Moral Codes before the 10 commandments?

[conon394]

I think the point is technically since you don't know what Jesus actually precached but what people say he said. And since Paul critically preached based of his visions and the subsequent New Testament is a collection of writings by educated residents of the Roman empire Christianity is basically a ROman era mystery religion loosely claiming some connection to the Jewish scripture.

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@MaximiIian

Well that kind of religious adoption was kind of common in the Roman World. Isis worship and Mithraism being similarly and different from the source religions that inspired them.

[MaximiIian]

@MaximiIian

Well that kind of religious adoption was kind of common in the Roman World. Isis worship and Mithraism being similarly and different from the source religions that inspired them.

I'm a Hellenic pagan myself, that's something I'm aware of. In my own practice, I honor gods known to the Greeks, Celts, and Germans alongside Jupiter and all the rest.
B that's not quite what I'm talking about. Interpretatio romana/graeca, while to some extent based on the projecting of one culture's myths and views onto another's, was rarely a harmful thing. It was a tool for the Romans to understand the cultures within their empire, but they generally respected the autonomy of local cults and religious practices; and mythology was rarely viewed literally, and varied so much from place to place, that there was no "canon", and reinterpretation of mythology was more of an intellectual exercise of poets and philosophers. It wasn't much a part of the everyday religion.

There is something rather more insidious about Christianity projecting its Trinitarian views onto Jewish scripture, when those written works are seen as a solidified canon within that religion. It's not a matter of reinterpreting nebulous, non-literal, and regionally variable mythologies; it's radically reinterpreting an already-solidified set of texts without regard to the culture it came from.

[basics]

Maximilian,

What was solidified about Christianity was that Jesus Christ fulfilled God's promises on which the Jewish religion was built.

[conon394]

Maximilian,

What was solidified about Christianity was that Jesus Christ fulfilled God's promises on which the Jewish religion was built.

Well not really and only if you turn the ancient hebrew religion into a Hellenist mystery religion and then go text hunting in the OT.

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conon394,

In any case you seem to given up defending the argument that Ten Commandments were moral and why they defended slavery and - essentially allowed rather appalling brutality to non Israelites.

[basics]

conon394,

And what was there before the ancient Hebrew religion? Abel, not a Hebrew, was accounted righteous before God, why? Because Abel's offering pointed to the promised "seed" Who would come to contend with Satan for the souls of men, that "seed" being Jesus Christ. Just so with all the saints accounted righteous by God until Abraham and his people were set aside to become the Hebrew nation. Its message remained the same right up until today and will until the eve of Christ Jesus' return.

No ole friend, I am not grasping at anything rather holding fast to the Saviour Who saved me all those years ago.

[conon394]

"Abel, not a Hebrew, was accounted righteous before God, why? Because Abel's offering pointed to the promised "seed" Who would come to contend with Satan for the souls of men, that "seed" being Jesus Christ. "

Wow two tortured reading at once. The seed as some kind individual and a prophesy is bad enough - the better translation is her offspring. But not sure how a get prophecy of Jesus about an allegorical story telling you pastoralism good, farming cities wicked.

In any case you still appear to have have given up defending the commandments as a moral code.

[basics]

conon394,

Of course the Ten Commandments are a moral code and because they are so, no man could keep them and so they do nothing but condemn all mankind. The Good News is that now I have been washed in the blood of Jesus Christ, He paid in blood for my sin thus removing for all time my sin and so never can I be condemned again. So, again I say that if all mankind followed the Ten Commandments what a far better world this would be.

So why is the word seed so important in the case of Jesus Christ? The answer is quite obvious in that Jesus was not a natural seed of Eve, rather a Supernatural joining of Himself to a natural female's egg so that He could be called the " seed " of the woman just as the Father predicted. That He would have blood just like a human was integral to His coming as the price demanded for sin was blood and if He were to fulfill His role then blood was essential for Him to have. It also meant that He was 100% man as well as being 100% God. Therefore when He was born of Mary it could rightly be said that He was indeed the " seed " of the woman Eve.

[conon394]

conon394,

Of course the Ten Commandments are a moral code and because they are so, no man could keep them and so they do nothing but condemn all mankind. The Good News is that now I have been washed in the blood of Jesus Christ, He paid in blood for my sin thus removing for all time my sin and so never can I be condemned again. So, again I say that if all mankind followed the Ten Commandments what a far better world this would be.

So why is the word seed so important in the case of Jesus Christ? The answer is quite obvious in that Jesus was not a natural seed of Eve, rather a Supernatural joining of Himself to a natural female's egg so that He could be called the " seed " of the woman just as the Father predicted. That He would have blood just like a human was integral to His coming as the price demanded for sin was blood and if He were to fulfill His role then blood was essential for Him to have. It also meant that He was 100% man as well as being 100% God. Therefore when He was born of Mary it could rightly be said that He was indeed the " seed " of the woman Eve.

Sorta talking in circles as I see it.

Of course the Ten Commandments are a moral code and because they are so, no man could keep them and so they do nothing but condemn all mankind.

A moral code that approves of slavery. So the Ten commandments condemned mankind - I though your claim was your version of original sin and gods blood attainder punishment? How can they condemn all mankind since they were handed out specifically to the Israelites and not all mankind.

The Good News is that now I have been washed in the blood of Jesus Christ, He paid in blood for my sin thus removing for all time my sin and so never can I be condemned again

Seems like a bit hubris there and so what higher power binds an all powerful god to that? Either to keeping that promise or not simply also absolving people some other way as well and do think damned all creation and people for the sins of 3 individuals - pretty brutal really.

So, again I say that if all mankind followed the Ten Commandments what a far better world this would be.

But you claim to be opposed to slavery

So why is the word seed so important in the case of Jesus Christ? The answer is quite obvious in that Jesus was not a natural seed of Eve, rather a Supernatural joining of Himself to a natural female's egg so that He could be called the " seed " of the woman just as the Father predicted. That He would have blood just like a human was integral to His coming as the price demanded for sin was blood and if He were to fulfill His role then blood was essential for Him to have. It also meant that He was 100% man as well as being 100% God. Therefore when He was born of Mary it could rightly be said that He was indeed the " seed " of the woman Eve.

That is more or less new testament mysticism crawling around the Old Testament to find some words to twist. Its clear in the text the meaning is eve's offspring in a general sense there is no singular seed being discussed as some implied prophecy. Actually seem like what you need to find when it turns out Jesus got killed out hand by Romans who really cared not much at all it at the time and all those stories calming the messiah would make Israel the ruler of the world fell through - so let's see I got its the next life that will great and he really is coming back for real any day now to make that happen for believers.

It also meant that He was 100% man as well as being 100% God

So let's be clear you believe Jesus equals God and vice versa?

I just want to be clear because that makes a mockery of your attempt to deflect on slavery with the love thy neighbor line.

Because we have the perfectly horrible actions of David that were right with the Lord. The conquest, brutally cruel partial genocide and capricious execution of the defeated people of Moab and than the residual enslavement of Moab. Recall and consider in 1 Samuel 22:3 we find Moab is a perfect place to hide your parents but how does David repay that kindness...

"He struck Moab, and measured them with the line, making them to lie down on the ground; and he measured two lines to put to death, and one full line to keep alive. The Moabites became servants to David, and brought tribute." (2 Samuel 8:2)

David is right with the lord at this time so the Commandments are making the world a better place not so much. And God/Jesus did not really care about neighbors but than the everything dead at Jericho already knew that.

[basics]

conon394,

God is One Being with Three distinct Personalities, Father, Son and Holy Spirit Who can function separately from Oneanother yet can never work in opposition to the Other, why? Because Their Natures are One. It wasn't the Ten Commandments that condemned mankind, rather Adam and Eve's disobedience and disbelief which brought that about, the Commandments being given later to Israel as life's standards that God expected of them. So again I ask you to tell me where in the Ten Commandments does it say that slavery is OK? For goodness sake man, they had just been freed from slavery into a world that abounded in it because of man's fallen nature so the Ten Comandments were given to steer them away from it.

No matter what sin a person has committed that person can still be saved, be born again of the Spirit of God, if he or she repents of their sin and Jesus Christ is revealed to them. It's all a work of God, Each of His Persons playing Their part in that man or woman's rebirth.

So, instead of nitpicking, think on why people die at all? Had Adam and Eve obeyed and believed God wouldn't they still be alive just as the peoples who followed all the false gods would have been had they worshipped the true God? My question to you is, will you be right with your God and Maker the day you die?

[conon394]

So again I ask you to tell me where in the Ten Commandments does it say that slavery is OK?

I cited the passage several times - clearly if you are not to covet your neighbors slaves they are an accepted part of life and approved of by God.

For goodness sake man, they had just been freed from slavery into a world that abounded in it because of man's fallen nature so the Ten Comandments were given to steer them away from it.

Ah yes a remarkable event that leaves not a trace of evidence in Egypt. Also what fallen nature? Oh again back to Augustine

God is One Being with Three distinct Personalities, Father, Son and Holy Spirit Who can function separately from Oneanother yet can never work in opposition to the Other, why? Because Their Natures are One.

Than it was your the Triune god who was content with David's butchery of Moab? Seems a bit lacking in loving thy 'neighbor'.

So, instead of nitpicking, think on why people die at all? Had Adam and Eve obeyed and believed God wouldn't they still be alive

Given that the creation myth of the OT is clearly absolutely divorced from reality I am shall we say rather doubtful of that proposition.

just as the peoples who followed all the false gods would have been had they worshipped the true God?

Are you asking me? Or making an assertion? On the latter you just made clear you capricious god damned all of creation for the sins of adam and eve and no amount of believing or unbelief can restore that. The only question is if you pick the right version of how to believe in said deity so as to get an afterlife that is nice.

[basics]

conon394,

So, ole fella, you think the human race is OK., do you? Would you bet the lives of your wife and children on that? Is it really to be a world ruled by c394 meaning what he says goes? Isn't the cry from people of your ilk that this planet is going to the dogs very quickly and something has to be done about it fast or else? Couldn't that something be to turn to God Who created us and predicted what is going to happen rather than ignoring Him or continually insulting Him as you do?

[conon394]

conon394,

So, ole fella, you think the human race is OK., do you? Would you bet the lives of your wife and children on that? Is it really to be a world ruled by c394 meaning what he says goes? Isn't the cry from people of your ilk that this planet is going to the dogs very quickly and something has to be done about it fast or else? Couldn't that something be to turn to God Who created us and predicted what is going to happen rather than ignoring Him or continually insulting Him as you do?

Well again sorta not directly responding to what I wrote and sorta just worry about my soul preaching...

Is it really to be a world ruled by c394 meaning what he says goes?

Err I can't recall demanding the rule of the world in this thread.

Isn't the cry from people of your ilk that this planet is going to the dogs very quickly and something has to be done about it fast or else?

Ilk - really? But what ever I do agree collectively we are making poor choices on the environment if that is what you mean and also the weird rise of illiberal democracy is unfortunate. That said...

Couldn't that something be to turn to God Who created us and predicted what is going to happen rather than ignoring Him or continually insulting Him as you do?

... I fail to see how turning to capricious and cruel got of the Bible will help.

Again a god who clearly supposedly by his own hand approves of slavery and geocidal butchery thus seems not be a good moral compass. Also of course in your view damned all of creation (and has supposedly further repeatedly butched innocents over and over directly or by command) for the sins of three individuals and only allowed - eventually - a convoluted way out of that. That is however the the opiate of the masses promise of a better life after you die but doing nothing at for you in the supposedly damned by god world.

Also I can't help but notice it is evangelicals in the US for example who professes the same reborn faith you claim who are among the leading and solid backers of policies in the US I oppose so then I find your god even less appealing.

Couldn't that something be to turn to God Who created us

Not according the evidence but ignoring that lots of stories lots of contenders.

Besides he is as I noted a poor financial advisor and hygiene advisor as well.

[Ludicus]

A moral code that approves of slavery... How can they condemn all mankind since they were handed out specifically to the Israelites and not all mankind.

Bingo. Some would say that the Jews had no problem with slavery, they just didn't like being on the receiving end.That said, I admire basics's love story with the unknown God.
Guess who wrote,

Fodder and whip and loads for an ass;
food, correction, and work for a slave.
Make a slave work and he will look for his rest;
let his hands be idle and he will seek to be free.
Yoke and harness are a cure for stubbornness;
and for a refractory slave, punishment in the stocks.
Force him to work that he be not idle,for idleness is the teacher of much mischief.
Give him work to do such as befits him;but if he fails to obey you, load him with chains

[basics]

conon394,

How is God poor about hygiene and finance?

Ludicus,

How is He unknown?

[Ludicus]

Ludicus,

How is He unknown?

Let's say that God is just a word for the unknown.Still, what I admire you the most is your faith.Keep your faith

[basics]

Ludicus,

Knowing God personally is the greatest experience of my life and so there is not much chance of me wanting that altered. So, thank you for your kind words.

[Ludicus]

Ludicus,Knowing God personally is the greatest experience of my life and so there is not much chance of me wanting that altered. So, thank you for your kind words.

You are welcome.
On the one hand, I know there is no harm in discussing matters of faith, in fact I find it interesting to hear and read much of what is written or said. On the other hand, I don't criticize my family members who are religious, it can be offensive depending on what that talk looks like. With age, I have learned to avoid discussing matters of faith. I only do so when faith is used by sectarian religious groups that actively and abusively interfere in government policy.
If you allow me to put it this way, faith transcends reason, in the sense that it transcends the possible limits of experience. I tend to agree with Kierkegaard; the believe on God requires a leap of faith.

[basics]

Ludicus,

Yes, indeed it does require a gigantic leap of faith and it is God Who supplies not only the faith but the conditions to get there. The big question is that with all the other faiths around the world which one is the true one, which one delivers the promises of God, which one really changes the heart from unbelief to belief?

[conon394]

Forgot to reply

conon394,

How is God poor about hygiene and finance?

I was quipping - Thus I do realise the passage in Matthew I will cite is a parable and the one in Mark a message about your soul vs worldly concerns but taken at face value they do amount to my claim.

First Mark 7 (ff)

OK as I said I realize this all about the thought process of an apocalyptical mystery religion writing about Jesus (who knows what he really said) who both expect the return (that of the now executed Jesus) directly and want to toss most jewish laws out the window but taken literally its bad hygiene advice. Washing your hands before eating and or retuning from the market is good practice. Jesus as related looks like a bit of jerk on this one. He is God right so he created germs and bacteria so should know washing your hands is a net positive if you plan to hang around on the mortal coil.

Bad finance is via the parable of the talents re Mathew.

Now take this lightly in that I do not mean any insult - but most christians do not have a good grasp of the classical money systems and the nature of the economies and the investment opportunities. So again it is a parable and it not about money but at face value its bad advice. Also the fact Matthew uses such fantastic sums kind says we are looking at some well educated elite anonymous authors... anyway.

So a talent at the time was silver and reckoned as 6000 Roman Denarius and or Greek Drachma. This is kind a Frankenstein system. The Roman coinage system is really different in origin involving bronze coinage and Roman pounds but Alexander basically made the east use the Athenian system of Greek coinage (well except for the Ptolemy's in Egypt who had a different system to capture siver on a forced bad exchange). But in any case the Romans were rolling easy adopting their system to the east to make the wheels go round. The coins of Rome at the time in question were good - not as good as what Athens and Alexander had minted but well over 90% silver and would ring true - say on average 95%.

I am going to use examples from Athens because the system is more or less the same - but I have much better command of the details of the economy. The broad outlines do not change and in Roman Egypt preserved documents still use the same terminology Athens developed for finance a bit after the nominal days of Jesus.

So what we have is a very wealthy man leaving seemingly one of his residences and a lot money behind to invested. To be blunt somebody with 3 slaves a eight talents in silver to be handed over to them as a investment is rich. I mean really rich. The story necessitates he owns other property as well and of course probably traveled with other slaves is also implied and had other moneys or bank notes to to spend...

Now I have noticed a lot notes in Bibles when they exist will suggest that one Roman silver denarius was a day's wage for manual labor at this time when trying to give a sense of the wealth involved. That is a bit iffy. I prefer to consider the Athenian 'Flute Girl' now demand for the skilled performer was such that Athens limited the price for a nights performance to 2 drachmas. Now if she turned a trick as well or two 3 drachmas is a reasonable take if she commanded the bid limit for the music or dance or acrobatics covered in the first part. Thus one should remember in this story Matthew tells the wealth is substernal. 16000 working days for a skilled worker is on the table - 43 years (but longer because you you can't work every day). Obviously a career no Flute Girl is ever likely to have in the classical world. I could do it for day laborer but of course with any could data point it only looks more of fantasy.

But back to the point the other aspect is while a the interval of the masters return is not stated but supposedly long the results are financially increible. Two slaves double the money and one slave chose to simply sit on it. The last is castigated. But he should not be.

Investing at the time involve two very different types of loans what the Athenians would have called maritime and the landed or in the city. And because they produced some fairly famous orators who were also lawyers we have a sense of what that means (and a ton of recodes set in stone).

Also note there are not CDs or or such or money market accounts and not banks with deposits backed by the state if they collapse.

Now a landed or in the city loan is something like 1% to maybe 4% return per year. Safe because you are buying and leasing land or financing a shop etc. There assets you can watch and go to court if things go sideways. And they can just less of then other type of loan.

Assuming nothing goes we are talking 20 years at the best return at around 4% to double you money, quite a bit longer with problems and say years at 3% or less.

Now a maritime loan as you might expect is financing an overseas trade venture (or a caravan) or more generally over time any really high risk 'venture capital' thing. Risk is high and you the financier eat the loss if it happens and it did - unless you can pay for really good lawyers and have somebody in a jurisdiction you can sue. 12.5% is a good return for something with risk but not insane. But thats per trip. So you really are looking maybe two uses of your capital per year maybe three but I going to go with two. In any case you chuck in if you happen to be someplace near a major slave market and also near a major consumer of slaves (a mine say) to maybe get the similar profits with slave gangs. Also really risky loaning people money for ransomed captured or kidnapped persons but again real high risk.

In any case let's stick with 2 loans a year and no problems (that not a reality but whatever) at 12.5 percent you could double money in 6/7 years. No problems is doing a lot lifting in this. But such risky investing is the only way the story makes sense. A long time is not the life time required by safe investment.

Thus of the eight Talents almost 90% was invested in high risk affairs (or the parable is nonsensical). That the 3rd slave kept a bit over 10% in cash was prudent and the kind of advice any sane financial advisor would give. Inflation was low at the time and Roman silver solid. A residual cash position makes sense. So taken at face value Matthew is dealing out poor financial advice.

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Yes, indeed it does require a gigantic leap of faith and it is God Who supplies not only the faith but the conditions to get there. The big question is that with all the other faiths around the world which one is the true one, which one delivers the promises of God, which one really changes the heart from unbelief to belief?

Well you are assuming A god, and than your god so since its a leap of faith any mystery religion offering a payoff in the afterlife seems more or less equally valid. Also your god is pretty erratin taking the OT and NT together so not sure I'd bet on his promises.

[basics]

conon394,

A long story about a subject that you completely miss. It's all figures of speech about spreading the Word of God made up on a subject that people would understand. It's about doing what Jesus was doing rather than shutting it all up as some were doing. " Go out into all the world and preach the Gospel " is the message, why? For without the Gospel there is no salvation.