314


without an error message i don’t know what happened? as the units work in the campaign i presume it is something else. could you try out the same army of sparta VS 1 other unit, to see if it is a spartan unit and vice versa for athens? my pc is broke so i can’t do anything at the moment ~ apart from check coding if i get an error message.

hmm yes the date should be 480 i think, it doesn’t really matter as nothing is tied into it, but sure change it in desc_strat, and i’ll do the same for the first update.

according to my sources skiriti formed the left hand flank, so they must have been highly thought of and a phalanx unit as i see it ~ or otherwise they would break up the line?


theo, there are still two strong persian and spartan armies there. i took the other persian armies away as they just run away from the spartans and attack everyone else to the north.

[Spartan198]

hi spartan 198

hi, see this thread to get your hippeis!

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...14#post4820314

I'm assuming it's the attached EDB file you're referring to?

without an error message i don’t know what happened? as the units work in the campaign i presume it is something else. could you try out the same army of sparta VS 1 other unit, to see if it is a spartan unit and vice versa for athens? my pc is broke so i can’t do anything at the moment ~ apart from check coding if i get an error message.

I reinstalled RTW, then STW, and have yet to encounter it again. I'm thinking a vanilla file or two might have been overwritten when I installed Greek Wars a while back.

according to my sources skiriti formed the left hand flank, so they must have been highly thought of and a phalanx unit as i see it ~ or otherwise they would break up the line?

I remember reading several sources stating they fought as skirmishers.

I'll see what I can find after while. I'm in a bit of a rush (errands) ATM.

[Killerbee]

Oh , you had a mod thatr overwrote your vanilla files ? Then that probably causes the error .. try deleting the RTW folder manually (in your C:/ files) , and then remove it via your configuration stuff ('remove program')

then install it again , and get a copy of your vanilla .. You should install Greek Wars in that copy , and all modfoldered mods in your fresh , vanilla version

[Amorphos]

I’m assuming it’s the attached EDB file you’re referring to?

yes.

I reinstalled RTW, then STW, and have yet to encounter it again. I’m thinking a vanilla file or two might have been overwritten when I installed Greek Wars a while back.

glad to hear it isn’t a problem with stw.

I remember reading several sources stating they fought as skirmishers.

that is how i made them to begin with, then i was told they would use the phalanx, they were very useful as skirmishers ~ on reflection, being mountain men i would think they should be! i’ll make an update with them as i orignally had them so we have the option.

theo

good advice, personally i would remove the game with the uninstaller then the folders, or it uninstaller may not be able to find the files.

[Agisilaos]

According to wikipedia:
In war the Sciritae formed an elite corps of light infantry, a lochos (battalion) of about 600 men, which were used as a complement to the civic army. According to Thucydides (v. 67), they fought on the extreme-left wing in the battle-line, the most threatening position for the hoplite phalanx: "In this battle the left wing was composed of the Sciritae, who in a Lacedaemonian army have always that post to themselves alone". At night, they were placed as sentinels ahead of the army (Xenophon, Constitution of the Spartans, xii. 3) and acted as scouts to open the way for the king, whom they only could precede.
link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sciritae

[Spartan198]

According to wikipedia:
In war the Sciritae formed an elite corps of light infantry, a lochos (battalion) of about 600 men, which were used as a complement to the civic army. According to Thucydides (v. 67), they fought on the extreme-left wing in the battle-line, the most threatening position for the hoplite phalanx: "In this battle the left wing was composed of the Sciritae, who in a Lacedaemonian army have always that post to themselves alone". At night, they were placed as sentinels ahead of the army (Xenophon, Constitution of the Spartans, xii. 3) and acted as scouts to open the way for the king, whom they only could precede.
link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sciritae

I just read that exact paragraph somewhere else, though it doesn't exactly specify whether they were skirmishers or what. But it does seem clear that they acted as some sort of flank guard.

[Agisilaos]

the left wing in a phalanx had to face the best hoplite unit of the enemy since the attack was happening from the right side since they wanted to surround the enemy slowly. the spartans had the right wing cause they were the best attackers in a phalanx and could break the morale of the enemy. it would be silly to have scirites face the best hoplite unit of the enemy as skirmishers

[Amorphos]

thanks for the info agi.

it sounds to me like they were a guard generally and of the flanks, rather than actually forming part of the phalanx battle line. when i had them as flexible spearmen they were very useful in that role.

edit, oh just read your last post.

[Spartan198]

Found this link: http://www.spartan-world.de/spartan_sciritae_text.html

Here's what it says about them (I've bolded most of the references to them fighting as armored skirmisher/ekdromoi-type troops)

The Sciritae or Skiritai were a people subject to Sparta, whose status was equal to that of the Perioeci. They lived in Skiritis, a mountainous region located in northern Laconia on the border with Arcadia, between the Oenus and the Eurotas rivers.

According to the 6th century BC geographologist Stephanus of Byzantium and the 5th century BC grammarian and lexicographer Hesychius of Alexandria, the Sciritae were of Arcadian origin. Their way of life was essentially rural: they mostly lived in villages, of which the biggest were Oion and Caryai. Their territory was inhospitable, but was of strategic importance for Sparta since it controlled the road to Tegea which explains why it rapidly fell in Spartan hands.

In war, the Sciritae formed an elite corps of light troops, a loche ( Lochos Skirites) of about 600 men, which were used as a complement to the main army. According to Thucydides (v. 67), they fought on the extreme-left wing in the battle-line, the most threatening position for the opposing hoplite phalanx: "In this battle the left wing was composed of the Sciritae, who in a Lacedaemonian army have always that post to themselves alone".

At night, they were placed as sentinels ahead of the army and, according to Xenophon in his Constitution of the Spartans, xii. 3 “acted as scouts to open the way for the king, whom they only could precede”.

In the Cyropaedia (IV, 2), Xenophon compares them to the Hyrcanian cavalry, used by the Assyrians as rear-guard.

It is not known when Sciritae were first used in the Spartan army. The earliest mention of them is by Thucydides referring to them in his own time at the battle of Mantinea in 418 BC.

It is also not known how they would have been armed and equipped as information given by Thucydides, Xenophon & Eupolis is patchy and conflicting. However, all the various classical literary and relief sources suggest a natural progression of arms, equipment and utilisation of these specialist troops.

To begin with it appears that Sciritae were always positioned on the left of the Spartan line were they faced the unshielded right flank of the opposing phalanx. It seems very unlikely that Perioeci class troops, fighting as hoplites, would be allocated a position where they could (presumably) overlap an opposing phalanx line and gain a significant advantage, thus robbing the full Spartiatae in the centre of the glory of victory. Missile-armed troops though, were different. They were not considered crucial to the outcome of a battle and were rarely referred to as being part of an army where only the numbers of hoplites (or shields) were counted. Furthermore there are numerous accounts of hoplite battles where depth is sacrificed to match the length of the opposing phalanx line. It would therefore suggest that Sciritae were not armed and equipped as hoplites otherwise their positioning would always have been negated by opposing forces.

This theory is further strengthened by the relief on a 6th century BC pithos found at Sparta, which depicts a foot-soldier, with metal helmet and sword, fighting among the armoured hoplites, but wearing an animal skin instead of breastplate and shield. Furthermore he is seen using a large stone as a missile weapon. Another fragment of an Athenian relief honouring the dead lost in a year in the late 5th or early 4th century BC shows a fallen Athenian hoplite and, behind him, a figure of a light infantryman dressed in a tunic, with pilos helmet and an animal skin wrapped around his left shoulder as both a cloak and shield. His left hand is clasped as if holding a javalin and he has a short sword in his right hand.

Both Thucydides & Xenophon refer to Sciritae as being more mobile or faster-moving than the main Spartan army. Similarly, coming from a mountainous region, living in villages, not towns or cities, their historic and natural way of fighting would have been tribal in nature as individual skirmishers, not hoplites.

Furthermore, Thucydides describing the Spartan army at Mantinae writes “seven lochoi fought exclusive of the Sciritae, of whom there were six hundred………….they were drawn up not all alike, but according to the wishes of individual Lochagoi, though an average of eight deep……………..the Sciritae were not drawn up in the same depth as the rest”.

Again this account by Thucydides, speaking of hoplite lochoi being “exclusive of the Sciritae”, and “ the sciritae were not drawn up in the same depth as the rest” further suggests that the Sciritae were not fighting as hoplites. Xenophon in Hellenica V iv 52 mentions that Sciritae were used to advance in front of the rest of the hoplite army or to harry the enemy’s retreat.

So we can reasonably deduce that Sciritae were used as scouts, skirmishers, foragers, and in battle, as light missile-armed troops to harass the opposing right-flank of a phalanx line.

It must be remembered that Greek hoplites fought in closely packed formations, their aspis koile (“hollow shield”) held on the left arm in front of them half-protecting the man on their left, their dory (thrusting spear) held in their right hand raised above the head. Thus the right side of an individual was exposed, resulting in hoplite armies drifting to the right to gain the protection of the left-side of the shield of the warrior to their right. The file on the extreme right of a phalanx army, having no warrior to their right in whose shield to seek protection, would have been vulnerable to attack from their right. It is because of this that the position of honour given to the best units was on this vulnerable right flank.

Imagine then yourself, in the outside right file, on the right flank of a hoplite force trying to maintain your courage as you face a Spartan phalanx ahead, suddenly assailed by fast-moving missile troops on your unprotected right side. The demoralising effect is obvious.

We can assume that Sciritae fought in this way until sometime around the Peloponnesian War when their use seems to have changed to a more hoplite role. There could be many reasons for this: hoplite man-power shortages within Sparta; faster moving and better armed/equipped troop types (peltests & cavalry) amongst the Athenians and their allies or possible something of a dual role for the Sciritae combining a lightly-armoured hoplite with the flexibility of skirmishers, almost a peltest troop type.

What is reasonable sure though, is their role changed again in the 4th century BC when they reverted to a skirmish role and were often used in conjunction with Spartan cavalry, either riding double with the cavalryman, or holding on to saddle or harness with feet in saddle-loops. In this way missile-armed skirmishers and cavalry could be deployed rapidly and each support the other. Sciritae and cavalry were used in this way at the battle of Tanagra in 377 BC. Phillip of Macedon was later to copy this tactic when he re-organised the Macedonian army in and his son Alexander used the same combined unit to great effect at Gaugamela in 331 BC

Sciritis became independent after the battle of Leuctra in 371 BC. From that point the Spartans had to rely on mercenary peltests to perform the tasks previously done by the Sciritae. The Sciritae themselves remained loyal allies but only accompanied the Spartan army when it engaged in long campaigns.

From what it says here, it would seem they did both at different times.

[Amorphos]

nice quote spartan

most important is how they fought during the time the mod is set in, can anyone deduce that?

for gaming purposes it may be better to have them as skirmishers, but the current model is a spearman. so at best all i can do is take away the phalanx attribute and give them a shorter spear.

[Agisilaos]

according to the text you posted yes indeed. but we should keep in mind that many times the people who were writing about the battles (historians or not) usually did not mention the skirmisher units because they didn't consider them very important. for example when Leonidas fought in thermopylae had with him helots that fought as skirmishers but are not mentioned and honored as they should have been, what i try to say here is that units that were not considered important usually were not mentioned in the description of the battle but in our case scirites were quite famous. that makes me believe that mostly were hoplites that could do more tasks depending in the need of the battle.

[Amorphos]

good point agi, i think we should keep them as they are. maybe reconsider it for future versions.

[Spartan198]

most important is how they fought during the time the mod is set in, can anyone deduce that?

Last bolded quote says they changed to a hoplite role during the Peloponnesian War, so I think it can be safely assumed that they functioned in some type of role similar to Thureophoroi and Thorakitai, as a heavy skirmisher (like Peltastai in EB).

for gaming purposes it may be better to have them as skirmishers, but the current model is a spearman. so at best all i can do is take away the phalanx attribute and give them a shorter spear.

I was thinking about doing that myself. The Spartans lack a good flank guard unit. Javelin skirmishers and peltasts haven't been very dependable in that role for me. And my cavalry is usually too busy cutting into the enemy's rear to guard the flanks.


Okay, new development. I keep trying to engage a small Persian Army in Asia Minor just south of Ancyra, but when it gets to the loading screen, the entire program just shuts down. I don't even get the generic "Rome Total War has stopped working" message. It's happened twice.

[Amorphos]

I was thinking about doing that myself. The Spartans lack a good flank guard unit. Javelin skirmishers and peltasts haven’t been very dependable in that role for me. And my cavalry is usually too busy cutting into the enemy’s rear to guard the flanks.

you could add a swordsman for that purpose too. ...but yeah i ill go for the more flexible spear unit.

Okay, new development. I keep trying to engage a small Persian Army in Asia Minor just south of Ancyra, but when it gets to the loading screen, the entire program just shuts down. I don’t even get the generic “Rome Total War has stopped working” message. It’s happened twice.

twice for the asme army in the same location? can you get a spy to see what is in the army [as far as i know all the units work fine though], or try to draw it to a different location to see if it is a map glitch.

thanks for your feedback

[Spartan198]

twice for the asme army in the same location? can you get a spy to see what is in the army [as far as i know all the units work fine though], or try to draw it to a different location to see if it is a map glitch.

Okay, I'll give it a try.

Edit: Okay, forcing it to a different location didn't help. But before that I besieged and took Chalkis without any issues. And custom battles work without issue as well.

My army composition:
1 Cretan Elite Hoplites
2 Merc Peltasts
4 Spartiate Hoplites
3 Merc Hoplites
2 Cretan Archers
1 Rhodian Slingers
1 Thracian Mercenaries
1 Bastarnae Mercenaries
2 Barbarian Mercenary Warband
2 Barbarian Mercenary Cavalry

Opposing Persian Army:
2 Babylonian Spearmen
3 Babylonian Heavy Spearmen

I also seem to have a Gallic warship sitting on the ground right outside the walls of Athens on the south end of the city.

Edit 2: Update!

Added -show_err to the target line of STW's shortcut, then tried to engage the above Persian Army. It loaded half way, then the program shut down as it did previously. Here's the error given:

Generic Error:

Failed to find texture ".

Also, Carthaginian Composite Bowmen are listed as unlocalized placement text and have the generic grayed-out peasant unit card on the Numidian unit roster screen in custom battle.

Edit 3:

Generic Error:

Failed to find texture 'data/textures/arrow_trail.tga'.

It happened when I started a custom battle between Sparta and Carthage. The archer units present in the armies were one each of Carthage's archer units and Greek archers.
Scratch that. I got the exact same error when playing XGM, so I'm assuming another mod I installed (which is allegedly fully-modfoldered and shall remain unnamed in this post) messed up the vanilla game files.

Strangely, regarding the Carthaginian Composite Bowmen, the unit card for them is now working. But the mini description still lists them as unlocalized placement text.

[yyz13]

Just a few suggestions, none of them important but will just add to the feel of the game. First, caps. Obviously not important, but it makes the mod look better if the capitalization is consistent. Second, I've noticed a lot of the hoplites have an attack of 9. Maybe mix it up a bit? Especially because some of the Athenian Hoplites are as good as some of the better Spartans. Still, great job, can't wait for the update.

[Spartan198]

The capitalization is being worked on in beta testing.