IB2 VANDALORVM II DISCUSSION/FEEDBACK

[firekiller]

several things have to be taken into consideration
1. working on these campaigns for RTW would have a possibility of lets say 85% that it can be done, BUT by the time we're finished, the game would probably be so obsolete that only the die-hard fans of the late era would DL them, if at all.
2. working on these campaigns for M2TW I am not really sure about the chances of doing all this. Instead of thinking of grand campaigns I am actually thinking of mini-campaigns building up to at least one grand campaign, with each mini-campaign adding to the completeness of the final mod.
my thoughts are these:

a. Campaign 1 - The Vandal invasion of Africa, 3 factions- Vandals, WRE, Berbers, u can actually add in the Alamanni representing the Swabian contingent of the Vandals (did they also go to Africa?) or the Alans (I do not plan to make the VAndals in Spain as separate factions (Vandals/Alans/Swabians) as I am sure that would mean war between them but an Alan faction in the CAucasus wouldn't be bad. why Africa? I doubt it would be very interesting especially with those who aren't in the know but finishing the campaign u would have already almost finished the Romans and the Germans (plus Sarmatians) w/c would be about 1/2 of the factions in the grand campaign. PLUS, this would simply be the lower left corner of the map in the grand campaign, so map coordinates wouldn't even need to be changed.

b. Campaign 2 (this could be campaign 1, if necessary) the Saxon invasion of Britain, I think this would be popular. think of it as a mini- Arthurian Total War, especially since Agraes does not plan on making an ATW for M2TW - with only 4 factions - RB, Saxons, Gaels, Picts. I do not intend to separate Angles, Saxons, Frisians, and what not as I believe that would be too many factions in that part of the world for the grand campaign.

c. Campaign 3 (The Hephthalite invasion) 4 factions? Kidarites, Sassanids, Hephthalites, Guptas?
d Campaign 4? (with Huns? the rise of the Hunnic empire? the consolidation of Eastern Europe by the Huns?)
after having finished these campaigns it would only be a small matter of adding in factions that haven't been finished (Lakhmids, Ghassanids, Armenians, etc...)

One other possibility is (somewhat similar to what Narses/Elrond was mentioning some time ago) some of us could work on the campaigns for RTW version (julianus heraclius comes to mind) while the others could work on the M2TW version.

So regarding Aurelain campaign:
Gaiten, give me a short description of the Roman units you proposed, esp regarding weapons, armor so I can start modelling them and be finished with them ASAP. for the meantime we shall call them hastati/principe/triarii and would probably retain that for internal name. The discussion on what to call them can be continued and when it is finally decided then it can easily just be changed in the descr_units.txt file. julianus heraclius' opinion has a very strong weight as he will mostly be the one to be building the campaign, but we cannot/should not allow such a minor thing as what to call them hinder the progress of the campaign. Again since it would be jh doing a lot of the work, it is his call to use RTW engine or BI engine. btw, does anybody know if Marian reforms really do not work in BI? or is it simply the matter of adding a marian reforms entry?

RE: Exporting cas to milkshape, where did u hear of this? if u know the program/ script todo so can u point it to me?

cheers

Are you also planning to do 1 big campain who includes all?

small thing on texture some horses texture are a bit low (also shield in arms ect wenn mounted), inf units look great though also there is way to mush heritic spam and you cant really read on many provinces what the % of religion (example - 213233123424)

+ perhaps make the ram damage a bit less cause dont like if the gate goes after 5 punhes down. Still really fun mod and the patch makes it even better


Also if you kill the roman shadow faction it dont come back if there is again a revolt

[midnite]

There has been talk about expanding IB2. Ramon would be the best person to ask.


EOR is working on an Eastern empire mod which will include the sassanids.

[SaberHRE]

When the first IB came out it brought a little tear to my eye. It was the first time i've actually enjoyed playing RTW:BI. Initially I wasn't used to the weirdly looking units, but soon I came to love them. Ever since, many things have changed in IB. So I've just recently tested out IB 2 and the same feeling that brought a tear to my eye, came back . Thank you guys for this.

I have question though. I wondering will IB 2 follow the route of numerous submods, or will there be a campaign with the whole WRE and ERE?

[Hrimfar]

I think the map is really too large. I'd like a smaller map with more themed surroundings, at the mom. in beta the campaign map is one big green blobb, nothing that interest me really.

[Floit]

First of all: congrats for this great mod

I downloaded it yesterday and was really impressed by the detailed units.
But i also enjoyed playing the campaign as WRE...
One thing i would like to mention, which didnt appeal to me was the AI's behaviour.
I play on vh but neither the vandals, nor the visigoths did threaten me in any way. Actually they seeked a ceasefire and even an alliance with me and therefore i had no problems at all to build up my economy and stabilize my empire...
Even though my african territories were really outnumbered (for reasons of money-saving^^) the vandals didnt invade, nor tried the Visigoths to conquer anything in Gaul, and the rebels stayed passive either. So what i would have expected is a feeling of fighting for the mere existence, a constant threat, you surely know what i mean.

Nevertheless, the game experience is really stunning and i cannot wait to play the complete version of this mod Keep up the great work!!!

[Riothamus]

First of all: congrats for this great mod

I downloaded it yesterday and was really impressed by the detailed units.
But i also enjoyed playing the campaign as WRE...
One thing i would like to mention, which didnt appeal to me was the AI's behaviour.
I play on vh but neither the vandals, nor the visigoths did threaten me in any way. Actually they seeked a ceasefire and even an alliance with me and therefore i had no problems at all to build up my economy and stabilize my empire...
Even though my african territories were really outnumbered (for reasons of money-saving^^) the vandals didnt invade, nor tried the Visigoths to conquer anything in Gaul, and the rebels stayed passive either. So what i would have expected is a feeling of fighting for the mere existence, a constant threat, you surely know what i mean.

Nevertheless, the game experience is really stunning and i cannot wait to play the complete version of this mod Keep up the great work!!!

Hi Floit, we thank you for your input.

Just wondering if you downloaded the patch. Its too make things for the Romans more difficult. We are working on a second beta patch that will have the barbarians quickly knocking at your door

I think the map is really too large. I'd like a smaller map with more themed surroundings, at the mom. in beta the campaign map is one big green blobb, nothing that interest me really.

Hi Hrimfar,

If the time period doesn't interest you then the mod might not either. It's a beta version, the map and units currently created for playability and not so much aesthetics yet.

When the first IB came out it brought a little tear to my eye. It was the first time i've actually enjoyed playing RTW:BI. Initially I wasn't used to the weirdly looking units, but soon I came to love them. Ever since, many things have changed in IB. So I've just recently tested out IB 2 and the same feeling that brought a tear to my eye, came back . Thank you guys for this.

I have question though. I wondering will IB 2 follow the route of numerous submods, or will there be a campaign with the whole WRE and ERE?

Thanks SaberHRE..

We aren't yet sure about submods and so forth. Some discussion about about but it certainly is a possibility.

[Floit]

Hi Floit, we thank you for your input.

Just wondering if you downloaded the patch. Its too make things for the Romans more difficult. We are working on a second beta patch that will have the barbarians quickly knocking at your door

Yay, i did install the patch, thats why i was a bit dazzled about the passiveness of the AI.
Looking forward for the patch you mentioned.
Im sure that the mod in the end will play out as gripping as IB I.

[Floit]

So i restarted the WRE campaign on H/H and after 6 turns, taraconensis suddenly belonged to my faction... dont know why, there were no messages or anything concerning that, it just was my province... is this a bug? ( i attached a screenshot)

[Riothamus]

So i restarted the WRE campaign on H/H and after 6 turns, taraconensis suddenly belonged to my faction... dont know why, there were no messages or anything concerning that, it just was my province... is this a bug? ( i attached a screenshot)

Not a bug...Recently it was a Roman city but now under occupation by the Visigoths. The city can rebel back to you

Yay, i did install the patch, thats why i was a bit dazzled about the passiveness of the AI.
Looking forward for the patch you mentioned.
Im sure that the mod in the end will play out as gripping as IB I.

I've noticed that the AI tries to build up a great deal and doesn't want to take aggresive risks..Seems it

[Draco Borealis]

Those loyalist uprisings are less common now thanks to patch but still only Barabrians active are the Wandals in Africa (And maybe it shud be so becouse historicly Goths were alied to Romans till 470s); the cost of maintaining a strong field army is extensive now forcing you to either disband your armies (and risking invasion) or raising taxes (which always leed to rebelions and usurpation) We wanted a realism so we got one. I realy have to use diplomats to pit one Barbarian against other and spies to encurage Roman royalists but still I'm pushed back to Italy. Very intense play I can't wait for ATW II and congratulation to Ramon and team.

[Riothamus]

Those loyalist uprisings are less common now thanks to patch but still only Barabrians active are the Wandals in Africa (And maybe it shud be so becouse historicly Goths were alied to Romans till 470s); the cost of maintaining a strong field army is extensive now forcing you to either disband your armies (and risking invasion) or raising taxes (which always leed to rebelions and usurpation) We wanted a realism so we got one. I realy have to use diplomats to pit one Barbarian against other and spies to encurage Roman royalists but still I'm pushed back to Italy. Very intense play I can't wait for ATW II and congratulation to Ramon and team.

Hi Draco Borealis,

Seems like the patch has had some intended results but hopefully the next one should even more

The Visigoths were allied with the Wre(but 460s were defeated several times by Aegidius in Gaul) but they did expand down into Iberia before becoming a major threat to Gaul. We want them to spread down their and at the same time threaten the Vandals thus forcing them to move into and through Africa thus creating a historical situation. The next patch I think will more than not play this out.

The only stagnant faction faction should be the Suebi but they should be able to hold there own. The Visigoths with the help of the Wre and with hired mercenaries in the 450's (455ad? ) crushed the Suebi position of power in Iberia. They did briefly have a heyday, before the Visigoths war on them, as they expanded out a bit further than they are presently defined in the game.

[Sanskrit_Bandit]

will there be an eventual diversication of the visigothic and vandal rosters?

[midnite]

will there be an eventual diversication of the visigothic and vandal rosters?

Ramon will make the final decision but I am working right now on shields among other things. You will be able to pick out a goth unit from a vandal unit. I believe new units will also be added to the rosters.

[Studpuffin]

Hi everyone,

I was just wondering if you guys had any news on what the next step in the beta will be and perhaps when it might be coming. Where will be the next place we get to battle trousered barbarians and perfumed romans?

Thanks,
StudPuffin

[dajarvi]

I don't know if this helps out, but concerning the financial situation of the Roman's at the time (I am a historian in this field), inflation was sky rocket. Bread was extraordinarily expensive. The fine armor that the Romans had during the beginning of the pax romana was too expensive for the armies, and they had resorted to german fashions. Most of the roman army at this time consisted of germans anyway. military discipline had dwindled as past-Roman values changed with catholicism. With inflation so high, there was nothing fancy or great about the roman army. its previous glory was no more. On the basis of chainmail, that was not a roman military fashion, but celtic. metal was too expensive, and failing roman economics rendered troops to be armored in leather plate links. I forget the word for it right now, but metal was not common in the army. Shields were wood. Helmets would be metal, as of course, swords and spear points. But i don't suppose the MTW2 engine isn't designed to handle separate kingdom economics?

[Riothamus]

Hi everyone,

I was just wondering if you guys had any news on what the next step in the beta will be and perhaps when it might be coming. Where will be the next place we get to battle trousered barbarians and perfumed romans?

Thanks,
StudPuffin

I'm going to post soon an IB2 Beta Patch II Info and discussion thread soon

I don't know if this helps out, but concerning the financial situation of the Roman's at the time (I am a historian in this field), inflation was sky rocket. Bread was extraordinarily expensive. The fine armor that the Romans had during the beginning of the pax romana was too expensive for the armies, and they had resorted to german fashions. Most of the roman army at this time consisted of germans anyway. military discipline had dwindled as past-Roman values changed with catholicism. With inflation so high, there was nothing fancy or great about the roman army. its previous glory was no more. On the basis of chainmail, that was not a roman military fashion, but celtic. metal was too expensive, and failing roman economics rendered troops to be armored in leather plate links. I forget the word for it right now, but metal was not common in the army. Shields were wood. Helmets would be metal, as of course, swords and spear points. But i don't suppose the MTW2 engine isn't designed to handle separate kingdom economics?

This is an interesting post dajarvi and will come back to it with an edit when I have some time to respond

[Riothamus]

I don't know if this helps out, but concerning the financial situation of the Roman's at the time (I am a historian in this field), inflation was sky rocket. Bread was extraordinarily expensive. The fine armor that the Romans had during the beginning of the pax romana was too expensive for the armies, and they had resorted to german fashions. Most of the roman army at this time consisted of germans anyway. military discipline had dwindled as past-Roman values changed with catholicism. With inflation so high, there was nothing fancy or great about the roman army. its previous glory was no more. On the basis of chainmail, that was not a roman military fashion, but celtic. metal was too expensive, and failing roman economics rendered troops to be armored in leather plate links. I forget the word for it right now, but metal was not common in the army. Shields were wood. Helmets would be metal, as of course, swords and spear points. But i don't suppose the MTW2 engine isn't designed to handle separate kingdom economics?

This is very much how we want the Wesern Roman Empire to feel like. We are working on it so armour upgrades, costs for units and especially upkeep would be extremely expensive. But on a few other points.
I'm not totally sold on the idea that the Roman Army was now consisting of mostly German troops or that it had lost its military discipline, Under a good commander as Aetius, the Army could be disciplined as shown at the Battle of Châlons in 451 AD. The Roman army though certainly was no longer feared or respected as it once was. Germanic tribes learned there tactics and had better equipped themselves and as you say the WRE may have been less better equipped than inthe past. The Visigoths were seriously concerned by how small Aetius Roman army that came for battle as Gaul was invaded by the Huns. The Roman army in the west relied on the foederati, the foederati that consistent of the now whole German migrated factions such as the Visigoths, Franks, Alans and Burgundians. This was now the bulk of the army to fight battles.
The strain though in sustaining a large Roman army and equipping it and the large Germanic factions within the Roman economic and recruiting grounds now made things even more difficult then the previous centuries. This we would like the player playing this campaign to feel but I think we also want the player to have the chance to restore what once was a glorious Empire in the west.

[Draco Borealis]

Catholicism in V century Rome? So Rome fell becouse of Vatican-Jesuist conspiracy?
You can argue that Germanics were taking new Romano-Parthian fashions via arms and luxury products import since III century; that mail armor was more easy to poduce and maintain for six hundred thousands men strong army in new state own weapon factories, Iranian copied Spatha was better suited to new mobile warfare than old gladius and that Half Vandals like Falvius Stilicho or half Scytians like Flavius Aetius were better Romans than useless but PC Ravenna Palace Emperors, But the point is nothing including one thousand years of future existance of Roman Empire in east won't change the minds raised on Gibbons legend about "True Rome" ending with death of Marc Aurelius and all of dramatic doom and gloom V century theories. In my opinion Aetius could Rescue Empire in the west by assasinating Walentinian and his clique and promoting people like Aedigus, Maiorian or Arelius Ambrosianus. What empire needed in V century was basicly another soldier emperor like Constantine; unfortunetly we got Honorius instead. Untill VII century all mediterean basin was still culturaly and economicly one Roman Comonwealth (Romania) with Barbarians like Franks or Goths either 1% of population and/or rapidly romanising themself. Until Umayids and Karolings emerged as new claimants to universal power with their rival ideologies of Islam and "Roman Catholicism" there was nothing seriusly oposing Ortodox Romanitas. NWO is VIII not XXI phenomen.

[Floit]

This is very much how we want the Wesern Roman Empire to feel like. We are working on it so armour upgrades, costs for units and especially upkeep would be extremely expensive.
The strain though in sustaining a large Roman army and equipping it and the large Germanic factions within the Roman economic and recruiting grounds now made things even more difficult then the previous centuries. This we would like the player playing this campaign to feel but I think we also want the player to have the chance to restore what once was a glorious Empire in the west.

I would appreciate such a desastrous and almost hopeless situation for the WRE although this could frighten... well more "casual" players. But i think most of the people who play a mod like yours, are no casual players but rather folks who really care for history and a very tough challenge. It should not be possible to restore romes glory within 100 turns.
Well, i have the feeling that youre balancing it the right way, so please dont take this as a complaint. I trust in your competence

[dajarvi]

Alright. I have thoroughly tested the beta. I must say that I love the battle map. The detail to units and animations are really delicious. I also like the use of rivers on the campaign map. The color, the feel--it all blends together really well. Now for the constructive criticism:

Lots of folks have already posted really good ideas, so I will try to add something original. Try. =) The use of pagan temples could be used for not only as they are currently, but different temples could provide different units. It would be interesting to see a few more playable factions. I know Britannia has been overdone, but it is a good opportunity to provide a barbaric rise of Arthur, since the Roman legions have left. Maybe provide certain scripting for minor nations who are not playable who soul purpose is to raid Britannia. Like the irish. The saxons. It would also be interesting to somehow incorporate the Eastern half of the Roman Empire. Maybe they could replace the senate--occasionally offering military or financial assistance. The Romans wouldn't have exactly seen the take over of the Western half of their Empire as an invasion, but of political unrest. In fact, when the Germans took Rome, they didn't ransack the city or the temples. They just simply sent a letter to the Emperor in the East and said they were now the representatives of the Western half of the empire. Overall, a larger map is needed, but it doesn't have to include the east.

It would also be interesting to see the use of castles. Feudalism was very Germanic, and fortified homes, or castles, were coming into existence. Especially in extremely hostile environments like in Britannia and northern France. In fact, historically, city populations dispersed drastically. Most of the population dwelled in the rural areas. they idea of a "peasant" or serfdom was already in full affect. There were far more castles than cities. An idea, there, would be to have more castles, and make cities something for lords to fight over--a valuable source of extra wealth. The Dark Ages aren't dark, anymore. Historians consider it the Early Middle Ages, as so much archeology and discoveries have been made that really brighten it up.

In the case of the Vandals, they were at first strong, but did not survive very long. Rome, at the time of their usurpation, did not have a strong interior army because they could not afford it. The first defeat outside Constantinople was pretty much a clear path for the germans. Rome should be far weaker and more disorganized than the game portrays them. The germans were far more superior, militarily and in wealth. One of the big reasons the germans did not take constantinople was because it was impenatrable.

You could incorporate more german and celtic tribes as they compete against each other to become the representative of the Western half of the Empire.