Completely new and revised remodelled Preussens gloria (V1.2) 27/5/2012

[Megasalexandros]

I think your Lange Kerls are simply perfect, even someone picky as I cannot find any single fault. Probably the most well-made Prussian unit for ETW in this community. I congratulate you.
The only thing not historical is that they are actually seeing action!
The video you've posted is a good one too. The uniforms of both men and the officer seem to be well made. Just the march music is too modern, that's Piefke's Preussens Gloria from late 19th century.
The location is also very good. It is Luisenplatz in Potsdam.

To hear that from you is really amazing!
If you check the kaunitz project thread for NTW , in my latest post there i have uploaded some "updated" models with altered hat shapes for both cavalry and infantry troopers of PG.
You can also see the, latest latest version of the prussian musketeers hat, i think that is the best that i could come up with till now.

[Herr Doctor]

When are you planning to realise new version? I damn want to send those poor big guys into battle.

[A_Menzel]

To hear that from you is really amazing!
If you check the kaunitz project thread for NTW , in my latest post there i have uploaded some "updated" models with altered hat shapes for both cavalry and infantry troopers of PG.
You can also see the, latest latest version of the prussian musketeers hat, i think that is the best that i could come up with till now.

As I wrote in a PM, it is impossible for me to tell you how it should be shaped. I gave the white trim to the newly shaped cuirassier's hat, and they look perfect.
I wish Adolph Menzel drew an early infantry tricorn as well, not just early cavalry tricorn in his series of coloured plates. He drew early musketeers only in rough drawings and engravings. Perhaps I should keep looking.


Hello, Herr Doktor!
I do not think he will include the lange Kerls in this Preussens Gloria mod, because that unit is from the reign of Frederick William I, not the reign of Frederick II, which the mod is intended for. It is actually already included in a way, because the 6th Regiment or the Guard Grenadier was what became of those lange Kerls under Frederick the Great.

[Herr Doctor]

I do not think he will include the lange Kerls in this Preussens Gloria mod, because that unit is from the reign of Frederick William I, not the reign of Frederick II, which the mod is intended for. It is actually already included in a way, because the 6th Regiment or the Guard Grenadier was what became of those lange Kerls under Frederick the Great.

Ah I see, thanks.

May be later the version with early Prussian units that Megasalexandros working now for IS mod? Would be great to see some dynamical changes based on technology research.

[Megasalexandros]

As I wrote in a PM, it is impossible for me to tell you how it should be shaped. I gave the white trim to the newly shaped cuirassier's hat, and they look perfect.
I wish Adolph Menzel drew an early infantry tricorn as well, not just early cavalry tricorn in his series of coloured plates. He drew early musketeers only in rough drawings and engravings. Perhaps I should keep looking.


Hello, Herr Doktor!
I do not think he will include the lange Kerls in this Preussens Gloria mod, because that unit is from the reign of Frederick William I, not the reign of Frederick II, which the mod is intended for. It is actually already included in a way, because the 6th Regiment or the Guard Grenadier was what became of those lange Kerls under Frederick the Great.

I have also created or rather edited a further new style of hat for the cavalry but iam certain is not correct, i think that the above hat should be used for the dragoons too but without the upper middle pompon? Iam not sure at all

Ah I see, thanks.

May be later the version with early Prussian units that Megasalexandros working now for IS mod? Would be great to see some dynamical changes based on technology research.

I can certainly upload the lange kerls as a separate unit ,but as Menzel said is for an earlier period, iam yet to create the drummers for eg, but if you want them , i can send them to you

[Kaunitz]

Hm. A_Menzel, do you have some information on Menzels' sources? All that I could find out based on an internet research and google books is that he based his work on original Prussian uniforms in the Zeughaus Berlin (the uniform collection of Friedrich Wilhelm III?). However, the uniforms there stem from 1786. Now, the only reason why they are supposed to fit to the seven years war is because there hasn't been any new uniform regulation between the Seven Years War and 1786. However, I think that the cut as well as other "non-regulated" details might have changed. I also think that the style of the tricorn has changed independently from any regulation, simply because european fashion changed. In fact the hat that you and megasalexandros' have defended so much fits perfectly to ca. 1786, but it doesn't show up in a single source in the 1750s.

http://www.militaria.at/Book.aspx?bo...00&Language=de . Also take a look at the tricorn on the 7th preview picture (SYW uniform plate) from the left

[A_Menzel]

Hm. A_Menzel, do you have some information on Menzels' sources? All that I could find out based on an internet research and google books is that he based his work on original Prussian uniforms in the Zeughaus Berlin (the uniform collection of Friedrich Wilhelm III?). However, the uniforms there stem from 1786. Now, the only reason why they are supposed to fit to the seven years war is because there hasn't been any new uniform regulation between the Seven Years War and 1786. However, I think that the cut as well as other "non-regulated" details might have changed. I also think that the style of the tricorn has changed independently from any regulation, simply because european fashion changed. In fact the hat that you and megasalexandros' have defended so much fits perfectly to ca. 1786, but it doesn't show up in a single source in the 1750s.

http://www.militaria.at/Book.aspx?bo...00&Language=de . Also take a look at the tricorn on the 7th preview picture (SYW uniform plate) from the left

No I don't have Menzel's sources, at least not at hand now. I have what Hans Bleckwenn used, but I do not think I am obliged to list all, like thirteen pages of them here.
Why do we need to defend anything? Are we under attack?
I hope that the research could be easily accomplished by just surfing the internet. I have been reading so many pages of books. I could not make any textures last weekend because of that.
And thank you for the link very much. I have that book, two sets already. I also know about how the Menzel's plates were made. I have the complete set of them, not the digitalised ones but the re-printed ones.
I would very much appreciate it if you could at least read what I wrote carefully. Yeah, I know you are busy, but I beg you to read at least what I wrote in your thread and my last posting here, just those two.

Oh please Megasalexandros, help me! I want to finish my 26th! Only the drummer is left, but it is the most difficut part!

[Megasalexandros]

Hm. A_Menzel, do you have some information on Menzels' sources? All that I could find out based on an internet research and google books is that he based his work on original Prussian uniforms in the Zeughaus Berlin (the uniform collection of Friedrich Wilhelm III?). However, the uniforms there stem from 1786. Now, the only reason why they are supposed to fit to the seven years war is because there hasn't been any new uniform regulation between the Seven Years War and 1786. However, I think that the cut as well as other "non-regulated" details might have changed. I also think that the style of the tricorn has changed independently from any regulation, simply because european fashion changed. In fact the hat that you and megasalexandros' have defended so much fits perfectly to ca. 1786, but it doesn't show up in a single source in the 1750s.

http://www.militaria.at/Book.aspx?bo...00&Language=de . Also take a look at the tricorn on the 7th preview picture (SYW uniform plate) from the left

hmm no i havent defended anything fervently , the hats that i originally used for the PG mod are of a later period probably at the final or mid stages of the seven years war, but even the earlier hat that have modified ,iam not certain if it fits the Prussian cut, because Menzel , knoetel , etc are not depicting hats that look exactly like the Hapsburg hats, i think that the latest hat that i have send to you in the Kaunitz thread is the best that i can , in accordance with a variety of sources including Osprey's depiction.
And because you bring up the issue of the hat not being the same with the periods pictures, firstly iam sure that eventhough the hats were almost the same in every nation according to the period, they were not EXACTLY the same, and also if i had to go for the common style of the era or the hat that is depicted by Persons who've searched the matter and hat contemporary material, like menzel or knoetel , i would go with the historian-artists side.
Having said all that, i dont think that it is such a critical issue(i mean the hat shape ) to cause so much debate,
CA 's hats had nothing to do i think with the modified ones

EDIT, forgotten to mention that me and A_MENZEL havent yet decided which is the better looking hat!
I think that my own is quite good he thinks that it is a bit off and awkward!
So thats the problem, i think that the contradicting sources are the problem.

No I don't have Menzel's sources, at least not at hand now. I have what Hans Bleckwenn used, but I do not think I am obliged to list all, like thirteen pages of them here.
Why do we need to defend anything? Are we under attack?
I hope that the research could be easily accomplished by just surfing the internet. I have been reading so many pages of books. I could not make any textures last weekend because of that.
And thank you for the link very much. I have that book, two sets already. I also know about how the Menzel's plates were made. I have the complete set of them, not the digitalised ones but the re-printed ones.
I would very much appreciate it if you could at least read what I wrote carefully. Yeah, I know you are busy, but I beg you to read at least what I wrote in your thread and my last posting here, just those two.

Oh please Megasalexandros, help me! I want to finish my 26th! Only the drummer is left, but it is the most difficut part!

What do you need from me Menzel, tell me and ill certainly help

[Kaunitz]

There's really no need to tease, A_Menzel. I don't doubt that you're an expert on the Prussian armys' uniforms. I just wanted to know I you have any information what Menzel has based his uniform plates on?
I've read what you've written in the Kaunitz Project, and I've also answered you: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...7#post11313387 You said that the hat changed in the course of the Seven Years War and that Menzel has also drawn earlier types. I then tried to determine the shape of the hat in the 1750s, based on contemporary artwork, and asked if one really has to restrict one's researches on contemporary poor quality uniform plates that show the prussian army in particular. Instead I put up to discussion that there were no army-specific tricorns (what's a "hapspurg hat"?), so that one can use any 1750s period art as a source in order to determine the most likely/typical shape of the tricorn.

Nobody has to defend anything. I was just innocently wondering what the Prussian hat that is so wide-spread across the whole horse and musket hobby sector is based on, because I've never seen it in any period artwork. And the answer I got was not satisfying for me: Menzel, Osprey. Should we believe Menzel (who might have mistaken an original 1786 hat for a Seven Years War hat?) or period artwork, which shows the same characteristic tricorn shape over and over again (e.g. take a look at Pietro Longhis works of the 1750s, or William Hoggarths late works)? And indeed the prussian hat that dominates the hobby-sector is characteristic for the late 1770s and the 1780s (example from 1786 which shows exactly the hat that is very often given to SYW Prussians). Never ever will you be able to find this type of tricorn in a painting that stems from the 1750s or early 1760s. The only way that I can imagine such a tricorn in the 1750s is that soldiers might have loosened the threads that were binding the brims of their hat in order to have more shadows for their ears. (experiment required )

But I'll leave it there and shut up. There's no need to quarrel over tricorns. I'm happy with everything that megasalexandros comes up with. If I can keep the hats that megasalexandros has created based on artwork, I'm a very happy man.

[Megasalexandros]

There's really no need to tease, A_Menzel. I don't doubt that you're an expert on the Prussian armys' uniforms. I just wanted to know I you have any information what Menzel has based his uniform plates on?
I've read what you've written in the Kaunitz Project, and I've also answered you: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...7#post11313387 You said that the hat changed in the course of the Seven Years War and that Menzel has also drawn earlier types. I then tried to determine the shape of the hat in the 1750s, based on contemporary artwork, and asked if one really has to restrict one's researches on contemporary poor quality uniform plates that show the prussian army in particular. Instead I put up to discussion that there were no army-specific tricorns, so that one can use any 1750s period art as a source in order to determine the most likely/typical shape of the tricorn.

Nobody has to defend anything. I was just innocently wondering what the Prussian hat that is so wide-spread across the whole horse and musket hobby sector is based on, because I've never seen it in any period artwork. And the answer I got was not satisfying for me: Menzel, Osprey. Should we believe Menzel (who might have mistaken an original 1786 hat for a Seven Years War hat?) or period artwork?

But I'll leave it there and shut up. There's no need to quarrel over tricorns. I'm happy with everything that megasalexandros comes up with. If I can keep the hats that megasalexandros has created based on artwork, I'm a very happy man.

Indeed thats not a reason to argue, i mean the tricorns.
Thats the final thing that i have to say about them , the thing is that firstly the artist that i have mentioned dont always agree with each other, because probably even they werent able to evaluate properly the material they had and that is largely destroyed by the war, also there are many many depictions that A_menzel send me which agree quite a lot with the "Hapsburg style" tricorn used also by the Prussians but with the characteristic pompons, there are also sources like Knoetel and Menzel which are mentioned quite a lot that depict a style which is a bit distinct from the habsburg style ,being used by the Prussians before 1756 or so, there is also the osprey depictions which me and A_MENZEL think are a quite good way to compromise for the lack of proper understanding of the involvement of the hat during the reign of Frederick the great.
The bottom line is that the artists had their flaws and inaccuracies and were dealing with 2d depictions and there comes our problem, often sources -paitings that are depicting a certain style of hat from 2 or more angles, are not correct when you put them in 3d because simply you cannot create the frontal part in such a way that it will still look correct from the side!!
And in my opinion thats the reason of the debate, i would have agreed with contemporary painting that were DEPICTING PRUSSIANS , from a certain period, and with a CERTAIN style of hat being repeated over and over, but thats not the case, the final verdict is that you compare sources, chronologies, you see which is the most repeated partern , and probably go for it

Thats all about tricorns.

[Herr Doctor]

I can certainly upload the lange kerls as a separate unit ,but as Menzel said is for an earlier period, iam yet to create the drummers for eg, but if you want them , i can send them to you

Would be very nice indeed. Also any other early units too because I am a big fun of Friedrich I/Friedrich Wilhelm I epoch.

[A_Menzel]

Thank you Megasalexandros very much. All I needed was time, and a break from this endless discussions.
I wanted to work on textures, and I know you have lots of other things to do, like the fusilier cap.
I finished IR26, the heroes of Leuthen. I hope the tassels on the officer's coat are clear enough. They are still worn by German generals even today.



The pompon on the officer's hat should be gold, and it has been corrected later. The Ringkragen is messed up, but I do not know why yet. The pompon on the hat of the NCO (flag bearer) is also messed up. I think you changed the pompon when you changed the shape of the hat.

Although I do like your new hat, I think I will revert back to your first hat, and base the textures on those. I tested the details like trim and pompon on those, and I'd rather go on than correct them all, and I still have not found out how to correct them for the new hat.
And as I have been saying from the first place, your first tricorn is not far off for later SYW period. We do not know when exactly it changed, could be around 1760 according to some sources.
Another thing is that the coat is rather late type with higher and wider lapels, which was worn usually closed at the top, whereas it was usually worn open in earlier period as it seems. As I told you in a pm, the coat could be started to be worn closed before the shape of the hat changed like in those period drawings from 1757/58 I sent you.
No, I am sorry, I have absolutely no intention of starting the discussion again, but I just wanted to let you know how I am going to make my textures.

[gary]

Thank you Megasalexandros very much. All I needed was time, and a break from this endless discussions.
I wanted to work on textures, and I know you have lots of other things to do, like the fusilier cap.
I finished IR26, the heroes of Leuthen. I hope the tassels on the officer's coat are clear enough. They are still worn by German generals even today.



The pompon on the officer's hat should be gold, and it has been corrected later. The Ringkragen is messed up, but I do not know why yet. The pompon on the hat of the NCO (flag bearer) is also messed up. I think you changed the pompon when you changed the shape of the hat.

Although I do like your new hat, I think I will revert back to your first hat, and base the textures on those. I tested the details like trim and pompon on those, and I'd rather go on than correct them all, and I still have not found out how to correct them for the new hat.
And as I have been saying from the first place, your first tricorn is not far off for later SYW period. We do not know when exactly it changed, could be around 1760 according to some sources.
Another thing is that the coat is rather late type with higher and wider lapels, which was worn usually closed at the top, whereas it was usually worn open in earlier period as it seems. As I told you in a pm, the coat could be started to be worn closed before the shape of the hat changed like in those period drawings from 1757/58 I sent you.
No, I am sorry, I have absolutely no intention of starting the discussion again, but I just wanted to let you know how I am going to make my textures.

wow mate well done great looking work... ok on the hat thing... does it really matter if the tricorn is out by a few inches? as to be honest i never really look i have no time when they are in the thick of battle lol.

[Megasalexandros]

Thank you Megasalexandros very much. All I needed was time, and a break from this endless discussions.
I wanted to work on textures, and I know you have lots of other things to do, like the fusilier cap.
I finished IR26, the heroes of Leuthen. I hope the tassels on the officer's coat are clear enough. They are still worn by German generals even today.



The pompon on the officer's hat should be gold, and it has been corrected later. The Ringkragen is messed up, but I do not know why yet. The pompon on the hat of the NCO (flag bearer) is also messed up. I think you changed the pompon when you changed the shape of the hat.

Although I do like your new hat, I think I will revert back to your first hat, and base the textures on those. I tested the details like trim and pompon on those, and I'd rather go on than correct them all, and I still have not found out how to correct them for the new hat.
And as I have been saying from the first place, your first tricorn is not far off for later SYW period. We do not know when exactly it changed, could be around 1760 according to some sources.
Another thing is that the coat is rather late type with higher and wider lapels, which was worn usually closed at the top, whereas it was usually worn open in earlier period as it seems. As I told you in a pm, the coat could be started to be worn closed before the shape of the hat changed like in those period drawings from 1757/58 I sent you.
No, I am sorry, I have absolutely no intention of starting the discussion again, but I just wanted to let you know how I am going to make my textures.

Yes i think we have exhausted the issue of the hat shape , nothing more to say and i dont think it matters so much, in any case we can create a different style according to tastes and use whatever we like personally which is the best choice i guess.
Really really great textures Menzel, i want them! As for the pompons, whats exactly the problem i dont know i think both the previous and the current pompons have the same shape and were created with the "sphere" option in milkshape 3d so they should have the same texture application.
And the ringkragen should be correct cause you are using the same model i presume,

wow mate well done great looking work... ok on the hat thing... does it really matter if the tricorn is out by a few inches? as to be honest i never really look i have no time when they are in the thick of battle lol.

Yeah i think we have talked it over too much, but i also think that the issue is solved now

Would be very nice indeed. Also any other early units too because I am a big fun of Friedrich I/Friedrich Wilhelm I epoch.

I will send them over to you via pm, but note that they are not implemented in the game i only have the files (textures and models) so you will have to implement them yourself either as new unit ,or replacing something else. You will also lack the drummers because i havent made them yet

[A_Menzel]

wow mate well done great looking work... ok on the hat thing... does it really matter if the tricorn is out by a few inches? as to be honest i never really look i have no time when they are in the thick of battle lol.

Thank you always for the complement. Yeah, I agree with you, but you are the one who first inspired me to give details to textures with your mod. No, that's not a complaint, but wanted to show some appreciation.

Yes i think we have exhausted the issue of the hat shape , nothing more to say and i dont think it matters so much, in any case we can create a different style according to tastes and use whatever we like personally which is the best choice i guess.
Really really great textures Menzel, i want them! As for the pompons, whats exactly the problem i dont know i think both the previous and the current pompons have the same shape and were created with the "sphere" option in milkshape 3d so they should have the same texture application.
And the ringkragen should be correct cause you are using the same model i presume,

I solved the issue with the Ringkragen. It was just I somehow mixed up the old models with new ones when I was replacing new hats.
By the way, do you recognize the face of the officer? It shows better in the third picture in my last post. I gave the officer of this good regiment the face of a famous General, or rather a brilliant field marshall. I will give this regiment to you if you give me the correct answer.
No, I'll give it to you anyway.

As for the pompon, the texture application has changed as you can see here.

I want it to look like this one on the old hat, but it doesn't on the new one. I have tested several patterns, but failed. You can see one of the falied test results in the first one in the three pictures in my last post, kind of horizontal stripes.

[Megasalexandros]

Thank you always for the complement. Yeah, I agree with you, but you are the one who first inspired me to give details to textures with your mod. No, that's not a complaint, but wanted to show some appreciation.


I solved the issue with the Ringkragen. It was just I somehow mixed up the old models with new ones when I was replacing new hats.
By the way, do you recognize the face of the officer? It shows better in the third picture in my last post. I gave the officer of this good regiment the face of a famous General, or rather a brilliant field marshall. I will give this regiment to you if you give me the correct answer.
No, I'll give it to you anyway.

As for the pompon, the texture application has changed as you can see here.

I want it to look like this one on the old hat, but it doesn't on the new one. I have tested several patterns, but failed. You can see one of the falied test results in the first one in the three pictures in my last post, kind of horizontal stripes.

Hmm could he be keith, i cant see him properly from that picture


As for the pompons, do you have that problem with the new infantry hats as well or only for the banner bearers? I could have used the geosphere instead of sphere option but is it a problem of the banner bearer only please confirm..?



'

And a question for you , do you recognize that early Prussian cavalry regiment?

I have modified a WANGRIN model in order to make it and the texture i used as a base was made by FLIKITOS

Ill need help though i want you to tell me which hat do you think is the better choice for the early Prussians, both cavalry and infantry
Iam giving up in the creation of tricorns for early Prussians those are my last samples cause following the sources is just such a pain, one source contradicts the other , and iam getting nowhere so i have modified 2 Wangrin hats, to 2 distinct shapes that are seen below





and the other style

[Megasalexandros]

The new fusilier cap that iam making

Menzel what do you think, some minor modifications are left and then i must make the texture accordingly

[gary]

Hmm could he be keith, i cant see him properly from that picture


As for the pompons, do you have that problem with the new infantry hats as well or only for the banner bearers? I could have used the geosphere instead of sphere option but is it a problem of the banner bearer only please confirm..?



'

And a question for you , do you recognize that early Prussian cavalry regiment?

I have modified a WANGRIN model in order to make it and the texture i used as a base was made by FLIKITOS

Ill need help though i want you to tell me which hat do you think is the better choice for the early Prussians, both cavalry and infantry
Iam giving up in the creation of tricorns for early Prussians those are my last samples cause following the sources is just such a pain, one source contradicts the other , and iam getting nowhere so i have modified 2 Wangrin hats, to 2 distinct shapes that are seen below





and the other style

outstanding mate looks fantastic.

[A_Menzel]

I think your fusilier cap is fantastic. Excellent work!
And I know you corrected the texture application as well.
If you make another type with the crown (the lower part) straight, then you can use it for the bombardier as well, and 42th, 44th, 45th Regiments if you ever make them. (There is no need unless you are going to make every Prussian regiment)
I finished the textures for the officer and the drummer of the lange Kerls. Officer's face is too white, but I will correct that. I sent you further notes in a pm.

[Megasalexandros]

The final fusilier hat


As for the way, i must correct that Lange Kerl officer model...


THANKS GARY for your constant support!