belief in god/history

**MyFriendPeter90** · May 03, 2005, 12:18 AM

First off, lets not have this turn into a nasty argument or anything.

Personally, i am an atheist and history does affect my opinions. I find that as i look at history and how religion has evolved over time it reinforces my non-beleif in a god or gods. Throughout history, humans have looked to gods and religions to explain what they could not understand, due to a serious lack of scientific knowledge. Also, i look at how different people developed different beliefs in different places and time periods, which helps show how humans invented these gods and religions. I also look at how religion has influenced terrible things like the Crusades, which were carried out in the name of god. However, religion has also been responsible for good things and that can make historical events a positive thing for religion and theism. It really depends on how you look at events throughout history, for some they can reinforce religious beliefs and for others make them seem totally implausible. For others, it may have no affect at all. I just find it interesting how history affects this. So, what do you all think?

**Akhilleus** · May 03, 2005, 12:56 AM

my knowledge of history has contributed my disgust for RELIGION. but faith and religion are seperate. my faith, however, is one of an agnostic. i refuse to say that my beliefes are infalliable so long as there remains no proof to back them what so ever.

**Gelatinous Cube** · May 03, 2005, 01:05 AM

The original poster puts it well. There's alot of things in history that show you how religion could very well be the ultimate hoax, made by men to explain things they could not explain, or to control and influence others. This isn't to say Religion is a bad thing--religious organizations do alot of good things for the world these days. That's also not to say it's necesarrily a good thing, either. Alot of bad has come from it as well (such as 90% of the problems in the middle-east). All-in-all, I think the world would be a very different place without it. Not necesarrily better or worse, as humans would find ways to fill the good and bad voids that religion would leave, but different.

Now, my personal belief? Agnostic, I suppose. I haven't seen anything, heard anything, or know of anything that has undeniable proven the existence of a god, or gods--but i've seen alot of things to disprove it! Or, at least, disprove the various scriptures and books that proclaim the existence of the aforementioned varioues religious deities. But, I've never been able to shake the "What if?" feeling. Basically, I'm not dead-set against it. But I'm not convinced, either.

**Akhilleus** · May 03, 2005, 01:10 AM

Originally posted by Gelatinous Cube@May 3 2005, 12:05 AM
The original poster puts it well. There's alot of things in history that show you how religion could very well be the ultimate hoax, made by men to explain things they could not explain, or to control and influence others. This isn't to say Religion is a bad thing--religious organizations do alot of good things for the world these days. That's also not to say it's necesarrily a good thing, either. Alot of bad has come from it as well (such as 90% of the problems in the middle-east). All-in-all, I think the world would be a very different place without it. Not necesarrily better or worse, as humans would find ways to fill the good and bad voids that religion would leave, but different.

Now, my personal belief? Agnostic, I suppose. I haven't seen anything, heard anything, or know of anything that has undeniable proven the existence of a god, or gods--but i've seen alot of things to disprove it! Or, at least, disprove the various scriptures and books that proclaim the existence of the aforementioned varioues religious deities. But, I've never been able to shake the "What if?" feeling. Basically, I'm not dead-set against it. But I'm not convinced, either.

actually, 90% of the problems in the middle east arize from european and american intervention.
when the middle-eastern nations' boundaries were drawn the europeans cared little for what they were doing.

but, uh, yeah; religion creates more problems than solutions.

**Bruticus the Steadfast** · May 03, 2005, 01:20 AM

God is true to me, not because of history, but because of my own faith. ( I hope that is the fact anyway) History can help in my faith, and it can make me question some things (sadly), but if history effects faith..then its not truely faith.

**Kanaric** · May 03, 2005, 01:34 AM

You can believe in god and be disgusted by religions, its called being agnostic and i'm very close to one. Most organized religions are filled with hypocrasy and believe that you can only enter the proper afterlife only if you follow their preacher which i dont agree with. Afterall why should perfectly good people go to hell if they simply are not protestent, catholic, muslim, orthodox, jewish, buddist, etc. I also hate how these people dont follow their entire religion and only follow what suits them at the moment, like turning the other cheak with christians. They tout their religion but dont actually follow their own beliefs.

**Rand Al Thor** · May 03, 2005, 02:12 AM

You can believe in god and be disgusted by religions, its called being agnostic and i'm very close to one.

Errr not quite, Agnostic is a completely neutral stance that god may or may not exist. However you are right, organized religion and belief in god are two separate things.

**Xiaodun** · May 03, 2005, 02:17 AM

I dont belive in Christanity and omnipotence of God because Im a cynic and Im not about to belive the existance of some all powerful creator because a book. My belief is strengthened because the followers of "god" have done a lot of horrible things to themselves and people who follower other "gods".

**ThiudareiksGunthigg** · May 03, 2005, 02:27 AM

Originally posted by Rand Al Thor@May 3 2005, 02:12 AM
Errr not quite, Agnostic is a completely neutral stance that god may or may not exist. However you are right, organized religion and belief in god are two separate things.

No, this is how the word 'agnostic' is often misused. If you look at what Huxley actually meant when he invented the word, it means someone who believes that we can't possibly have knowledge (gnosis) of any God or gods by his/their very nature. So most agnostics are without any belief in God/gods on these grounds and a few (very few) do have a belief in a deity but maintain it despite feeling that we can't have direct knowledge of him/it. The tiny number of theistic agnostics tend to be mystics.

But someone who believes in God but is disgusted or repelled by religion probably isn't an agnostic either. They are more likely a religiously unaligned theist. And there are plenty of those.

**smack** · May 03, 2005, 03:09 AM

Ah, so you mean by history: All of human History, capital H. I took it to mean any portion thereof, including personal history. So I answered Yes, affected by history.

If you can know God and have no use for any history, you are so entirely in the moment that your 'belief' will not matter a whit. The same can be said without the God part

**Garbarsardar** · May 03, 2005, 07:18 AM

History is science, God is faith. I could not find a link between the two except the idiotic "prove that God does/does not exist" debate.

**Fatigue** · May 03, 2005, 11:49 AM

Originally posted by Garbarsardar@May 3 2005, 08:18 PM
History is science,

I would think that history is too subjective to be a science, if a person records history they'll ultimately have their view of events shaped by their own cultural context...so I'm not too sure about it being as exact as science. An up to date example of this'd be the Japanese trying to gloss over Nanjing (Nanking?), or if you want an older one...I remember the greek historian Herodotus saying that 5 200 Greeks repelled an army of 5 million Persians at Thermoplyae, though I doubt these are the real figures (Ie. He probably inflated them to make the Greeks stand all the more heroic - see what I mean by cultural context).

And yeah, I've definitely been shaped by History, both my own and 'overall' (so to speak). I take a look at the past and I am simultaneously awed and repulsed; awed out of the good Religion has done, and it's horrors. This has lead me (as well as a few personal experiences) to become an Agnostic (this was a gradual thing of course, not like I just decided it offhand or something *tongue*). I'll probably remain so for the rest of my days, since I don't see how my view of things could be changed.

Ah, before I forget; I voted 'No - affected by history'.

**Xiaodun** · May 03, 2005, 11:51 AM

History is not science because history was not theorized on logic but rather recorded. In fact, we dont even know if the things we are learning in history classes are true so its closer to faith.

**Garbarsardar** · May 03, 2005, 01:19 PM

I think there is a permanent misunderstanding between what we call history, or historical text, and the historiographical science, which is as scientific any human study can be.
Obviously history cannot prove by experimental methods as neithr can sociology or social anthropology or many branches of psychology.
Still there is system and method and croos-referencing and all these goodies that charachterize scientific research. Of course Herodotous was limited by second hand accounts and fuelled by political purpose in stating such numbers for Thermopylae. Still even us -who are not history scientists- can, using cross referencing, like sources about logistics and production capacity, to refute Herodotous position. As we can refute any claim that "less than 3.000.000 died in China during the cultural revolution" based on notary archives.
And as you know disproving a theory is the most sound scientific basis.
So I reiterate: History has two meanings: the unchecked written or oral tradition, and the science of extracting the safest conclusions, or producing the most accurate possible reconstruction of an event.
That is why I said that: History is science and God is faith. And to dispell any subsequent misinterpretation I can add: religion is politics.

**ximan** · May 03, 2005, 02:08 PM

Yes, I believe in a God, and am not influenced by history. I believe in it only out of logic.

**LegionnaireX** · May 03, 2005, 02:38 PM

I believe in God. My beliefs are influenced by history and the environment that surrounds me where I live. But, this thread is bound to become a flame war/ "debate" as I've seen it already has begun to become on. What is with all these religious questions/polls lately?

**Wild Bill Kelso** · May 03, 2005, 07:41 PM

I am going to close this for now and move it to the Ethos, Mores, et Monastica. Once the debates are over and this area is open to all members please send me a PM to reopen this in case I forget too.

WBK

**Hellenic Hoplite** · May 24, 2005, 11:59 AM

I would like to provide you with my opinion on that. Before that, I want to say that I totally respect those of different beliefs, such as those who are atheists. The truth is that as regards God, in a way everyone is right. Explaining now:

I believe that what we are is divided into two categories. What we know, and what we believe.

What we know contains our physical self (it is something that we have acquired, as if the material world was a bank), our memories, and some things that have become far too obvious for us (even if they are finally wrong) so that we record them in this book.

What we believe contains all those materials that keep our half-built construction of knowledge from falling apart. We need our beliefs, until we replace them with knowledge.

As for God, in my personal opinion there is only one God and only one Religion. The God is pretty much everything. He is not a nice old man sitting on a throne with angels playing harps around him, as the Jewish prophets described him. He is no more love than hate, no more pleasure than pain, no more creation than destruction. He is the absolute father because he leaves the absolute freedom to his kids, without interfering at all with their games. He lets them make all the choices and learn from their own, often terrible, mistakes. He does that so that they will learn quickly. What's at the end of the line of evolution? I don't know. But then again, if I knew, why would I bother to find out?

And the one Religion is the truth. No religion can ever be bigger than the truth. The common religions are just books written by people to affect other people towards a good life, so that they can get to know truth.

Therefore the most Religious person in this world was Socrates. He knew so much, and yet he had realized that 'It's not the journey's end, it's just began'.

**Patrick_B@teman** · May 24, 2005, 12:14 PM

Personally I'm an atheist. As my knowledge of history has become more apparent over the years I can really begin to seen how religion fits in. For example, when is relgion most at its peak? In times of trouble of course - by that I mean The fall of the Romans - Christianity was becoming more widespread - and also they converted to Christianity. Islam came about in times of need - major political change was occuring - and people needed something to believe in. Muhammad was the man who spread the word of Allah and later the Quran was to be recorded. We also have the Medieval times in which life was arduous and Christianity was the way to cleanse your soul and be guaranteed a place in heaven. Religion these days plays a much smaller role in lots of peoples lives - simply because life is alot easier - these days people worry about the most stupid of things - things that would not have bothered any person living hundereds if not thousands of years ago. It goes to show that with scientific research and easier lifestyles how much religion is playing a smaller role in peoples daily lives.