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Thread: Mehmed II: Homosexual Conqueror?

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    Romano-Dacis's Avatar Robespierre v2.0
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    Default Mehmed II: Homosexual Conqueror?

    Ok, this thing always seemed a little odd to me. I read plenty about Vlad Dracula, and one of the things that is emphasized about his childhood as an Ottoman hostage is that his brother Radu the Handsome had a gay relationship with Mehmed the Conqueror.

    Allow me to give you an example:
    https://dspace.uta.edu/bitstream/101...i-uta-1977.pdf
    While the character of Vlad Ţepeş was hardened by his captivity, Radu eventually succumbed to the sexual affections of Murad’s son, Mehmed II. He was to become Mehmed’s minion and later his choice for the Wallachian throne.

    Considering the strong Orthodox religion with which Vlad Dracula was raised, I believe it is very likely that his time in Turkish captivity had a profound effect upon him. Witnessing the homosexual nature of his brother’s sexual submission would have assaulted the young Vlad on many levels. To an Orthodox Christian, the act itself was considered sinful. Seeing his own brother pander to the enemy in order to gain favor could have only filled ‘the son the dragon’ with a burning hatred for his captors.
    Another example:
    http://web.f.bg.ac.yu/download/121AN...-1.pdf#page=85
    The kindness that Mehmet had shown to the Emperor’s surviving ministers
    was of short duration. He had talked of making Lukas Notaras governor
    of the conquered city. He put his loyalty to the test…Someone whispered to
    him that Notaras’s fourteen-year old son was a boy of exceptional beauty. The
    Sultan at once sent a eunuch to the house of the megadux to demand that the
    boy be sent to him for his pleasure.
    Another example:
    http://digitalcommons.macalester.edu...&context=islam

    Known homosexuals were tolerated in public office if they continue to publicly live a heterosexual lifestyle. For instance, Sultan Mehmet Fatif, Ottoman conqueror of
    Constantinople and Sultan Mahmud Ghaznawi, who invaded India from Afghanistan, are both important historical figures and known gays. Both men had several wives and children.
    While Westerners would view these men—and those like them—as bisexual, Muslims view them as consistent with shari’a; they maintained an outwardly conforming appearance in terms of familial and public life but happened to engage in homosexual activity.

    Now I've read similar references in other books about Dracula, but those books always seemed somewhat sensational to me and the reference could be excused as just that: sensationalism. However, could this be true? Was Mehmed II homosexual or bisexual? How prevalent was this at the Ottoman court? I always assumed notions of Orientalist sensuality, like those depicted in the famous Turkish bath painting, were more myth than fact.

    So the question is: was Mehmed the Conqueror gay and if so, is he an exception or was this a normality?
    Last edited by Romano-Dacis; March 28, 2009 at 01:54 PM.

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    Pallantides's Avatar Centurio Primus Ordine
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    Default Re: Mehmed II: Homosexual Conqueror?

    Wasn't pederasty fairly common among the Ottomans?



    So what if he was a homosexual, nothing wrong with that, just look at Alexander the Great.
    Last edited by Pallantides; March 28, 2009 at 02:04 PM.

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    Sher Khan's Avatar Mad Nomad Dad
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    Default Re: Mehmed II: Homosexual Conqueror?

    Actually, I would have to consider the original sources for these things. I'm not sure about the sources about Vlad and Radu, but the original sources for Lukas Notarus and his son is just one (originally) and from a Greek Orthodox source.

    It stands on the same leg of truth or believability as, say, Constantine's last charge in the fall of Constantinople.

    Sultan Mahmud Ghaznawi, who invaded India from Afghanistan, are both important historical figures and known gays.
    What? I've never heard of this.
    Last edited by Sher Khan; March 28, 2009 at 02:29 PM.

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    Default Re: Mehmed II: Homosexual Conqueror?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pallantides View Post
    So what if he was a homosexual, nothing wrong with that, just look at Alexander the Great.
    Pallantides you must stop seeing Hollywood films i think....

    About topic....

    The historian Steven Runciman recounts that during the siege of Constantinople Mehmet promised his men "the women and boys of the city." Upon its conquest, he ordered the 14 year old son of the Grand Duke Lucas Notaras be brought to him for his personal pleasure.

    When the father refused to deliver his son to such a fate he had them both decapitated on the spot.
    (Runciman, Steven (1990). The Fall of Constantinople, 1453, Cambridge University Press. ISBN 0521398320.)

    This story was originally recorded by Doukas, a Byzantine Greek living in Constantinople at the time of the fall of the city and does not appear in accounts by other Greeks who witnessed the conquest.
    Some modern scholars believe that the tale is merely one of a long series of attempts to portray Muslims as morally inferior, and point to the story of Saint Pelagius as its probable inspiration.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehmed_II

    i try to find something about that in Greek(from non-Orthodox)sources...cause i do not trust wiki....
    Last edited by Starlightman; March 28, 2009 at 02:42 PM.

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    Originally Posted by Ferrets54
    It's relevent if you argue the Elgin Marbles should be returned to Athens because they were "stolen", because the Athenians themselves stole the money to produce them.

    ________________________________________________________________

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    Default Re: Mehmed II: Homosexual Conqueror?

    Quote Originally Posted by Starlightman View Post
    Pallantides you must stop seeing Hollywood films i think....
    What does Hollywood have to do with ancient homosexuality?
    If anything Hollywood tones down the gay aspects.

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    Default Re: Mehmed II: Homosexual Conqueror?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pallantides View Post
    So what if he was a homosexual, nothing wrong with that, just look at Alexander the Great.
    you're sure that he was a homosexual?

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    Default Re: Mehmed II: Homosexual Conqueror?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vlad IV Felix View Post
    you're sure that he was a homosexual?
    I think he was bisexual as it was pretty common among the ancient Greeks.

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    Default Re: Mehmed II: Homosexual Conqueror?

    source!

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    Default Re: Mehmed II: Homosexual Conqueror?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pallantides View Post
    I think he was bisexual as it was pretty common among the ancient Greeks.
    this "statement" makes me to think this...:"if the important Greeks was(put here everything you want),then why it is so bad to be also like them"....

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    "You can fool all of the people some of the time
    You can fool some of the people all of the time
    But you can't fool all of the people all of the time. "
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    "There are three truths: my truth, your truth and the truth."
    Chinese Proverb

    Originally Posted by Ferrets54
    It's relevent if you argue the Elgin Marbles should be returned to Athens because they were "stolen", because the Athenians themselves stole the money to produce them.

    ________________________________________________________________

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    Default Re: Mehmed II: Homosexual Conqueror?

    This is getting off-topic as this is about whatever Mehmed II was a homosexual and not Alexander the great or the ancient greeks.

    sources:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederas...ancient_greece
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosex...ancient_Greece
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartan_pederasty



    warning some ancient greek art depicting nudity
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    (note on vase 2:this one is Etruscan)

    Last edited by Pallantides; March 28, 2009 at 04:33 PM.

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    Default Re: Mehmed II: Homosexual Conqueror?

    Back on Mehmed II: you mentioned pederastry. If it is true that Mehmed II was gay with Radu it wouldn't be pedophilia since Mehmed was only 5 years older than Radu. I personally am still looking for the primary source on this supposed affair. It seems the original propagator of this idea was one Radu Florescu, but his book is quite frankly written in such a sensationalist manner that it's hard to believe. Phrases like "Vlad held human life with low regard" don't exactly strengthen his credibility.

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    Default Re: Mehmed II: Homosexual Conqueror?

    ..."Several of the officers and courtiers who were captured were at first honourably treated by the Sultan. Prominent prisoners were the Grand Duke Loukas Notaras, with his wife and two sons, and his son-in-law, a Cantacuzene, and the Grand Domestic Andronikos Palaiologos Cantacuzene. But five days after the conquest they were arrested with nine other notables and executed. The cause of their punishment is said to have been the Grand Duke's refusal to hand over one of his sons to the Sultan's pleasure. His children were therefore murdered before his eyes and he himself was then decapitated. His son-in-law and the Grand Domestic were also beheaded. Notaras was without doubt a brave man, but it was his treachery more than his courage that the Sultan feared. Mehmed had come round to the opinion expressed by some of his advisers that the cream of the Byzantine aristocracy would be safer dead than alive."

    Donald Nicol. "Constantine XI and Mehmed II: the fall of Constantinople 1448-53"


    from his Last Centuries of Byzantium. Cambridge University Press, 1993 [2nd edition]. Chapter 18.

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    Originally Posted by Ferrets54
    It's relevent if you argue the Elgin Marbles should be returned to Athens because they were "stolen", because the Athenians themselves stole the money to produce them.

    ________________________________________________________________

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    Sher Khan's Avatar Mad Nomad Dad
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    Default Re: Mehmed II: Homosexual Conqueror?

    That's just repeating the one source we have, however. Again, about as reliable as the account of Constantine XI's death.

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    Default Re: Mehmed II: Homosexual Conqueror?

    Ohh, sure...

    And constantine XI never died during the siege but was captured and raped by MehmetII, sure...

    Mehmed would be killed if he was gay I suppose...
    Miss me yet?

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    Default Re: Mehmed II: Homosexual Conqueror?

    Mehmed on Radu: Now thats what you call completely dominating your opponents.




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    Default Re: Mehmed II: Homosexual Conqueror?

    I am not stating this in relation to Mehmet or Alexander or anyone else but it's not just about "homosexual" or "straight" it's about "dominant" and "submissive". Alpha males of many mammalian species mount to express dominance. It seems to occur in humans male prisons being one particular environment.

    To think in terms of gay and straight is a classic mistake.
    "If we didn't have cruxifixion, this country'd be in a right bloody mess"


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    Default Re: Mehmed II: Homosexual Conqueror?

    Quote Originally Posted by St Naffatun View Post
    I am not stating this in relation to Mehmet or Alexander or anyone else but it's not just about "homosexual" or "straight" it's about "dominant" and "submissive". Alpha males of many mammalian species mount to express dominance. It seems to occur in humans male prisons being one particular environment.

    To think in terms of gay and straight is a classic mistake.
    Well then there is also the case of Ancient homo-erotic art and poetry that shows that there was affection and not only dominance involved in same sex pairings.

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    Default Re: Mehmed II: Homosexual Conqueror?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sher Khan View Post
    That's just repeating the one source we have, however. Again, about as reliable as the account of Constantine XI's death.
    i think you asked for sources and I bring something from non-orthodox...

    @Pallantides....

    what i must say about your above post....?it saws biased sources and reliable as wiki are...but is O.K...here is your answer...

    About ALEXANDER....

    Was Alexander homo- or bi-sexual ???
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    All progressive so-called scholars will rush to state “his sexual prefference is of no interest to us”
    Interestingly enough they conveniently went around this very statement to support a movie that presented the very notion that is allegedly of “no interest to us” …
    Even National Geographic got into the game and conveniently published the Hellenic issue that was related to Alexander and made clear reference to his unproven sexual preference the same time that the reactions for the movie began….
    Hypocricy !!!!

    Today that we see everyone making claims on Hellenic history, after the Egyptians conveniently claiming that he is the son of Nectanabo, the Jews claiming that the Bible had foreseen his arrival and manipulating facts to present him kneeling before the priests of Solomon’s temple, the Romans making claims of being his inheritors, our beloved Northern neighbors claiming him to be a Slav… well claims from the homosexual community are of no real suprise… (especially after reading the “Gay Manifesto” [see Uncategorized])
    But was he really homosexual ???
    No true scholar of either ancient nor modern times has provided any ounce of proof for this alleged prefernce. Among hundreds of quotes that could be presented, one of the most interesting comes from Athenaeus of Naucratis and his “The Deipnosophists” (X.45). There we we learn that :
    “And Hieronymus. in his “Letters”, says, that Theophrastus says, that Alexander was not open to ‘bodily pleasures’; and accordingly, when Olympian had given him Callixene, a Thessaian courtesan, for a mistress, who was a most beautiful woman, and all this was done with the consent of Philip, {for they were afraid that he would become effeminate } ( ευλαβουντο γαρ μη γυννις ειη) she was constantly obliged to ask him herself to do his duty by her.”
    This part of the text clearly indicates several interesting aspects of Alexander’s early life and the public opinion towards homosexuality..
    We find his mother and father feared that his continence towards ‘bodily pleasures’ are an indication of an effeminate future.
    This quote actually indicates the true norm, which is that homosexuality was viewed upon as a plague that should be treated with, and actually destroys all claims of Phillip’s alleged acceptance (or participation) towards homosexual relations.. It is actually simple logic to note that the ‘preference’ in question was never accepted as the very reference to fear makes this quite clear to us..
    But he always continient ???
    lets take a look at Alexander’s character as depicted in the texts of Plutarch.
    Life of Alexander 21.4 :
    “But Alexander, esteeming it more kingly to govern himself than to conquer his enemies, sought no intimacy with any one of them, nor indeed with any other women before marriage”
    Life of Alexander 21.5
    “But as for the other captive women, seeing that they were surpassingly stately and beautiful, he merely said jestingly that Persian women were torments to the eyes.1 And displaying in rivalry with their fair looks the beauty of his own sobriety and self-control, he passed them by as though they were lifeless statues for display.”
    On the Fortune or the Virtue of Alexander 9
    “Thus, in the first place, the very scope and aim of Alexander’s expedition speaks him a philosopher, as one that sought not to gain for himself luxurious splendor or riches, but to establish concord, peace, and mutual community among all men.”
    On the Fortune or the Virtue of Alexander 11
    “Therefore we may behold in Alexander a warlike humanity, a meek fortitude, a liberality poised with good husbandry, anger easily appeased, chaste amours, a busy relaxation of mind, and labor not wanting recreation.”
    On the Fortune or the Virtue of Alexander 11
    “I know not how to give a greater applause to the actions of Alexander, than by adding the word “philosophically,” for in that word all other things are included. Being ravished with the beauty of Roxana, the daughter of Oxyarthes, dancing among the captive ladies, he never assailed her with injurious lust, but married her philosophically.”
    On the Fortune or the Virtue of Alexander II. 2
    “I could have wished, said Alexander, rather to have lost a part of my kingdom than to have seen Thessalus vanquished. Yet he neither interceded with the judges nor anywhere disapproved or blamed the judgment; believing it became him to be superior to all others, only to submit to justice.”
    We literally could go on and on, presenting quotes that refer to Alexander’s high moral standards..
    We must however note that it is at least unfair that this man, a man that was so abstemious, would see his name slandered by a handfull of ignorant self-proclaimed historians that choose some 2000 years after his death, to promote a specific agenda on his shoulders, ..
    Some have tried to suggest that the recorded fact of Philoxenus wrtting to Alexander about a young boy is an indication of his sexual preference.
    Conveniently all these ’scholars’ choose to ignore the fact that, while the proposition of the governor that attempted to gain Alexander’s favor by sending the usual gifts he would send to the Persian King is well recorded, but on the other hand, so is the responce Alexander gave in return well recorded..
    How could anyone speak of acceptance to such relations when we know that he was literally in outrage asking his men if he had ever done anything so shamefull to justify Philoxenus’ disgracefull proposition and responded by giving him the title of “vilest of men” (Plutarch’s Alexander 22.1) ??
    The very record of his responce should have been more than enough to discharge any such thought.. But in this day and age, it seems that clear records of his denouncing the very though of such a relation are not enough to stop the promotion of the specific agenda..
    Another little incident that has conveniently used by these ‘progressivists’ to promote the specific agenda, is that of Bagoas. In order to understand this, we’ll compare the conveniently used version as presented by Athenaeus of Naucratis and his “The Deipnosophists” and that presented in Plutarch’s Lives Alexander..
    Athenaeus of Naucratis and his “The Deipnosophists” XIII 80
    “Alexander the King was also very much in the habbit of giving in to this fashion. Accordingly, Dicarchus, in his treatise on the Sacrifice at Troy, says that lie was so much under the influence of Bagoas the eunuch, that he kissed him in the sight of tho whole theatre; and that when the whole theatre shouted in approval of the action, he repeated it”
    Plutarch’s Life of Alexander 67.4
    “We are told, too, that he was once viewing some contests in singing and dancing, being well heated with wine, and that his favourite, Bagoas, won the prize for song and dance, and then, all in his festal array, passed through the theatre and took his seat by Alexander’s side; at sight of which the Macedonians clapped their hands and loudly bade the king kiss the victor, until at last he threw his arms about him and kissed him tenderly.”
    This is the event that according to these ’scholars’ proves that Alexander was homosexual.
    Of course the quote, indicates nothing remotely close, but rather indicates that after the crowd’s demand, the King rewarded Bagoas with a kiss.
    But is the whole kiss (on the cheek) actually so significant or have these specific scholars driven by their agenda overlooked specific facts ??
    Is it possible that they ignore the Kallisthenes event and the famous quote “ I am going away only with the loss of a kiss.” ??
    While totally foreign to Hellenic customs, Alexander having encompassed in his troops a large number of foreigners, accepted their custom of ‘proskynesis’.. A custom that of course was never enforced on the Hellenes but rather adopted by a partion that saw it as a ideal chance of getting in good graces with Alexander..Of course Kallisthenes as a student of Aristotle would never accept degrading himself by accepting this barbaric custom…
    So as Arrian describes
    Arrian Anabasis book 4 chap 12 :
    “Alexander drank from a golden goblet the health of the circle of guests, and handed it first to those with whom he had concerted the ceremony of prostration. The first who drank from the goblet rose up and performed the act of prostration, and received a kiss from him. This ceremony proceeded from one to another in due order. But when the pledging of health came to the turn of Callisthenes, he rose up and drank from the goblet, and drew near, wishing to kiss the king without performing the act of prostration. Alexander happened then to be conversing with Hephaestion, and consequently did not observe whether Callisthenes performed the ceremony completely or not. But when Callisthenes was approaching to kiss him, Demetrius, son of Pythonax, one of the Companions, said that he was doing so without having prostrated himself. So the king would not permit him to kiss him”
    Is the prostation some form of proof that Alexander was probably some kind of raging homosexual that had intercourse with every single member of his court or does this simply indicate the adoption of a foreign custom that some have strongly critisized ??
    Obviously the second..
    What is highly interesting when readnig these texts is a difference that may not be so appearant in the translated text.
    Athenaeus clearly mentions this event and refers to a eunuch Bagoas, while Plutarch that gives a far better description of the event, makes no reference to eunuch but to a favorite..
    From what we know, the ‘titles’ of ‘eunuch’ and ‘eromenos’ do not consort together, due to the second’s pedagogic character. But even if we were to accept this ‘title’. Should we actually believe that Alexander,who’s continiency we noted above would chose to ‘take in’ Darius’ personal ‘eunuch’ and present him in public when he wouldn’t even think of having any sort of relations with Roxanne prior to their marriage ??
    This is the very same man, that reacted in total outrage and continuously asked those around him if he had ever done anything so shamefull to accept the disgracefull proposition by Philoxenus..
    So what could have changed now, is there possibly something we’re missing here ??
    Its obvious that everyone eventually gets the reputation that he deserves.. While Atheneus may be quite pleasant to read and has recorded several recepies and everyday habbits, under no condition can he be titled a historian nor a biographer of Alexander, for throughout his entire work, his very names is mentioned some 10 times all in all. Plutarch on the other hand, is considered one of the three authorities (he, Diodorus and Arrian) on Alexander’s life and for a just reason..
    While Atheneus passes through the event in only 3 lines, Plutarch gives us a fully detailed representation and thanks to him we know that there were actually 2 individuals named Bagoas.
    Plutarch clearly makes reference to 2 Bagoas :
    Plutarch Life of Alexander 39:
    “To Parmenio, moreover, Alexander gave the house of Bagoas at Susa, in which it is said there was found apparel worth a thousand talents.”
    Plutarch “On the Fortune or the Virtue of Alexander” B’ 5:
    “The eunuch Bagoas took up the kingship of Persia and bestowed it upon Oarses and Darius.”
    So does Arrian make clear reference B’ 5:
    “My father was killed by conspirators whom you instigated5 as you have yourself boasted to all in your letters; and after slaying Arses, as well as Bagoas, and unjustly seizing the throne contrary to the law of the Persians, and ruling your subjects unjustly, you sent unfriendly letters about me to the Greeks, urging them to wage war with me.”
    But so does Diodorus in both books 16 and 17. Here we learn that Bagoas was an Egyptian chiliarch and that thank to him was the Egyptian revolt supressed. Artaxerxes takes him into his court and makes a eunuch out of him..
    To cut a long story short, he is eventually poisonned by Darius and died..
    These events took place well before Alexander’s campaigne had ever begun. So it is more than obvious that Atheneus, who as we said is neither a historian nor his biographer is simply mistaken and that there was no eunuch named Bagoas in the theater..
    Is it really possible that these scholars that strive to prove he was either homo- or bisexual have simply missed these facts ???
    To my disappointment I’ll have to say deffinitely not


    About Ancient Greeks...


    It was Walter Pater (in the late 1800’s poet and tutor) he and his ‘band’ that just out of a weird coincidence were all homosexuals (his ‘lover’ William Money Hardinge, John Addington Symonds, his buddy Alfred Pretor, Symond’s Latin Prof. John Conington, Edward Carpenter…etc) , originally began this fiasco of a theory in Oxford.

    We find them introducing a totally new ‘theory’, in which Platonic love has nothing to do with “phyche” but is totally based on phisical attraction.
    Later we find a list of wanna-be ‘historians’ of Hellenic sexuality, see: Michel Foucault, John Boswell, John Winkler and David Halperin..etc that were or are homosexuals striving to make some connection between homosexuality and Hellenism.

    The reason, of course, is simple. The Hellenes have always been viewed as a model of civilisation. So what better way to justify their sexual preference than by connecting it to the greatness of the Hellenic civilization and by doing so, legitimising same-sex?
    While today with the words ‘heterosexual’ and ‘homosexual’ (note that both terms including lesbianism were coined after Pater and Co’s fiasco of a theory) we simply denote the sexual preference of an individual.

    The ancient Hellines on the other hand, while had, absolutely no form of definition for ‘heterosexuals’.. used the term ‘κιναίδος’ (kinaidos).. in order to describe ‘homosexuals’ and their preference..
    Why this is of some interest/significance some may wonder… as I said, while the terms today simply define one’s sexual preference, the term ‘κιναίδος’ (kinaidos) actually shows us what they believed.. In order to approach this, we’ll take Epicletus account who has written: ‘the beginning of knowledge comes from the analysis of names’… so we have :
    ‘κιναίδος‘ (kinaidos) = “he who ‘κινεί την αιδώ’ (kinei ten aido)

    from :
    ‘κινέω’ (kineo) = to move , to meddle with things sacred” and
    ‘Αιδώς’ (aidos) = “the personification of a conscience, of shame”

    hence why the comprehensive “Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon” defines the activity of ‘κιναιδεία’ (kinaideia) as “unnatural lust”
    So in reality the very word’s meaning is ‘he who provokes Αιδώς’ (shame).. we see to speak of acceptance when the very term used to describe them indicates their beliefs which was that homosexuals ‘provoke shame’ is rediculous. Also, we should not neglect to mention the well known fact that whoever meddle with ‘Αιδώς’ (Aidos) was always paid a visit by her companion Nemesis.

    Debunking the Myth of Homosexuality in Ancient Greece by Adonis Georgiadis

    A review of Adonis Georgiades' book

    You've got to give Adonis Georgiades credit.
    Here he is, just a shade over 30, and he manages one of Hellas' most prestigious publishing houses, hosts a five-day a week TV show, runs a school which specializes in teaching the ancient language of his ancestors, and somehow still manages to find the time to lecture and write books on the subject nearest and dearest to his heart: the unrivalled and many-faceted glory of ancient Greece: A renaissance man in every sense of the word.

    Naturally, a man like this is going to be more than just a little upset over the distortions and outright fabrications circulating in today's multicultural, postmodern world. A world where the unsuspecting and historically challenged are subjected to whatever deconstructed version of reality the purveyors of the kind of putrescent pap think most suits their worldview of "diversity" and "cultural equality." To such dissembling dimwits, Plato, Dr. Ruth, and Chief Seattle are intellectually, ethically, and philosophically equal! As a result, the unique contributions made by the Greeks in the millenniums-old struggle to lift mankind out of the slime of ignorance and superstition are trivialized, ignored, or put into an ersatz context which helps to promote the "isms" in fashion at the moment.

    Thus, we discover that the Greeks hated and victimized their women, that they imposed their culture upon the poor, suffering peoples they conquered, that they were heartless slave-owners, that they stole their philosophy from the brown-skinned Egyptians, that they appropriated their alphabet from the Semitic Phoenicians, and that some of their most outstanding personalities -- and even some of their gods and goddesses -- were Black! Those of you who have cracked a respectable number of pre-postmodern books, or are frequent visitors to this site, know that such invidious absurdities are untrue, and can easily be proven to be untrue. The fact remains, however, that such is the blather being hustled these days, and a whole generation of innocent youth is being exposed to this poison: A poison purposely injected into their minds in order to create the stateless, colorless, genderless, faithless, inarticulate, boob-tube-mesmerized, consumer-drones the proponents of this Zyclon-B-of-the-intellect want to inhabit the "Global Village" they are hell-bent on creating.

    Such fuzzy-minded huckstering is especially prominent among the professors in the Humanities departments of the colleges and universities of the Western World. The frenzy-to-conform exhibited by these homunculi -- whose shoes don't touch the floor when they are seated in their academic chairs -- is such that they are willing to sell their souls, betray their racial heritage (those who are White), and pollute the quality of their scholarship by playing an active role in the promulgation of this historical mythmaking. And it is here, in these departments, where the most infuriating lie of all -- that which posits the prevalence of homosexuality in ancient Greece -- was born. This myth, engendered in Academia, and "legitimized" by an alien and hostile element in America -- an element that controls the awesome mind-molding power of the media and Hollywood -- could not help but "have legs." And so it has come to pass that even an Al Sharpton -- a man with the intellect of a retarded Neanderthal -- could publicly refer to the ancient Greeks as "a bunch of fairies" in a speech given before an audience of his mentally challenged acolytes. "Mentally challenged" because instead of hissing and booing at such patronizingly obvious demagoguery, they cheered, clapped, whistled, and hooted with bug-eyed delight at hearing Whitey traduced and ridiculed by one of their own.

    This is the myth that Adonis Georgiades so successfully and convincingly demolishes in his book Debunking the Myth of Homosexuality in Ancient Greece.

    Georgiades manages, in just over 200 easy-to-read and well-documented pages, to cite a multitude of ancient sources which shed the light of truth upon the question of just how homosexuals and homosexuality were regarded in the Hellas of the 9th to the 4th century B.C. His thesis is simple: "Of course homosexuality existed in Greece, just as it has existed, and will continue to exist, everywhere and at all times in human history. However, while it did exist, it was never legally sanctioned, thought to be a cultural norm, or engaged in without risk of serious punishment, including exile and death." A pitiful creature like Barney Frank, for instance, would have -- upon his particular "proclivity" being discovered -- been executed or sent into exile. After which, his living quarters would have been fumigated and ritually purified by a priest. Unless, of course, he had previously "gone public" with his homosexual lifestyle. In that case, though he would have been permitted to live, he would, under Athenian law (grafí etairísios), not be permitted to become one of the nine archons, nor to discharge the office of priest, nor to
    act as an advocate for the state, nor shall he hold any office whatsoever, at home or abroad, whether filled by lot or by election; he shall not be sent as a herald; he shall not take part in debate, nor be present at the public sacrifices; when the citizens are wearing garlands, he shall wear none; and he shall not enter within the limits of the place that has been purified for the assembling of the people. Any man who has been convicted of defying these prohibitions pertaining to sexual conduct shall be put to death (Aeschines. "Contra Timarchus," as cited in

    Georgiades, p. 69).

    We learn as well that "Athens had the strictest laws pertaining to homosexuality of any democracy that has ever existed" (62). In non-democratic Sparta, as well as in democratic Crete and the rest of democratic Hellas, there were similar prohibitions with similar punishments as that meted out in Athens, and Georgiades gives us citations galore to prove his main thesis: "At no time, and in no place, was this practice considered normal behavior, or those engaged in it allowed to go unpunished" (passim). In order to remove any doubt whatsoever, he draws on such ancient luminaries as Aeschylus, Aristophanes, Diodorus Seculus, Euripides, Homer, Lysias, Plato, Plutarch and Xenophon, all of whom have left a written record as to what the prevailing norms were concerning this behavior. He also covers Greek vase painting, Mythology and Lesbianism, while not neglecting to reveal the truth about such much-maligned personalities from Hellas' glorious past as Achilles and Patroclus, Alcibiades and Socrates, Alexander the Great and Hephaestion, and the woman that the later Greeks regarded as "the greatest of the lyric poets," Sappho.

    Greek vase painting has been a favorite source for the distorters of Greek culture and civilization. Georgiades points out that, of the tens of thousands of vases unearthed so far (the count for just the province of Attica, where Athens is located, is over 80,000), only 30 or so have an overtly homosexual theme; representing, in other words, just .01% of the total (127). When one compares this small percentage to what we see today on TV, in ads, books, magazines, the cinema, etc., one can just imagine what future generations will think of us. There is more, much more, but the purpose of this review is to stimulate the reader to order the book to see for himself just how Georgiades has managed to shed the light of truth on this important aspect of Greek history.

    There is one more thing, however, that must be said. Georgiades has -- in a clear and easy-to-comprehend manner -- delineated the difference between what the ancients meant when they used the words "Erastis" and "Eromenos," and the way these words are translated and used in our time. This alone is worth the price of the book. Briefly, to the ancient Greeks, the term Erastis denoted a man who mentored, in a non-physical way, an Eromenos. The Eromenos was in all cases a beardless youth who looked up to and respected his mentor, and who had been commissioned by the boy's parents to take on the vital chore of preparing him to assume the roles of husband, father, soldier, and active citizen in the affairs of his community. Georgiades delves deeply into this relationship, and explains how and why these terms have come today to be confused with the "dominant" and "passive" partners in an homosexual union.

    We can only be grateful that there are still young men around like Adonis Georgiades who want only to see that the truth is told about the country they love. This book is highly recommended, and though it has been published only in Greek to date, we sincerely hope to see an English language edition in the near future.

    http://d.scribd.com/docs/1p0jyuc89qzbrh3w0b66.pdf


    We then move on to the claim of vase paintings suggesting the “dominant status of pederasty in Athenian social life”.. One can’t but wonder how on earth a total of some 30 vases (A.Georgiades “Debunking the Myth of Homosexuality in Ancient Greece”) which indeed do depict a homosexual scene and are presented by K.J.Dover, a Dover that is considered an authority in the field, can justify the outreageous claim of “dominant status”?

    One of the most important and prestigious publishing houses in Hellas is that of Ekdotike Athenon, in their series of books dedicated to Hellenic Art there is one volume about ancient vases. In their attempt to measure the amount of vases in total, they conclude that the total of vases unearthed in Athens alone reaches 80.000!!!, 80.000 vases from Athens and despite the fact that Dover managed to find a total of 30, (the rest are either non-related to the subject or simply based on wild assumptions, they dare distort history by claiming “dominant status”.
    Of course Dover attempts through mistaken interpretations to find homosexual scenes, for example, according to Dover the well known “Achilles mending Patroklos’ wound” is related to homosexuality.
    Accoding to Dover the painter was under great pressure to conceal Patroklos’ genitals.


    or this fine example (seen on Dover’s book cover)

    In which the hoop, holds a symbolism of its own !!!

    ________Team Member of CBURIGreat Conflicts 872-1071 ________
    Dominion of the Sword
    IGreece Playable & Improvement mod BETA
    _________ Roman Warship 50 B.C 1/250 scaleIAthenian Trireme _________

    __________under the patronage of noble Okmin-san ___________








    [COLOR=Red]
    "You can fool all of the people some of the time
    You can fool some of the people all of the time
    But you can't fool all of the people all of the time. "
    Abraham Lincoln, 1864

    "There are three truths: my truth, your truth and the truth."
    Chinese Proverb

    Originally Posted by Ferrets54
    It's relevent if you argue the Elgin Marbles should be returned to Athens because they were "stolen", because the Athenians themselves stole the money to produce them.

    ________________________________________________________________

  19. #19
    Pallantides's Avatar Centurio Primus Ordine
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    Default Re: Mehmed II: Homosexual Conqueror?

    Nice...I love how he refers to claiming Alexander as homosexual/bisexual as slandering, therefore in his eyes there must be something wrong with being gay...shows his view clearly.


    As I told you in pm, start looking at history objectively instead of as national prestige...

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 







  20. #20
    antaeus's Avatar neon
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    Default Re: Mehmed II: Homosexual Conqueror?

    this thread reeks of teenage boy's homophobia.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

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