All Horizons - Total War

[Ketzerfreund]

All Horizons - Total War

This proposal was spawned by the old thread about a world-map-completion mod, which I have just requested to be locked, because the discussion there actually went around two different goals better suited to be kept as seperate projects.

The scope of this mod shall be adding to the vanilla game what is actually missing, according to what was historically possible and of reasonable interest regarding the timeframe E:TW is set in.
Such as a complete African continent due to the vast strategic importance of the "way around it" and the Brazilian trade theatre (and possibly others) made into a "real one" and the like.

Africa and South America are definitely the first two positions on the list, with a further development of the area of the East Indies (which, as far as I know, is also just a trade theatre) as a most probable third.

And yes, that also means that there will be Terra Incognita. No colonies in the middle of the Sahara.
Added regions will have to get their factions, of course, but all in the scope of the vanilla game. Not each backwater tribe in the middle of nowhere will get it's own faction status, let alone culture definition.

The goal of this mod is to add to the vanilla game, not throwing it out of the window completely.

Of course, if the number of factions/cultures/regions/unit types per faction/etc.pp.pp.pp. is without limits like the maximum number of men per unit showed to be, then this might one day be gigantic. Only then adding places like Australia and - gosh! - China become a viable option.


Since there may be quite a bit of discussion about whether there should be any Terra Incognita at all and how great the range of possibility for colonisation should be, a Terra-Incognita-free version could be released as a submod to the more reasonable, historical one. Of course, the historical one will have the higher priority, since, well, it could reach a playable state much quicker.

Please do take a look at the former thread linked above for an overview on what has been discussed so far.


Personnel needed:


Researchers: People who know this timeframe well should provide information about how far the reach of this timeframe's cultures went from a reasonable point of view.
Also, info on the potential factions and viable region partition of the added areas of the world need to be discussed.

Mappers: Actually, those who contribute to the World Map Community Project are automatically mappers for this mod. However, since this project does have priorities on certain regions of the world, those mappers who would be particularly interested in this project are free to push forward the interests of this mod.

Modellers: Units, ships, buildings of added factions/cultures.


So, who is with me?

-Der Ketzerfreund.

[Koon]

Whoo, first post in the new thread?

Glad you split the project up into these two parts, seems like it'll work a lot easier now. I'd be glad to work as a Researcher and Mapper if you'd have me . I'd like to think I'm pretty well versed in this time period, particularly in areas and border changes. I'm a bit new to mapping, however, if its similar to Medieval 2, I'm sure I could get the hang of it quick.

One question: Will this mod also potentially include adding in new provinces to the existing maps? Obviously it'd probably need some balancing, but maybe it could help get rid of the big issue of small factions getting eliminated immediately because they only have one province.

[Ketzerfreund]

Unfortunately mapping is - as far as can be seen now - a lot harder than before, since there's a huge heap of modelling involved. Take a look; where I had been very happy first after finding masks that contain the whole world, this happiness was dumbed down when I realised that the actual campaign map sonsisted of models. At least all those meshes point at it.
Still, some day more map material will be made, too many mods out there just rely on it.

~ Believe! ~

[Ramsay]

I wouldn't mind chipping in with research, history being a lifelong obsession of mine. I don't have ETW yet because my computer isn't up to it, but I would love to be able to launch straight into a decently researched mod when I buy it. Given my experience of playing mods for RTW and M2TW, such gaming delicacies are bound to be forthcoming!

So how do we go about it, oh friend of heretics?

[Ketzerfreund]

The first two positions on the list, as mentioned, are Africa and South-America, so I'd say let's begin there.

We need to know the nature of indigenous factions in Africa and South-America (note, we can't just recreate every single tribe, stick to ethnically related groups first).

Find out about their lifestyle and internal organisation for designing the buildings and, of course, the units and a bit about their behaviour as a people for the a.i. profile (expansionistic? traders? warriors?).

Research the layout of their respective homelands as well as the layout of the colonies existing/created during the 18th century by the European powers.
With this together with game-play considerations we can plan a reasonable region layout for the campaign map.


[Edit:] The fact that Switzerland isn't in the game has just crossed my mind! Yeah, research Switzerland, too!
At least we do know that they are not expansionistic and would never sell military passage allowances.

[Edit2:] Also, find out about how far colonisation could realistically go. What colonisations that did not occur during the 18th century would've actually been reasonable? We need to know that so we can decide about where to leave Terra Incognita = impassable terrain, such as African inlands.

[XiombargDei]

I'm in ! i would like to be researcher for the African part. doing some quick research on the net tells me that we cannot really speak about colonies in sub-saharian Africa. its more like small but wealthy trading post around what is now the Senegal. The brits had a foothold there too. France for example also had some islands on the east african coast (Seychelles, Reunion) and also a grip on India, which do not appear in the game at all.

How do you want the info to be presented ? here as a post in this thread ? some kind of detailled list in Word document ? tell me what would suit you the better.

ho and btw! if we make africa there will be the slavery problem ... which can be really hard to deal with right ? slaves were considered as a simple ressource as you know, meaning money and unrest. and there are other ressources like gum, peanuts, skins, dye to add.

well lets get stated with some basic geography and ethnology

[Duhead]

I am of the opinion that the real Imperial Era was the 19th century, the age of Napoleon and the British Empire, where every great nation was scrambling for land and ports, and when the great minds of the world gave birth to the Industrial Revolution.

Here is my WIP outline of the political landscape (right now only a few major European powers)

Theatres:

• North/Central America and the Caribbean
• South America
• Europe/Russia/Mediterranean Africa
• Sub-Saharan Africa
• Southeast Asia
• India
• East Asia
• Australia

Factions in Europe and their Colonies:

• The United Kingdom
  
  • Bengal, in India
  • Canada, in North America
  • Gibraltar and Malta, on Mediterranean
  • British Guinea, in South America
  • Honduras, in Central America
  • Jamaica, Bahamas and Trinidad in Caribbean
  • New South Wales and Tasmania in Australia
  • Gambia, Sierra Leone and Capetown, in Africa
• France
  
  • French Guinea, in South America
  • Windward Islands, Haiti, Tobago in Caribbean
  • Senegal, Cote d'Ivore in Africa
• Spain
  
  • Paraguay, Uruguay, Argentina, Chile, Peru, Venezuela, Colombia, Ecuador, and Bolivia in South America
  • New Spain (Mexico, California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas), in Central America
  • Cuba, Santo Domingo, Puerto Rico in the Caribbean
  • Philippines, in Southeast Asia
• Portugal
  
  • Brazil, in South America
  • Angola and Mozambique in Africa
  • Goa, in India
• Russia
  
  • Siberia, in East Asia
  • Alaska, in North America
• Denmark
  
  • Iceland, Faroe Islands, in European Arctic Ocean
  • Greenland, in North America
  • Virgin Islands, in Caribbean
  • Ghana, in Africa
• United Netherlands
  
  • Sumatra, Batavia, Mollucas in Southeast Asia

[Ketzerfreund]

XiombargDei, just go ahead as you think is well readable and organised. That goes for all researchers. I'll sweep through this thread regularly and edit everything into the opening post over time.


Thanks for the overview, Duhead. But didn't Russia really open up Siberia through development of railway routes since the 19th century?


Regarding Portugal - I wonder why Brazil hasn't been included. This is the colonial status of Portugal in 1700, after all:


Having Brazil not in the game is a huge miss, given how established that colony had already been then.

[lesterthenerd]

why not call the mod New Horizons.

[Ketzerfreund]

Due to the history of this proposal.
It had been coupled with the making of a complete world-map in the beginning before Empire had been released (read the old thread). And it's about all those horizons reasonably approachable in this timeframe.

"All Horizons" is surely still better than "world-map-completion-mod".

[XiombargDei]

I've been doing some quick research on the west african area. Basicaly, the first to visit the region were the portuguese, followed and most of the time defeated by netherlands. France had some trade posts in Senegal, Guinea and Ivory Coast, British mainly in Ghana and Guinea too. But the two main powers here in 1700 are portuguese and netherlands. We can also notice very few danes here and there.
As for local powers, we have 3 empires north of the west african coast, in what is now Mauritania, Mali and Chad.
In 1700 there is quite nothing known west of Burkina Fasso and South of Congo, except for Angola which is mainly a slave trade post owned by the portuguese dans netherlands (again).

I also found very intersting maps or the area

As of 1730


As of 1813


As of 1828


1 - Saint-Louis du Sénégal

established : 1659 by the French on an island in the Senegal river (north border). first european city in western africa
trade : gold gum ivory slaves

1bis - Goré Island
Small island on the coast south of Saint-Louis, established in 1617 by netherlands, took by the french in 1677
trade : important slave trade center. also trade gold, gum, peanuts, leathers and spices.

2 - Albreda, Gambie


established by the french in 1681, given to the brits in 1857.
small slave trade post, controlling the river gambia.

3 - Benin

first established by the english in 1650. thereafter lots of european powers came for trade : french, netherlands, danes, especialy the french starting in 1704. region known as Dahomey at that time

4 - Burkina Fasso

may be known as haute-Volta in the XVIII
mainly an African Kingdom, not much contact before mid XVIII by the french. became a french protectorate in 1896

5 - Cameroun

first contact with the portuguese in 1472, then with netherlands, and much later with the germans. became a german protectorate in 1896. given to the french after WWI.
It has never been much colonized though because of swamps and diseases.
the region was controled by the Bamoun Kingdom, could be a good place for an african power.

6 - Central Africa

discovered by the Belgian in 1886, then shared between Belgium and France. not much to say, is terra incognita in the XVIII

7 - Tchad

not colonized at that time. was the place of the muslim Ouaddaï kingdom. need more info

8 - Congo

discovered by the portuguese in the late XVth, then colonized by the french from 1875. was an important trade center.

9 - Gabon

first contact by the portuguese late XVth, then netherlands tried to establish a fort in the mid XVIth, which was destroyed by local tribe. European powers only had trade posts there, trading ivory ebony and slaves. Local king Denis Rapontchombo allowed the french to officialy establish there in 1839.

10 - Guinea

trade posts for ivory, spices and slaves. lots of european powers there mainly portugueses and netherlands. Contact with the declining Malinese empire. area mainly islamic

11 - Ivory Coast

portuguese, netherlands franch and english. mainly for slaves and ivory.

12 - Mali

in the XVIIth, high place of the Segou-Bambara Kingdom, half muslim and half animist, very expansionist.

13 - Mauritanie

another great local power, founded by the Beni-Hassane tribe. 100% muslim this time.

14 - Niger

Kanem-Bornou empire. basicaly Tchad + Niger

15 - Togo

mainly portuguese and danes, no local power in the area. There is also in this area what is now the Ghana, the Gold Coast (portuguese, then conquered by netherlands in 1637, then given to the brits in 1870) and Benin (Dahomey)

[Gwyn ap Nud]

I was pretty active in the mother thread of this one, and so am posting interest here. One thing we need to decide is whether we think that the idea of having so few regions in parts of the world works in Vanilla or not, and whether we want to change that. Thoughts, anyone?

[XiombargDei]

I was pretty active in the mother thread of this one, and so am posting interest here. One thing we need to decide is whether we think that the idea of having so few regions in parts of the world works in Vanilla or not, and whether we want to change that. Thoughts, anyone?

what do you mean by "so few regions" ? you mean in the new regions like Africa and South America ? historicaly each of these regions could have at least as many regions as vanilla India. each theater should be like a game on its own

IMO one of the big problem will be balancing the whole thing. Its useless to bring new regions in if one can just blitzkrieg it and get 40 regions more, 500k income a turn and thats it... for example there could be weather effects, western powers suffering from heat and diseases, food-limited recruitment (you can not have more than x units in a given region) and the local powers will have to use mass, when i say mass i mean MASS, against your gunpowder troops.

[Indiana_Jones]

Make sure you stick New Zealand in!

compelete with the local natives =D

[Gwyn ap Nud]

What I mean is how they set up their map, especially in europe. Do we want to keep the 1-region France, or do we want to split it up?

[waronmars]

I take it you are using the map from the world map community project for this. How many factions with unique models are you planning to add?

I don't know if this is significant or not, but there are a bunch of splines that seem to relate to maps in the models.pack/rigidmodels/campaignborders . There are all in .rigid_spline format...is there any idea about these files?

[XiombargDei]

I found much interesting historical Africa maps here

[XiombargDei]

Ok i have been woking a bit on what is known as the Gold Coast, Ghana.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

the next is a map I made using this source and this source. It shows the European settlements on the Gold Coast in 1700. It may not be 100% accurate still, especialy on the historical names. Most of those locations are only defensive forts, the only that could be considered as town are Christianborg and Elmia. Another thing to know is that the Prussian lost their settlements to the Dutch around 1720. french and brits came later.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

So why the Gold Coast ? because it is the center of the european trade centers in west africa. the coast is good for ships to anchor, there is o swamps meaning no malaria, the local tribes are willing to cooperate. On the west is the Ivory coast which i will detail later, on the west Benin. the further south you go, the more jungles, swamps and bad conditions you find. the more north you go, the more french and portuguese you find.

As for local powers here, i did not search this much, but you can consider them mostly as barbarians. On the east though you can find the Dahomey Kingdom in what is now Benin. In the north you will find the rest of the Mali Empire and other great muslim desert tribes powers.

More details to come

question : should i also post this in the historical research center ?

[Falcon_12]

XiombargDei, just go ahead as you think is well readable and organised. That goes for all researchers. I'll sweep through this thread regularly and edit everything into the opening post over time.


Thanks for the overview, Duhead. But didn't Russia really open up Siberia through development of railway routes since the 19th century?


Regarding Portugal - I wonder why Brazil hasn't been included. This is the colonial status of Portugal in 1700, after all:


Having Brazil not in the game is a huge miss, given how established that colony had already been then.

Indeed, in 1700 Brazil colonial population was bigger than the NA colonial population.

Kieran Bridgen said that in truth, CA wanted to represent Brazil but the map was already so incredibly large they had to settle for the trade theatre venue.

Still, its an enormous loss as it was the theatre of skirmishes between portuguese spanish dutch and french, not to mention the huge amounts of gold that came out of it right to portuguese pockets. In game, we get a lousy trade ship on it, what a consolation prize

[Falcon_12]

I've been doing some quick research on the west african area. Basicaly, the first to visit the region were the portuguese, followed and most of the time defeated by netherlands. France had some trade posts in Senegal, Guinea and Ivory Coast, British mainly in Ghana and Guinea too. But the two main powers here in 1700 are portuguese and netherlands. We can also notice very few danes here and there.
As for local powers, we have 3 empires north of the west african coast, in what is now Mauritania, Mali and Chad.
In 1700 there is quite nothing known west of Burkina Fasso and South of Congo, except for Angola which is mainly a slave trade post owned by the portuguese dans netherlands (again).

portuguese dans netherlands? Whats that supposed to mean, it was portuguese period.