Hungarians' look and origin

[RomanSoldier9001]

Can I ask you a thing friend?Realy dont get offended! I am just curious.Well my question and I know this isnt the wrigth place to ask but since you are hungarian. Are hungarians europeans?I am realy I am puzzeled I read that hungarians are descendent from various turkish and mongolic tribes huns,avars, and mainly magiars that are a turkish tribe right?Are all ancestors of hungarians but hungarians look european to me.And the hungarian history proves that for centuries Hungary stand as a shield of Christiananity against the Mongols hordes against the Ottomans so what are hungarians?

[Csatádi]

We are surely Europeans because we live in the middle of Europe.
And we are europid, too.
Hungarians are a heavy mixture of nations and races. A Hungarian nowadays may look anyhow from a lappoid face to a mongoloid (but not mongolid!).

The conqering Hungarians were not mongolid in general. There were surely some influence but not much. The frequentest Hungarian face is turanoid which is a mongolid-europid mixed race but you wouldn't call turanoids to mongolid by sight.
The other turkish tribes were not mongolid either only had some influence.
The Hun lineage is not proved yet only a theory. The Avar lineage is insignificant.
The other main part is the Slavic origin. The conquering tribes assimilated most of them. These Slavs weren't similar to say Russians because they were a mixed race too.

[\Vazul's Ghost/]

Certainly a unique people and culture.

[Csatádi]

Some Hungarian faces from the age of the Magyar conquest (895).
Nr 13-18.
http://www.nhmus.hu/~kustar/kuag-keszrek.html

[sumskilz]

We are surely Europeans because we live in the middle of Europe.
And we are europid, too.
Hungarians are a heavy mixture of nations and races. A Hungarian nowadays may look anyhow from a lappoid face to a mongoloid (but not mongolid!).

The conqering Hungarians were not mongolid in general. There were surely some influence but not much. The frequentest Hungarian face is turanoid which is a mongolid-europid mixed race but you wouldn't call turanoids to mongolid by sight.
The other turkish tribes were not mongolid either only had some influence.
The Hun lineage is not proved yet only a theory. The Avar lineage is insignificant.
The other main part is the Slavic origin. The conquering tribes assimilated most of them. These Slavs weren't similar to say Russians because they were a mixed race too.

Interesting discussion. I think common sense dictates that modern Hungarians look more like other Europeans than they do like their linguistic cousins in Central Asia because the Medieval Magyars naturally mixed with the pre-existing inhabitants of the area as well as with their neighbors.

[Csatádi]

Created because of clearing another topic.

[Alexios I. Komnenos]

"Hungarians don"t exist, exist only Hungarized Slavs" - Proffesor L. L. Cavalli Sforza from University of Stanford.... Of course, Hungarians weren"t Europans, but Altaic (Mongoloided) people from river Ob basin under Urallic mountains, (Today Khanti and Mansi tribes are nearest ancestors of old Hungarians) ...But today Hungarians ARE Europans (90% have Indoeuropan orgin) So present Hungarians are Slavs and Germans in generality because of assimilisation old Hungarians (To carpathian basin come only about 25000 or 30000 horse riders)
About 6,5 % of Hungarian words have Turkish (Onogur) orgin....
Interesting mod, but why Hungarians don"t create mod about Hungarian raid into Slavic princedoom in 9th century...?

[dome]

very interesting
are you try to teach us about our own history, hm...?

d.

[JimboJones]

To be fair, most people have a twisted sense of their own history. Usually it is much more impressive than reality.

[sumskilz]

"Hungarians don"t exist, exist only Hungarized Slavs" - Proffesor L. L. Cavalli Sforza from University of Stanford.... Of course, Hungarians weren"t Europans, but Altaic (Mongoloided) people from river Ob basin under Urallic mountains, (Today Khanti and Mansi tribes are nearest ancestors of old Hungarians) ...But today Hungarians ARE Europans (90% have Indoeuropan orgin) So present Hungarians are Slavs and Germans in generality because of assimilisation old Hungarians (To carpathian basin come only about 25000 or 30000 horse riders)
About 6,5 % of Hungarian words have Turkish (Onogur) orgin....
Interesting mod, but why Hungarians don"t create mod about Hungarian raid into Slavic princedoom in 9th century...?

Umm no... you're not even citing your source correctly. Cavalli Sforza knows full well that Magyar is a Uralic language not an Altaic one. Secondly he wasn't saying that Hungarians don't exist, but that the genetic evidence appears to indicate that the Magyar contribution to the genetics of modern Hungary was relatively minor compared to the genetic influence of the pre-existing population and their neighbors. They obviously had a significant cultural influence however as the language and ethnic identity survived. If you had read any other posts in this forum, you would have realized that the Magyar mod guys are quite aware of the multi-ethnic past of their nation. If you are saying that present Hungarians are Slavs and Germans, then you obviously have a simplistic understanding of both ethnicity and genetics. Cavalli Sforza's point is that genetics and ethnicity do not always directly correlate. Hungarians are not Germans, they don't speak German as a first language and they don't think of themselves as being Germans. Those are things that characterize actual German people.

[JonathanB]

To be fair, most people have a twisted sense of their own history. Usually it is much more impressive than reality.

This can be true for sure. In my case it's the opposite. I'm Canadian and I think Canada for the most part sucks.....now and in the past.

Canada....the greatest polluters of the world!

[Alexios I. Komnenos]

Umm no... you're not even citing your source correctly. Cavalli Sforza knows full well that Magyar is a Uralic language not an Altaic one. Secondly he wasn't saying that Hungarians don't exist, but that the genetic evidence appears to indicate that the Magyar contribution to the genetics of modern Hungary was relatively minor compared to the genetic influence of the pre-existing population and their neighbors. They obviously had a significant cultural influence however as the language and ethnic identity survived. If you had read any other posts in this forum, you would have realized that the Magyar mod guys are quite aware of the multi-ethnic past of their nation. If you are saying that present Hungarians are Slavs and Germans, then you obviously have a simplistic understanding of both ethnicity and genetics. Cavalli Sforza's point is that genetics and ethnicity do not always directly correlate. Hungarians are not Germans, they don't speak German as a first language and they don't think of themselves as being Germans. Those are things that characterize actual German people.

Sure, I only wanted advise of fact that today Hungarians are (Indo/)Europans... I didn"t asserted that "Hungarians are Germans"
but only Hungarized Indoeuropans.... I afraid didn"t citate Sforza correct... And Ugro-Finns have Altaic look...

[dome]

Look, here in Hungary are 2 theories about our origin.
The finnugrian/ thisis the offical / and the caucasian. both has'nt clear sources wath hapend before we integrated the kabar empire, (and honestly I did'nt care ) and after this period they are nearly on the same ground. Anyways you are quiet right, nowdays it would be very hard to find a 100% hungarian. We were mixed with pechenegs, szeklers, kabars, slavs, cumans rumanians, armeniens, jews, germans, italians ,turks. So it's a great mix here in the carpathian basin .
But I have to tell you, that according to the archeoligist resources: the hungarainas -who entered the cearpathian basin- has 85% indoeuropien look and only the rest 15% has asiatic look.

d.

[Awellesley]

So present Hungarians are Slavs and Germans in generality because of assimilisation old Hungarians

Unless you lived in an extremely isolated area (which Hungary is not), it would very difficult to not have similar characteristics as your neighbors. Besides the inevitable intermarriage and genetic commingling, peoples would be exposed to similar climates, similar diets, etc.

[Csatádi]

Sure, I only wanted advise of fact that today Hungarians are (Indo/)Europans... I didn"t asserted that "Hungarians are Germans"
but only Hungarized Indoeuropans.... I afraid didn"t citate Sforza correct... And Ugro-Finns have Altaic look...

I think you don't get what a nationality means. Nationality is a cultural thing and not a particular genetic mix. After those Slavs were Magyarized they became Magyars and I'm sure they didn't used such a difficult term on themselves.

This mod is enough for us we don't have more time to mod the conquer of the Magyars. Make it yourself if you want to play that campaign.

***
Btw I took the contact with the expert who made these face reconstructions I mentioned earlier: http://www.nhmus.hu/~kustar/kuag-keszrek.html

She said the conquering Magyars were similar to the man on the picture 16 so they had more eastern look than western. My earlier opinion was based on older researches. But it is so hard to determine exactly when the ancients lived so such theories aren't fully proved.
Furthermore the theory the conquering Magyars were THE standard Magyars is faulty. On the steppes the tribes married with each other, took slaves, mixed tribes of course so they were far from a 'standardized genetic pool'.

JonathanB:
You shouldn't lash your country. It will poison your soul. We are just people and not some perfect ideals.

[Alexios I. Komnenos]

Look, here in Hungary are 2 theories about our origin.
The finnugrian/ thisis the offical / and the caucasian. both has'nt clear sources wath hapend before we integrated the kabar empire, (and honestly I did'nt care ) and after this period they are nearly on the same ground. Anyways you are quiet right, nowdays it would be very hard to find a 100% hungarian. We were mixed with pechenegs, szeklers, kabars, slavs, cumans rumanians, armeniens, jews, germans, italians ,turks. So it's a great mix here in the carpathian basin .
But I have to tell you, that according to the archeoligist resources: the hungarainas -who entered the cearpathian basin- has 85% indoeuropien look and only the rest 15% has asiatic look.

d.

- I prefer first version, because providing alternative B you must be Scythians (Daka-Saka : ) in orgin, and I know only one source who assert it - Anonym"s chronicle (Anonymi Belae notarii Historia Hungarica De septem primis ducibus Hungariae) but I think that this source is only propaganda from 13th century.... But I can be wrong...

[sumskilz]

Sure, I only wanted advise of fact that today Hungarians are (Indo/)Europans... I didn"t asserted that "Hungarians are Germans"
but only Hungarized Indoeuropans.... I afraid didn"t citate Sforza correct...

Yeah, the point I was making with the Hungarian/German thing is that people have this idea the language, culture, and genetics are all locked together somehow, but that's really a nationalistic myth, as you probably know. What makes a person Hungarian (or German or any ethnicity) is mostly their language, culture, and personal identity. It's not as much their specific genetic background since all people are mixed to various degrees. Indo-Europeans are a linguistic group; they are not a genetic group though most share some degree of common ancestry. Modern Hungarians do not speak an Indo-European language though they share share a common ancestry with many people who do.

And Ugro-Finns have Altaic look...

I don't agree. People who speak Finno-Ugric languages look different in different places. It is very hard for us to know what the proto-Finno-Ugric speakers looked like. Khanty speakers look more like Altaic people but they live further east and so they've mixed with more east Asian people. Finnish and Sami people don't look very Altaic at all but they mixed Scandinavian people.

Look, here in Hungary are 2 theories about our origin.

The finnugrian/ thisis the offical / and the caucasian.

Don't you think both theories are true in a way? Or maybe you just don't care.

the hungarainas -who entered the cearpathian basin- has 85% indoeuropien look and only the rest 15% has asiatic look.

This makes sense based on the linguistic evidence as well. The Turkic loan words in Magyar indicate extensive contact between early Magyar speakers and Turkic speakers. When people are exchanging words, they're probably also exchanging DNA. Though it's really hard to sort out the evidence, it suggests to me that maybe the early Magyars didn't really look that Asiatic but that they mixed quite a bit culturally and genetically with Turkic people before entering the Carpathian basin.

I find this stuff really interesting, because it's about solving mysteries of history when there is little written history to go on.

EDIT: I see Csatádi already covered some of my points while I was writing this.

[sumskilz]

Btw I took the contact with the expert who made these face reconstructions I mentioned earlier

Interesting. Now that I have that information, I have to re-evaluate my speculations.

- I prefer first version, because providing alternative B you must be Scythians (Daka-Saka : ) in orgin, and I know only one source who assert it - Anonym"s chronicle (Anonymi Belae notarii Historia Hungarica De septem primis ducibus Hungariae) but I think that this source is only propaganda from 13th century.... But I can be wrong...

You're still operating on a misunderstanding of what ethnicity means.

[Alexios I. Komnenos]

I think you don't get what a nationality means. Nationality is a cultural thing and not a particular genetic mix. After those Slavs were Magyarized they became Magyars and I'm sure they didn't used such a difficult term on themselves.

This mod is enough for us we don't have more time to mod the conquer of the Magyars. Make it yourself if you want to play that campaign.

***
Btw I took the contact with the expert who made these face reconstructions I mentioned earlier: http://www.nhmus.hu/~kustar/kuag-keszrek.html

She said the conquering Magyars were similar to the man on the picture 16 so they had more eastern look than western. My earlier opinion was based on older researches. But it is so hard to determine exactly when the ancients lived so such theories aren't fully proved.
Furthermore the theory the conquering Magyars were THE standard Magyars is faulty. On the steppes the tribes married with each other, took slaves, mixed tribes of course so they were far from a 'standardized genetic pool'.

JonathanB:
You shouldn't lash your country. It will poison your soul. We are just people and not some perfect ideals.

- Generality from this faces have seen like Onloguric, Khazar, but some look like Indoeuropan (27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 21, 15, 13, interesting.....

[dome]

Don't you think both theories are true in a way? Or maybe you just don't care.

hehe ok
I mean, that it don't makes me happier/prouder if the 2nd alternative would be true... I'm not really understand those people who gives really big importance to manage that thier ancestors were very important, powerfull etc... If my peoples were simple hunters in the far north and not some very powerfull nbations in the south steppe it is also ok for me. This means I don'T care

other hand

although I'm very interesting in history, and I'm in contact with academical peoples, I'm just boy who likes reading. So I don't have the base to judge which theory is true or both. I let this chance to those who are experts and dedicates thier life to solve the mysteries of the past.

d.