HISTORICAL ACCURACY

[huscarl 69]

Just curious if factions in this game will be historicaly accurate as in real life or historicaly possible eg: scotland can't build high period heavy calvary this was because scotland was poor not because they didn't have the technology it would be funny in my opinion to conquer most of the world and you still can't build high period plate armour heavy calvary.

keep up the good work guys

[OdinX]

Well, you should ask this in the FAQ thread, but I guess this is ok. Anyways, everything will be as history says it is in 1080; let me repeat that again, 1080. Now, the reason for this is because this game is made so that the player, given the resources at start are supposed to take them and basically reach a predetermined goal (e.g. Capture Jerusalem, Destroy faction, etc.). This will still the same, however, we're planning to make faction goals more realistic as to what factions at those times would actually set out to do. So as far as historical accuracy goes, it is probably the most historical mod/game you'll see to date.

[sirfiggin]

so no cannons for byzantium?

[AnthoniusII]

so no cannons for byzantium?

"Byzantium"/Official name:Roman Empire...
Cannons:The first cannons were part of the Roman army in late 14th century!Their origin was italian...
But Romans never developted "native" troops with artilery or hand guns!
But large numbers of latin mercenaries armed with such weapons were part of "roman" armies...

[S-te-Fan]

Ah... an tech tree like in empire would fit sooo well in this mod.

[Ettrick Archer]

Small bit from me on the Scottish military, if its of any help/interest

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...urn_Battle.jpg

Small picture, that, but if you look closely you will see Scottish heavy cavalry. The fact is, the Scottish elite could - and did - keep up with European fashions regarding armour and weaponry among most other things, including education. Most often than not, Scottish troop types were interchangeable with English ones (and this includes soldiers drawn from the Highlands). The primary reason why Scotland never used much heavy cavalry is one of sensibility; the auld enemy England had a much larger population and was therefore capable of fielding much larger amounts of cavalry. Therefore it made sense to focus on spear and pike infantry rather than taking on the hopeless cause of going against much greater numbers of horse. As a side note, there wasn't much a tradition of cavalry warfare in the highlands and islands, much to do with the terrain being largely unsuitable for it. Nobles would have been well mounted for transport and prestige reasons. Small and large horses were available in the highlands and lowlands; while larger varieties were not always bred on a large scale, they were certainly available, but not always preferable or indeed affordable, depending on who was in the market for one.

If you look here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Dunbar_(1296)
that's the battle of Dunbar, although in that instance it was largely to do with more experienced English mounted troops out-manouvering the Scots. (I'm being irrespective of time periods here, but I sense that isn't the point). Scotland continued to operate cavalry throughout its military history. The border reivers are a particularly good - if dark and often unofficial - example of mounted warfare between England and Scotland.

If you want a sense of Scottish and English armies around the times of the Scottish wars of independence, relevent books by Osprey and Chris Brown are very good. Chris Brown in particular points out that most 'battles' of the wars of independence (that is to say, sieges and skirmishes) were fought by men at arms, and there is no reason to suppose that by this period Scottish and English archers used different kinds of bows. Actually, as their inclusion in the French king's Scots Guard does hint, Scottish archers could be highly skilled and renowned. Again this is looked over by a history which focuses on England's admittedly strong example. But the famous longbow victories are famous because they were unusual in that archers - lay people! - were instrumental in gaining the victory. Froissart would have to gloss over that. And again, Scotland could hardly hope to match England man-for-man or, in the early period, for experience. Maths was against them. (I rarely find maths to be on my side, personally, but Maths is my 'auld enemy'!)

It could also be argued that Scotland was very rarely 'poor' - that opinion is a victorian tradition, backed by a few biased (or incorrectly translated/interpreted) medieval sources and is largely disregarded by modern historians. It would also be going too far to say that Scotland was incredibly wealthy, but to look on the great abbeys and castles of medieval Scotland is testament to the fact that that kingdom was a prosperious, if small, member of Christendom. Again, I heartily recommend Chris Brown, particularly 'Bannockburn 1314' for anyone interested in medieval warfare.

All things considered, Scotland performed very well in medieval times and later (I am biased, I know, but recent re-takes on academic Scottish history have turned many old gloomy conceptions on their heads). Surviving at all so long, especially so often against the might and influence of England, is a small miracle in itself. Swedish and French forces both had Scotsmen for 'commanders-in-chiefs' at some time (John Stewart, Second Earl of Buchan and Alexander Leslie, First Earl of of Leven, as Constable and Field Marshall respectively) and by the later stages of the first war of independence, Scottish forces were invading northern England with near impunity; though with a regrettable level of violence and pillaging, a sad norm of the time. There are too many cases of true Scottish military history defying tradition to write here; whether its having a 3:1 ratio of Scottish officers to Swedish ones in the Swedish army at one point in the 17th century, the acts of Scots in the Hundred Years War, or the ascendance of the Scots Navy under James IV, participation in the crusades, or many other examples. But its worth keeping in mind that even the small can succeed, and even the great, falter.

As often in war, you learn many examples from your opponents, as well as your allies; and one can hardly argue that the English and French set poor examples of western european medieval warfare! Thank heavens, anyway, that we live in somewhat more peaceful times.

You will excuse my tangeant! I am very much looking forward to this mod, best of luck with it to the team. And as I am now about to burry myself in exam preparation I will also wish everyone a happy summer!

(For the record, one might take a look at the Scottish army in Stainless Steel 6.0 - generally accurrate enough, but with some tartan embellishments and perhaps anachronistic highland units. In fact, that doesn't gall me to a great degree, as being a game its nice to have some variety in units and skins, and is, in a way, reflective in its own way. I suggest the DotS team go with their hearts on that one!)

-Steven

[Mr.Marmot]

Just a question:

Will chivalric knights be part of the factions they were part in real life?

Article:
Chivalric orders are orders of knights that were created by European monarchs in imitation of the military orders of the Crusades. After the crusades, the memory of these crusading military orders became idealised and romanticised, resulting in the late medieval notion of chivalry , and is reflected in the Arthurian romances of the time. Such orders were formed of knights in plate armor who fought for their monarchs and gained fame and honor in every battle fought.

In England
Order of the Garter Chivalric Knights
24 leaders, unlimited knight population

In France
Order of St.Mitchel Chivalric Knights
Uncertain number of leaders and unlimited knight population

In Hungary
Order of St.Goerge Chivalric Knights
50 leaders, unlimited knight population

In Burgundy
Order if the Golden Feece Chivalric Knigh
Uncertain number of leaders and unlimited knight population

[Baron Thunder-ten-tronckh]

The order of the Garter was Edward III, no? I thought DotS started a bit before the mid 14th century.

[huscarl 69]

well done ettrick archer I hope dots take in to consideration your info im so sick of scotland being overlooked as some weak poor faction sole purpouse is to add a bit of gamepay to the game because this was simply not the case scotland was home to legendary fierce warriors who crushed there enemys even when they were outnumberd and they may not have been as rich as the english but they did master the same technoligy as there european counterparts obvioulsy they did not share the same wealth as the major powers so there for did not field the same amout of heavy calavry and for other reasons as ettrick archer metioned earlier so please dots dont't neglect or discriminate this faction. keep up the good work guys and hopfuly you can release some sort of preview soon because god knows when this mod will be released.

[Mr.Marmot]

Dots begins in 1080 as far as I know.

[Archaon]

well done ettrick archer I hope dots take in to consideration your info im so sick of scotland being overlooked as some weak poor faction sole purpouse is to add a bit of gamepay to the game because this was simply not the case scotland was home to legendary fierce warriors who crushed there enemys even when they were outnumberd and they may not have been as rich as the english but they did master the same technoligy as there european counterparts obvioulsy they did not share the same wealth as the major powers so there for did not field the same amout of heavy calavry and for other reasons as ettrick archer metioned earlier so please dots dont't neglect or discriminate this faction. keep up the good work guys and hopfuly you can release some sort of preview soon because god knows when this mod will be released.

The Border Reaver (maker of Kingdom Of the Scotts mod) was in charge of the Scottish faction for DotS (before making his mod) and as far as i remember the historians in DotS team did not neglect the Scotts upon BR's departure. I can informatively advise that the Scotts will be represented better then they were in vanilla.

[Hengest]

Heh, I wondered who the hell you were for a minute... lol
Hi mate

[Archaon]

eX Sounds Like Killing was put there for a purpose lol
Miss me!?

[huscarl 69]

thats good to know archaon because vanilla representation of scotland is quite depressing
scotland was so much more in real life and hopefuly dots can give scotland the glory it so desperately deserves so for gods sake let scotland build high period plate armour heavy calvary its so ridiculous they can build early and feudal style knights but they never master plate armour heavy calvary.

[Mr.Marmot]

So Scotland and England will have border reavers?

[Archaon]

So Scotland and England will have border reavers?

Pun intended or a simple misunderstanding?

[huscarl 69]

hey guys i found a good unit source for scotland on wikeipedia called lochaber axe here's a breif description
The Lochaber axe was a Scottish war axe that came into use around 1300. The name of the weapon derives from Lochaber, an area in the western Scottish Highlands, as the weapon was employed principally by the Scottish highlanders, who (generally without any cavalry of their own) required armament against cavalry.
The axe itself is similar to tools used with crops, such as the scythe, which is designed for reaping. The hook on the back bears a passing resemblance to a shepherd's crook, although within agriculture a smaller hook such as this may have been used in order to lift and carry tied bundles of a harvested crop or pull down tree branches. It is possible, then, that earlier Lochaber axes, like the billhook, served a dual purpose as both weapons and farming tools.

my source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lochaber_axe

it would be realy cool for scotland to have a polearm unit keep up the good work guys i know this mod is going to be great.

[Mr.Marmot]

Simple misunderstanding.

[Hengest]

eX Sounds Like Killing was put there for a purpose lol
Miss me!?

[Plow5655]

why not have an AOR similar to RTR... that way you use the units of whatever lands you conquer.