Regiments, Battalions, Companies

[AmeriBriton]

Work in progress so to speak, and I'm not sure if I will even release it.

I don't like how the game refers to a unit of 160 or less as a "Regiment", and I do not see in any of the newly released mods (thank you, by the way to those modders, you guys are awesome) nor in any future ideas that this will change.


A Regiment Consists of about 1000 to 5000 men. I have tweaked a bit my settings and added 800 men to the current setup, but having around 16 Regiments is very laggy. So I'm testing with certain numbers to keep it the lag to a minimal, but retain the realism of a Regiment. So I then decided to Look into Battalions. Battalions are 500, 1,500 men. I haven't tested 500 men yet, because the game for some reason is not recognising my changes now.

Other than that, I wonder if its possible to change the way the game names units when they are recruited for example: When the 1st Regiment of Foot is recruited, The its is recruited as 1st Battalion, 1st Regiment of Foot, or A Coy, 1st Battalion, 1st Regiment of Foot.

As I said work in progress, and seeing as how the communities can be towards up and coming modders, I'm not even sure if I will release But I figured I'd post here and see if anyone shared in my frustrations with the idea of a 160 man Regiment.

[2ltben]

You can change the names of your units, don't forget. In the info screen.

[AmeriBriton]

Yes, but after awhile its rather annoying. I'm also looking into Regional named troops, Like 1st Battalion, East Essex Regiment, or 2nd Battalion North Shore Regiment.

[Bongfu]

In Suum Cuique we plan to have regional regiments recruitable. So say for example you want to recruit the 1st regiment kind of line, it will be recruitable in bandenburg. If you recruit 8 of those line, they are still in the same regiment, just a different battalion. This would simulate the regiment effect without having to expand the men per unit.

[geala]

The units in TW games have always been symbols. Imo it's not necessary to give them the same numbers in game than they had in reality.

If you want some reality then you also have to stay away from regiments and companies. They were administrative units only. The tactical units were the battalion and squadron. The idea to give units automatically battalion/squadron numbers and regimental names or numbers is fine imho. But it should be restricted to two or three battalions per regiment.

If I recruit an infantry unit it should be a battalion. Like this: I./ 5. Regiment of Infantry, the next II./ 5. Regiment of Infantry, then I./ 6. Regiment of Infantry. And so on. Or, for Prussia f.e.: I./ Infanterieregiment 5, II./ Infanterieregiment 5 or, also possible I./IR 5, II./IR 5, I./IR 6 and so on. This is not totally historically correct but would be a great progress to the system now used in ETW.

[LEGIO_Desaix]

Yes, I've always looked at Empire scale as 1:5
An infantry unit more or less a battalion, an cavalry unit roughly a regiment. This suits well for historical purpose: in the battlefield companies acted together (seldom detached), instead regiments of 2 to 5 battalions could had often different front and tasks.
Battalion for infantry is the right functional scale in Empire.

[clibinarium]

I think its best to forget about the regiment as an entity on the battlefield, as has been pointed out the basic unit of manoeuvre was the battalion, and many regiments were of a single battalion anyway. Two battalions of the same regiment might be brigaded together but they'd operate no differently than two brigaded battalions of different regiments.

If you look at orders of battle in detail, battalion strength would rarely be up to the "paper" level. About 500 to 800 seems usual, but it could dip down to 200 or so. In the American revolution you'll see battalions range from 100 men, to 1000 or more in the same small army.

[AmeriBriton]

I do agree, Companies may be the wrong way. Battalions on the other hand are much more suitable.

I finally figured it out, and deployed 400-500 men units on the Battlefield in ETW. I think I will use this as the core, as it seems pretty neutral as in a campaign, on normal or medium settings I haven't seen full "stack" Armies, let alone a "Grand Armee"

Now I just have to figure out how to get the last rank to fire in combat, rather than just kneel behind the third rank. I playing with Elite units as well, trying to get them to Rank fire. The Black Watch only Platoon fire, same with the Grenadiers and another Elite unit.


@Bongfu
You know, I was looking at Suum Cuique before visiting back here. Looks quite interesting, but its only catered to the Prussian Leader, no? It was a quick look so forgive me if I missed it.

[Frost1977]

the units as they come are about company strength.

I belive the us has a structure similar to this

1 squad =9 mean, 3 squads per platoon +the platoon leader&sargent and such

so ballpark of 40 mean per platoon.

3 platoons = 1 company 3-4 companys =1 battalion 3 battalions=1regiment

calvary would use Troop-squadron-regiment system
i did a lot of looking around and researching for use with the US in this game.

if i understand it write and i could be way wrong.
a regiment is made up of units that are all alike. IE all line infantry.

then each stack would be a brigade made up of mixed unit types (could be about the size of a regiment to a couple regiments)

wikipedia has a big write up on it, yahoo military orginization

[BarnesBL0278]

It all begins with the fireteam. The most basic element. 3-4 men, 4 in most western militaries. 3-4 Fireteam per squad. 3-4 Squads per platoon. 3-4 Platoons per company, plus a weapons platoon and a HQ platoon. 3-4 companies to a batallion, plus H&H. Typically 3 Bat's to a Regiment. Now here's where it gets dicey. There could be umpteen thousand regiments in a division. That all depends on the particular army, and how he divides up. Could be a bajilion divisions in a corps, could be one. Again, all up to that command. And there's all sorts of Corps. They just form armies, some bigger, some smaller.

[AmeriBriton]

Thank you, Frost and Barnes. I do know about the Fireteams and Platoons, as I lead a squad in the Army. What I'm having trouble with though is the battle formations of the US Army in the late 18th centurty and 19th Century. Did they fight in battalions, or regiments? Did they fight as a brigade?

Great Britain fought in Battalions, with the 1st Battalion going to war, and the second staying behind at home to send replacements and recruit.

[Frost1977]

my understanding is that during the civil war, it was set up a lot like the marines are, even now with a regimental system with brigades containing 3-5 regiments

i want to remember hearing that General grant had 3 brigades under his command.

i might be wrong but the way i read it to stay historical at least to the civil war
if 1 unit card is a battalion (cavalry back then would be called a squadron, and company a troop-think john wayne/john ford cavalry trilogy)

a regiment might be 2 units of infantry 160men, 1 alt. infantry longrifles etc. 1 cavalry, 1 arty.


when play non- US factions i don't worry about naming them.

but when i play the US what i plan to do is use the unit editor to boost the size of the US units to battalion size (360 men) (i kinda make up my own system) is put out a spread sheet where i can put like units in regiments (artillery i will probably keep battery/company size) (and instead of 20 stack armys i would probably be using 10 stackers)

3 to 4 unit cards in a regiment, and then my armys will be brigades , and with 2 or 3 brigades to a division.

(except garrison troops, i consider all garrison troops in north american part of the same division)

then i can name a unit of line infantry : 1st battalion 1st infantry regiment

i have another sheet lined off where i can just write in the division brigade and commander
(plus i name the generals body guard unit the division/brigade then i know all units in that army are under that brigade regardless of their regiment.)

1st division 1st brigade nathanial green
1st division 2nd brigade Joe Smith etc. with maybe 3 brigades per division.

it does get repetitive though,

i also name ships though i normally just keep the generated name, unless its something like where a brig gets named Intrepid or independence a name like that belongs to a bit bigger ship

[Condottiere SOG]

Work in progress so to speak, and I'm not sure if I will even release it.

I don't like how the game refers to a unit of 160 or less as a "Regiment", and I do not see in any of the newly released mods (thank you, by the way to those modders, you guys are awesome) nor in any future ideas that this will change.


A Regiment Consists of about 1000 to 5000 men. I have tweaked a bit my settings and added 800 men to the current setup, but having around 16 Regiments is very laggy. So I'm testing with certain numbers to keep it the lag to a minimal, but retain the realism of a Regiment. So I then decided to Look into Battalions. Battalions are 500, 1,500 men. I haven't tested 500 men yet, because the game for some reason is not recognising my changes now.

Other than that, I wonder if its possible to change the way the game names units when they are recruited for example: When the 1st Regiment of Foot is recruited, The its is recruited as 1st Battalion, 1st Regiment of Foot, or A Coy, 1st Battalion, 1st Regiment of Foot.

As I said work in progress, and seeing as how the communities can be towards up and coming modders, I'm not even sure if I will release But I figured I'd post here and see if anyone shared in my frustrations with the idea of a 160 man Regiment.

Typically, a regiments paper strength was about 1200-1700men in this period. Rarely was a regiment at full strength. Usually, they had about 50-80percent of their strength in the best of times. Especially in the case of England, regiments consisted of a single combat ready battalion, the other being used on the home front as a propaganda tool or for recruitment and press-gangs. This was not exclusive to England, as Frederick the Great's army had the worst reputation for press-gangs and induction. Numbers above 2000 are getting into brigade strength units(European standards).

[AmeriBriton]

Yes, Intrepid or Independence should be more Line ships.

I've come to a decision that as a core, Line infantry should be around 500 men in Battalion strength units, rather Company sized 160 man units.

Frost, as for Cavalry, during Colonial times, and the Revolution, the Cavalry were in Regiments I believe, and Companies. Cavalry Troops didn't evolve until Mexico.. I believe anyway...

[BarnesBL0278]

Really, warfare in the civil war was entirely different than previously. Often, you had men advance on a brigade front (Pickett's charge, prime example) but just as often, if not more so, it broke down into regiments. Butthen your regimental commanders would utilize his Bat's, whose commanders would thusly place their companies. But as the overall commander, you typically moved Brigades. Lee would speak to Longstreet and Jackson, and tell them what he wanted done, and they would get it done. Lee would sometimes, if not more often than not, micromanage brigades.
Typically, it only went as low as Regiment though. A regiment of rifles in the Civil War probably only ammounted to 500 men mid war. By 1864, the 14th Tennessee mustered less than a hundred men, and had less than thirty when it mustered out in '65.

Regiments were utterly gutted in the civil war. Of your total effectives, you could expect to lose 10-15 percent on the march, and another 10 percent to sick call. Start tallying up gear watches, litter carriers, rear guards, pickets, prisoner guards, and the like, you're looking at being around 60 percent at the start of the battle.

[AmeriBriton]

The Army went over an Overhaul though, during the period between 1813 to Mexico.

[clibinarium]

One needs to be very careful about projecting modern army structures onto 18th Century armies. The Napoleonic wars saw a fundamental change in the organisation of armies, with the introduction of divisions and corps. These designations did not really exist formally beforehand. The battalion was usually the smallest unit a general ordered around the field. These would be brigaded together with other battalions to form a brigade, but the brigade was not a permanent formation; they would be designated before a battle as the situation dictated. Brigades would then be formed into "lines" or "wings" on the day of battle. The term "division" may have been sometimes used, but it was not a formal structure (and sometimes its used as a reference to groupings of companies which can be confusing) Again there was no permanence to these designations.
This ad hoc approach came under strain when armies were large. Some of the armies that look the field in the 1690's 1700's were huge, and it was realised that they were too big to control in battle, so thereafter armies tended to be well under 100,000 men, more like 50,000 in a substantial battle.
The large conscript armies of the 1790s onwards needed the additions of divisional and corps structure to make them controllable by the generals. The corps as a self contained army with attached cavalry and artillery did not really exist beforehand, though of course a small army or "detachment" might contain all three arms, but again would be put together with a specific task in mind, and only until the completion of that task. It is interesting to see the corps system having its roots in the "Legion" idea of the middle 18th century. Theorists had been looking back at the Roman legions (there was an upsurge in classical learning generally) and suggested that a modern legion could be formed with a core of infantry and attached cavalry and artillery. France and Prussia seem to have been the foremost practitioners of this. A lot of these units were of bad to middling quality (they tended to attract men who were not enthusiastic about regular army discipline and were looking forward to looting), but some of the better ones proved very adept at the war of raids and outposts.

[Marcus Licinius]

Only the European continent armies used 3+ Battalions with maybe a 4th in the Depots, England had normally 2 battalions in the a Regiment, with maybe a 3rd, with people too young to send to the lines

[Frost1977]

regardless of how they did it in the time set of the game. it is some what difficult for the player to use eather historical or current system, as the numbers aren't really there with only 20 unit armys

I typicaly have in a stack 2-4 arty, 2-3 cav, and the rest mixed infantry.

basicly a half to full battalion of arty/cav and maybe 2 or 3 battalions of infantry.

it would be nice to see some sort of auto naming system where the terms use could be changed to suit the players own tastes.

[Condottiere SOG]

Only the European continent armies used 3+ Battalions with maybe a 4th in the Depots, England had normally 2 battalions in the a Regiment, with maybe a 3rd, with people too young to send to the lines

The only armies to employ 3&4 battalions on a regular basis were Russia and Turkey. Most only had two usually with only one in active service.