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Thread: Naval Tactics Thread

  1. #41
    Murakawa
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    Default Re: Naval Tactics Thread

    Any way to create a custom scenario where you are playing maybe two ships against two ships...or some combination other than 6 or 8. Easier to study tactics and capabilities.

    Any help would be appreciated. Sure wish the manual was a bit more "in-depth."
    Sure am grateful for these forums.

    Aloha

  2. #42
    Jayzilla's Avatar Sōkō yumi
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    Default Re: Naval Tactics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by skrump View Post
    how do you physically engage your ships with the enemy? As you close in, do you just right click your opponent, and let your ship figure it out on Free fire, or do you do the manual reload and fire? The 2nd option is kind of fun, reminds me of the old school Pirate games I played back on those old Apple computers, but it doesn't....seem....to....work.... I try to do a manual reload/broadside fire on an enemy ship, and pretty much 80% of the cannons miss. Is there a range that I've got to figure out? I imagine manually firing, although fun, is not going to work in battles that are any larger than the "small scale" fights I'm going through in the opening campaign. I'm just trying to figure out the basic mechanics of the naval battles here before I move on to the broader fleet tactics....
    manual fire has more morale impact on the enemy but as more cannon miss it does less actual dmg. What i do is maneuver my guys so that the 'fire arc' from the sides is pointing to the enemy, and let the auto fire take it from there. And never let the guy shoot from directly behind your ship, as that causes 'huge' morale penalty. If you've trying to figure out the basics, don't try any cannon shot besides round.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quixote07 View Post
    Could you explain your hammer and anvil setup a bit more?

    I basically understand that you send in a line of heavy ships to absorb the beating, like normal, but then what do you do with your second squadron? Wait until the enemy has turned to go after your main line and then pounce?

    Is that it?
    I'll draw in a nice little diagram. I think you could call it 'column envelopment' to make it a little more clear.

    Spoiler for big pic


    let me know if you want more clarity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quixote07 View Post
    If it is, how do you time your light ship's attack so they split the line? What do you do if you don't have numerical superiority? What happens if the enemy maneuvers so that they are on the far side of your heavy ships, so your light ships would have to sail through your own ships to break their line? Doesn't it risk collision pretty heavily?
    The idea is to get local superiority, i.e., i have 2 ships where they only have one. Their other ships are too busy turning around. If they ram me it breaks their line and makes it easy to divide and conquer.
    Last edited by Jayzilla; March 09, 2009 at 01:40 AM.

  3. #43
    Wimmer
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    Default Re: Naval Tactics Thread

    What do you guys think is the best way to make use of the wind direction? It seems to me that ships can turn on a dime regardless of wind, so I usually find it hard to use my greater speed sailing with the wind, and turn it into any kind of advantage.

  4. #44
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    Default Re: Naval Tactics Thread

    I'm loving the naval battles in this game (probably the only part of the game I do enjoy now).
    First naval battle I encountered was 1 v 3 and I came out on top. Was hooked.
    AVOID EMPIRE TW LIKE THE PLAGUE
    SAVE YOUR MONEY, BUY SOMETHING BETTER


  5. #45
    Jayzilla's Avatar Sōkō yumi
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    Default Re: Naval Tactics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bobtheubilder View Post
    What do you guys think is the best way to make use of the wind direction? It seems to me that ships can turn on a dime regardless of wind, so I usually find it hard to use my greater speed sailing with the wind, and turn it into any kind of advantage.
    the trick isn't to use the speed with the wind, its to deny the enemy the ability to turn into your ships' rear. ie.,

    <--- (wind)

    D O
    D O
    D O

    the D's can't maneuver toward the O's, while the O's can easily cut their line.

    Quote Originally Posted by SOE digital View Post
    I'm loving the naval battles in this game (probably the only part of the game I do enjoy now).
    First naval battle I encountered was 1 v 3 and I came out on top. Was hooked.
    yeah i'm starting to love the ranked battles, although the odd game crash sucks.

  6. #46
    Warclaw's Avatar Wimmer
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    Default Re: Naval Tactics Thread

    What you folks are discussing is called the 'weather gauge' and fleets would manuever for hours.. sometimes days within sight of each other trying to gain the weather gauge advantage. Let me do a quick diagram to describe it:

    In this diagram, the red force has the weather gauge.


    They are upwind which gives them the advantage on controling the fight. If the blue force wants to close the range, they must sail upwind (Usually by tacking) which will take their broadsides mostly out of play.

    It's one of the most-important factors in naval warfare.

    Ah heck, while I'm at it I'll address a couple of other things.

    Someone asked about how to position their ships. Well, generally your heaviest ships will be in the lead in the event you need to go head-on and close with an enemy. That is what Nelson did in HMS Victory at Trafalgar. His ship was at the head of a column, and in turn absorbed quite enough damage that would have sunk lesser vessels. Generally you would place somewhat more nimble ships near the rear of your line to prevent the enemy from moving up and trying to pound your capital line ships in the stern.

    And remember, "Crossing the T" was most often not one single manuever where all of the ships moved in a single line.

    This is what most people have described as 'Crossing the T'.




    However, a naval force would be on the look-out for just such a manuever and would begin to turn as well to form a typical line battle.




    Basicly, the best usage of the 'T crossing' would be during a line battle, by combining the T with the Weather Gauge advantage. It allows for THIS manuever, which was most-feared:



    A quick turn downwind can allow for the tactical manuever of slipping into the gap between ships. (Often several hundred feet, to allow for the ability to manuever somewhat) Hence why having the weather gauge was vital. It allowed for control of the engagement.

    This manuever would allow the crossing ships to fire broadsides out of both sides of their ships, as well as all of the decks, at an enemy who can only fight back with bow and stern chasers.

    (And I say all decks because due to riding low in the water due to damage, or choppy seas.. a ship catching the wind from the side will rock from side to side, and often the lowest deck of guns would be submerged during the rolls and had to remain closed and not used during combat.)

    Sorry for all of the pictures, I felt it was the best way of explaining things.

  7. #47
    Murakawa
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    Default Re: Naval Tactics Thread

    Don't forget - the wind is your friend.

    | |
    | | <-Wind
    | |

    them , you, <-Wind.

    This way the enemy can't turn into you as they will come to a crawl as they enter the wind, however you can always turn into them and gain full wind speed while you do so.

    Playing PotBS helped a lot....
    My best Naval fight so far?

    Me : 1 British Sloop
    Them: 6 French Brigs and Traders.

    I sunk 2, crippled 1, got 2 tangled up and then the last managed to board me and capture me Took me 1 hr 40 mins......

    I lost, but not bad for a sloop

  8. #48
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    Default Re: Naval Tactics Thread

    Brilliant write up Warclaw!
    Loved reading it.
    AVOID EMPIRE TW LIKE THE PLAGUE
    SAVE YOUR MONEY, BUY SOMETHING BETTER


  9. #49
    XiombargDei's Avatar Vexillifer
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    Default Re: Naval Tactics Thread

    I declare this thread epic ! i'm sure someone will take all these good advices and strategies and come up with a detailled and clear guide ^^

  10. #50
    Jayzilla's Avatar Sōkō yumi
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    Default Re: Naval Tactics Thread

    lol, what, this isn't detailed and clear enough already?

  11. #51
    Tiro
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    Default Re: Naval Tactics Thread

    So... It's the first time I have problems in a naval battle. Those Danes beat me badly, since the wind adverse from the start and I don't know how to outmaneuver them.

  12. #52
    Centurio
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    Default Re: Naval Tactics Thread

    Has anyone been able to succesfully use Xebecs and Galleys?
    As the ottomans i find that these are rather useless and i have started to rely on european style ships instead.
    Any tips?

    Edit: Especially disappointed in the Xebecs whose crew is tiny and who usually dont even get to board an enemy, which is what they're supposed to be good at.

  13. #53
    Jayzilla's Avatar Sōkō yumi
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    Default Re: Naval Tactics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by dmar View Post
    So... It's the first time I have problems in a naval battle. Those Danes beat me badly, since the wind adverse from the start and I don't know how to outmaneuver them.
    yeah i hate it when the game start and the wind is pointing straight at you. basically, deploying your ships horizontal so like this means you wont be completely unmaneuverable, but you still will have to play the defensive and wait for them to come to you.

    (them)
    _________________________

    _________________________
    > > > > >

    |(wind)
    V

  14. #54
    Murakawa
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    Default Re: Naval Tactics Thread

    Warclaw, is there any simple way to do your more sophisticated T-crossing manoeuvre in Empire? If you stay in line formation, obviously only the lead ship will cross. Do you have to micro each ship?

  15. #55
    Jayzilla's Avatar Sōkō yumi
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    Default Re: Naval Tactics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ginger Yellow View Post
    Warclaw, is there any simple way to do your more sophisticated T-crossing manoeuvre in Empire? If you stay in line formation, obviously only the lead ship will cross. Do you have to micro each ship?
    formation fail as soon as you pull a maneuver like that.

    however, if you want to be good at naval battles, especially the larger ones like he's illustrated there, micro is a must.

    personally, I only use formations until right before i engage, because it's very difficult to get behind or prevent an enemy from getting behind and individual ship while it's in formation.

  16. #56
    Munifex
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    Default Re: Naval Tactics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MAGNUS454 View Post
    Just cross the T like good old Nelson did! Works a treat. So in game time line up all your chaps and then as the enemy is oncoming just turn your ships 90 degrees to the enemy and rake their ships from front to back. Its also very useful to use the line formation to use the figure 8 tactic around the enemy ships. Just make sure you are aware of the running of the wind and keep with it so you can move and dont loose your speed. As soon as you loose your speed your dead. Just do figure 8s around the enemy in line formation and give him broadsides.

    Another tactic I find is split your fleet into 4th,5th and 6th lines whatever the ships with the most damage output into one group and then your smaller weaker ships into another group. Now this really requires no brains as you use your smaller ships as cannon fodder send them in and get them to fire ball and chain to demast the most powerful enemy ships and leave them to this task, except u will loose some of the smaller ships but you will have taken away the enemies ability to move without sails. Once your cannon fodders has taken a mast our two from some of the enemy capital ships sail your undamaged more powerful group in and rake the enemy, I use my bigger ships at this point to rake the demasted capital ships with cannister shot to kill the enemy crew and then because the enemy cant escape I just board them with more crew and take their ships and hey ho you have more ships as your booty! Hope this helps, works for me anyways

    Mag
    Nelson did not cross the T at Trafalgar. He actually got his own T crossed on purpose. Nelson knew his fleet was far superior to the French/Spanish fleet on a ship to ship basis. His men were much better sailors and gunmen. The French and Spanish, moreover, knew this as well which must not have been very good for morale. They did have him outnumbered, however, 33 to 27 which included 4 Spanish first raters, one with 136 guns.

    Nelson's plan therefore was to negate their numbers advantage and to rely on his superior crews. In a very light wind, he divided his ships into two lines and sailed right at the French/Spanish line. While exposed for up to forty minutes to fire from the Allied line, little damage was done. The Victory's line intersected the French fleet just behind the French flagship cutting off the remaining two thirds of the fleet. The second line cut off the last third of the allied line. His orders were to then engage ship to ship capturing as many as possible. In the end, the allies lost 22 of the 33 many of which were captured. Excepting the flagship, the first section of the allied line never engaged, deciding discretion was indeed the better part of valor.

    The quintessential historical crossing of the T was performed by Admiral Heihachiro Togo at the battle of Tsushima. Out of 28 Russian ships, only 1 cruiser and 2 destroyers escaped.

    Crossing the T began to matter more as naval guns improved. In the day of the all big gun battleships after the British built Dreadnaught in 1905, getting your T crossed meant annihilation.

    Oh and for those of you wondering why, but who don't want to ask, its just simple math with more being better. By crossing the enemies T you bring the full weight of your broadsides to bare on the first couple ships in the enemy line while they can only reply with their forward batteries and from only the first ships.

    It works Ok in the game but the range on the cannon isnt really long enough to do it right. If you can actually get across their bows though, your in for a good day, just make sure you have a broadside ready. I have noticed that if you can manage to shoot them in the rear, it does alot of damage. I divide my ships into two lines and which ever line they turn towards, my other line swoops in and rakes them in their backsides. works pretty well but not all the time as two lines are difficult to manage.
    Last edited by cspimp; March 09, 2009 at 01:38 PM.

  17. #57
    Quixote07's Avatar Kitani
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    Default Re: Naval Tactics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Tormunda View Post
    Playing PotBS helped a lot....
    My best Naval fight so far?

    Me : 1 British Sloop
    Them: 6 French Brigs and Traders.

    I sunk 2, crippled 1, got 2 tangled up and then the last managed to board me and capture me Took me 1 hr 40 mins......

    I lost, but not bad for a sloop
    Man, I hope you saved a replay

  18. #58
    Murakawa
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    Default Re: Naval Tactics Thread

    I haven't done Naval Battles much as yet, but doesn't broadsiding "down the throat" actually waste a lot of shots in this game? It seemed to cause a lot more splashes than firing at will.

  19. #59
    S-te-Fan's Avatar Equites Cohortales
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    Default Re: Naval Tactics Thread

    Light galleys are WAY overpowered... . In my Venice campaign I own fourth rates with those ships.

  20. #60
    Warclaw's Avatar Wimmer
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    Default Re: Naval Tactics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ginger Yellow View Post
    Warclaw, is there any simple way to do your more sophisticated T-crossing manoeuvre in Empire? If you stay in line formation, obviously only the lead ship will cross. Do you have to micro each ship?

    Generally, yes you will need to manage each ship. If there was an option for all of your ships to make a right or left hand turn at the same time (Such as in the WWI ship combat emulator 'Jutland') you'd still need to be careful, because the position your ships must aim for may be different depending on the speed of your ships.

    IE:

    A slower ship would need to sail right AT an enemy ship sometimes, in order to slip into the gap.

    Example:


    One of the common mistakes people make is aiming for the gap. Unfortunetly by the time they arrive, the gap is gone and they are point-blank with the bow of their ship lined up with the enemy's hull for a broadside.



    It must be carefully timed and managed based on the speed and manueverability of your ships, but if done correctly can end a fight in that one manuever.
    Last edited by Warclaw; March 09, 2009 at 04:25 PM.

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