Basic Questions of Organization

[Blau&Gruen]

The following has been posted at various other places by me in one or the other form. As it might be worth of a broader interest. I allow me to make an own thread about. Feel free to discuss or to complement.

R e m a r k:

CA uses in ETW a modelling of infantry rgt in a scale 1:10 on ultra.

O v e r v i e w:

Rgt Inf (administrative organization)
(- battalion)
-- company

Rgt Inf (tactical organization)
- battalion
-- full division (company sized body)
(--- half division)
---- peloton/platoon*

Bat Inf (administrative)
- 4 companies of musketeers, 1 company of grenadiers

Bat Inf (tactical)
- 16 small peloton of musketeers (in 4 full divisons) + 1 company/full division of grenadiers
- 8 large peloton of musketeers (in 4 full divisions) + 1 company/full division of grenadiers

Gren bat (ad hoc)
- are formed out of the Gren companies of 2 rgt inf
-- 4 companies of gren
--- gren are distributed among the musketeer pelotons (between 1670 until shortly before 1700), then gren are divided like the musketeers in peloton)

Numbers (including staff and aides):
Rgt Inf 1300-2400 men
Bat Inf 500-900 men
Company Gren 100 to 150 men
Peloton 30-40 men (earlier, smaller type = quarter of a full division)
Peloton 60-80 men (later, larger type = half division)

Cav Rgt (administrative)

Cav Rgt (tactical organization)
- 4 to 6 squadrons

Numbers Cav:
Rgt about 1000 horsemen
Squadron 140-190 horsemen

N o t e:

*The peloton (or platoon) is the basic tactical fire "unit" in the 18th century. The peloton is formed ad hoc on the battlefield by dividing the battalion into 16 later 8 teams of the same size (counting through the ranks). The peloton replaces earlier tactical fire forms such as the enfilade and the counter-march. The early pelotons have about the size of tactical units that fired in the enfilade and the counter-march (20-30 men) normally under the cover of pikemen or adjected to pikemen units.

[geala]

Nice information. But you should add that it is more or less the Prussian organisation. It differed from other nations. For example the French had (at some time) 13 companies in a battalion with 12 pelotons for firing.

[Blau&Gruen]

It is Prussian and Austrian mainly Silesian and Seven-Years-War orientated tactical organization.

Thank for your remark with the French,

the French administrative organization of regiments was according to another text, I have read somewhere 17 companies (at least one grenadier company should be included here). I might be mistaken here.

I suppose if I am not misstaken then that your number represents not the same state of development of the structure of organization. If you could provide some further information that would be cool. It would be extremely strange if the french regiments of infantry kept the same administrative subdivsion between 1670 and 1789.

I would also be interest even more about the tactical organization, especially the fire tactic related subdivisions would ben interesting.

The 13 or 17 companies should be per regiment, I think. 12 pelotons as the subdivison of a French battalion of infantry fits well in if you consider that the French battalion was uselly smaller than the Prussian ones (about two hundred to three hundred men less).

I would propose:

French Rgt Inf (administrative)
- 13 companies

French Rgt Inf (tactical)
- 2 bat
-- 12 peloton per bat

If 1 bat has 540 men, then 1 peloton à 45 men.

This is within the range of the older smaller peloton type before 1750.

[geala]

I'm not a specialist for the French army unfortunately (and also not for others ). Most of my information in this case comes from Anatomy of Victory from Nosworthy. The book is great but gives only examples. Matters changed seemingly quite often. In 1755 the French changed the number of companies per battalion from 13 (12 fusiliers + 1 grenadier) to 17. It was really per battalion, the French companies were smaller than the Prussians.

I presume there are other people who know better of the French and other nations and could add some information.

[Blau&Gruen]

You see you know much.

1755!

bat or rgt

I am not sure if you're right here because. Traditionally a batallion is a half of a regiment.

If your battalions had 13 or 17 companies, then the regiments were extremely large even if the companies were smaller than prussian companies.

It is a common missunderstanding in literature.

Compare

Austria: 1 bat = 4 full-divisions/(companies) = 16 pelotons = about 800 men

Prussia: 1 bat = 4 full-divisions/(companies) = 8 pelotons = about 600 men

France: 1 bat = ........................ ? ................ = 12 pelotons = about 600 men

The reason for this missunderstanding is that the company is a name for an administrative body but sometimes it is also used for tactical bodies.

In your case the French company would have about the size of an Austrian peloton which had about half the size of a Prussian peloton.

I assume the French peloton has about the size of an Austrian peloton and your source may have mixed the terminology.

It is possible that your source refers not to a tactical organization but to an adiminstrative organization of a battalion of a regiment including training units, units for levé purposes etc.

[CBR]

The Austrians switched from 4 to 6 companies per battalion by 1757. The Prussians had 5 musketeer companies per battalion.

The French companies were rather small and was about 40 men each. So yes the 13-17 companies are per battalion which would put the battalion paper strength of about 710 men(for 17 companies that is)


CBR

[Blau&Gruen]

Yes, agreed.

Austrian Rgt
1740: 3 bat musketeer + 2 cp gren (bat à 5 cp)
1748: 4 bat " + 2 cp gren (bat à 4 cp - hungarian bat still 5 cp)
1756: 3 bat field, 1 bat garrison, 2 cp gren (bat à 4 cp) - peace
1756: 2 bat field, 2 cp gren, 1 bat garrison (bat f à 6 cp, bat g à 4 cp) - war
1769: 2 bat f + 2 cp gren, 1 bat g (bat f à 6 cp, bat g 4 cp) - peace
1769: 2 bat f + 2 cp gren, 1 bat g + 2 cp fusiliers - war

The Prussians had 5 musketeer companies per battalion.

Yes, this is the administrative organization of the prussian infantry battalion.

Pruss bat (administrative)
- 4 cp musketeer
- 1 cp gren
1 cp about 122 men + further men (1755)
1 cp about 150-160 men (1768)

The tactical organization is still 8 pelotons per bat.

The French companies were rather small and was about 40 men each. So yes the 13-17 companies are per battalion which would put the battalion paper strength of about 710 men.

Good point!

The administrative body of the company had about more or less the same size as the peloton had in this case (especially if you substract the grenadiers).

It follows then:

French inf bat (administrative)
- 13-17 cp (cp à 40 men)
(710 would include the grenadier companie(s) probably)
-- if you substract one or two gren cp, you are back to 500+ men per bat

French inf bat (tactical)
- 12 peloton (peloton à 40 men)

Do you know how many grenadier companies a French battalion or regiment contained?

[CBR]

A Prussian regiment had 12 companies, 10 musketeer and 2 grenadier. The grenadiers were detached to form a 4 company grenadier battalion. The 10 musketeer companies were split up with 5 in each battalion.

Edit: AFAIK The French had 1 grenadier company per battalion

One thing is paper strength another thing is real strength. If a French battalion had ~500 men then it was because of attrition or recruiting problems.

CBR

[Blau&Gruen]

I have misstyped 4 instead of 5.

I agree with the detachement of the grenadiers. 2 cp of gren of 2 rgts of inf were merge into 1 bat gren (sometimes).

5 cp musketeer in 1 bat


1 bat (Prussian: tactical organization)
- 4 fulldivisons
-- 2 peloton in 1 fulldivision

1 peloton à about 80 men including officers and others

If a French battalion had ~500 men then it was because of attrition or recruiting problems.

This is possible but the question remains whether the French grenadier company was merge with the musketeers as in Sweden or if the French grenadiers fought as a closed body within the battleline or if they were detached from the battalion and should not be counted together with the pelotons of the battleline. If the last is the case, then this is also a factor in relation to ~500 m. I have recently seen a plausible numbers for French regiments at Blendheim. That could contribute some explanation but I am in the moment lost with where this has been.

[CBR]

The foreign units in French service were a bit different:

Swiss had 6 companies per battalion but each company was 120 men.

Irish/Scottish had 12 fusilier and 1 grenadier(~55 and ~45 men per company)

Germans started with 6 companies of ~85 men each but late in the SYW it changed to 9 fusilier and 1 grenadier (~80 and ~50 per company)

For more details: http://vial.jean.free.fr/new_npi/rev..._binf_org_.htm

Edit: The French did not form the permanent grenadier battalion as the Prussians did. Sometimes they were detached for special duty and sometimes they stayed with their battalion. It does seem very similar to the later Napoleonic Wars.

Company size also changed. From late 17th century and throughout the 18th century it varies from a paper strength of 35 to 50 IIRC.


CBR

[Blau&Gruen]

Thanks for the links

How do you see tactial bodies in the french army beside the peloton? Where there other typs? Have you any idea about the development of tactical bodies between 1670 and 1756?

[CBR]

Not sure what you mean? IIRC there was some experimentation was higher organisations ala divisions in the SYW. Brigades were pretty ad hoc formations formed for just a season or shorter.


CBR

[Blau&Gruen]

I mean the actual tactical organizaton during combat, more the details on lower level, e.g. peloton fire, number of ranks, rotation in the style of the older "enfilade", etc.
What I am also interested in is the question of the reforms 1670 with the introduction of the new regimental order, abolishment of the pikemen in 1700 and whether they were further reforms between 1700 and the Seven Years War.

Your article is really good.

I am going to corret what I have collected so far on its base.

[CBR]

Ah ok then.

Officially infantry was supposed to use a 5 rank formation. During the Nine Years War one account tell of units ending campaigns in 4 ranks and in the War of the Spanish Succession(WSS) most units are said to have started out in 4 ranks, the rest in 3, but at the end of campaigns only few were still in 4 ranks.

The fire by ranks were from the 1680's done by having the forward ranks kneel while the rear rank fired, then next rank stood up and fired etc. Apparently the first salvo could be done by more than one rank. During the WSS the French apparently introduced a system with the first rank kneeling to allow for a system similar to the Dutch platoon fire.

Some think the French did lag behind a bit as they were focused so much on the bayonet charge that allowed for either just one salvo or none at all. That is also seen by some experimentation with narrow and very deep columns, and some of that was part of the 1755 regulations IIRC. That and a rather thick 6 rank line that also was meant for charging. But the regular formation was a 3 rank line after 1755.

The use of pikes gradually dropped during the later third of the 17th century but the ratio varies a bit so might have been very different from one regiment to another: 1663 1:3, 1670 2:5, 1671 1:3 and in the 1690's around 1:4-5 and none in garrison companies.

Although it is short I hope it answers some of your questions

If you have a big interest in the French army of the 17th century then I would suggest "Giant of the Grand Siècle: The French Army 1610-1715" by John A. Lynn.


CBR

[Blau&Gruen]

Thanks for the book reference

I will have a look in the book as soon as a get access to.

[Sii]

Massive necro and at that I doubt this question will be answered from seeing the activity on this board. That said, I was wondering what unit size would be best for representing typical formations? I've always played with ultra (150-200) and labeled them as a company. However, is that how a firing line was organized at a company level? Or was it platoon based? I'm trying to organize my stacks by regiment, battalion, company to try and immerse myself into the game a little more, but no matter how hard I Google I can't find the specific information I want.

So, does anyone know what would be the best method for organizing each unit of line infantry? Platoon or Company?

[Quintus Hortensius Hortalus]

well, basicly your assumption is wrong. In ETW 1 man represents 3 or 4 in reality. So 1 unit is representing 1 Regiment. Furthermore a platoon was not a standing formation in a company of a bataillion in the 18th century. A platoon was more "fire-group" (also called "half-company"). Anyway the most important formations in the 18th century were bataillions and regiments (in some states 1 regiment had only 1 bataillion). A company was not provided to act as indepent military formation, ist main goal was to keep the men in line and ease the execution of orders.