View Poll Results: Were Poland, Russia and France justified to take land from Germany?

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  • Yes, they were. Germany should stay with it's current borders.

    86 35.25%
  • No, they weren't. Germany should return to it's previous borders.

    73 29.92%
  • Situation is complicated. Thus I'm completly neutral.

    58 23.77%
  • I don't give a damn.

    27 11.07%
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Thread: Did Poland, France and Russia 'steal' the land from Germany?

  1. #21
    ★Bandiera Rossa☭'s Avatar The Red Menace
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    Default Re: Do Poland, France and Russia 'stole' the land from Germany?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phunkracy View Post
    Death camps? Barbarity of German troops? Nazi's ideology? Extermination of 'minor races' on industrial scale?
    Most of the land was lost after WW1..although I do not condone what the Germans did during WW2, I do sympathize with their desire to get their land back.


  2. #22
    WehrWolf's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: Do Poland, France and Russia 'stole' the land from Germany?

    Quote Originally Posted by Volh Vseslavich View Post
    Maybe they shouldn't have started the WW1 at first place?
    We didn't start WWI. But since we gave our support to Austro-Hungary, a chain reaction started... learn something about WWI, really you can't blame the Germans for having started WWI. In the beginning it was something between Austria and Serbia, but since those two had allies a chain reaction started.

    Quote Originally Posted by Volh Vseslavich View Post
    Yes they do. Its not like Russia annexed all of Easter Germany. After all they had to repair at least part of devastation they caused to Russia.
    Germany started the war with Russia, which took 20 millions of Russian lives (I'm not even talking about financial damage). Its completly Germany's fault in their defeat, therefore Russia and Poland annexing parts of Germany are completly justified.
    The SU would have started the war either way, Stalin wouldn't have tolerated the status quo in Europe. We just anticipated the declaration of war by the SU. In the 20th century it isn't justified to annex territory, which belonged to the German heartlands. But the Allied were fine with this decision, since they thought to rot out German militarism with the destruction of Prussia, allthough Prussia stood for much more than that.

    You can consult any statistics out there, communism and Stalin caused more deaths than Hitler! Even to the Russians themselves, Stalin is responsible for far more dead Russians or citizen of the SU than Hitler, and I'm not a supporter of Hitler.
    Last edited by WehrWolf; February 22, 2009 at 08:57 PM.
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  3. #23

    Default Re: Do Poland, France and Russia 'stole' the land from Germany?

    Quote Originally Posted by WehrWolf View Post

    The SU would have started the war either way, Stalin wouldn't have tolerated the status quo in Europe. We just anticipated the declaration of war by the SU. In the 20th century it isn't justified to annex territory, which belonged to the German heartlands. But the Allied were fine with this decision, since they thought to rot out German militarism with the destruction of Prussia, allthough Prussia stood for much more than that.
    Well then, maybe in your alternate world of "ifs" and "would have's" your argument "would" be valid. Fact is that Germany invaded the Soviet Union, not the other way around.

    And after exterminating Poles for several years it's only fair that Germany gave up some of its land (most of which was originally Polish anyway).

    As for Prussia, well consider it the smallest compensation the SU could have possibly asked for after Germany tried to anhialate Belarussian, Russian and Ukrainian people (among others).

  4. #24

    Default Re: Do Poland, France and Russia 'stole' the land from Germany?

    Quote Originally Posted by WehrWolf View Post
    We didn't start WWI. But since we gave our support to Austro-Hungary, a chain reaction started... learn something about WWI, really you can't blame the Germans for having started WWI. In the beginning it was something between Austria and Serbia, but since those two had allies a chain reaction started.
    Makes sence. But still, that does not justify Germany starting WW2 by attacking Poland in 1939 and USSR in 1941.


    The SU would have started the war either way, Stalin wouldn't have tolerated the status quo in Europe. We just anticipated the declaration of war by the SU.
    There is no evidence that such plans existed, not in 1930s-40s.

    In the 20th century it isn't justified to annex territory, which belonged to the German heartlands. But the Allied were fine with this decision, since they thought to rot out German militarism with the destruction of Prussia, allthough Prussia stood for much more than that.
    In 20th century behavior of Germany wasn't justified in much bigger extent. Germany started the war, caused a lot of damage and lost. If anyone Germany should blame for loss of Prussia - its their own leadership, who was stupid enough to attack USSR in 1941.

    You can consult any statistics out there, communism and Stalin caused more deaths than Hitler! Even to the Russians themselves, Stalin is responsible for far more dead Russians or citizen of the SU than Hitler, and I'm not a supporter of Hitler.
    No, he is not. Unless, of chourse, you can provide some numbers from a credible source.

  5. #25
    WehrWolf's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: Do Poland, France and Russia 'stole' the land from Germany?

    Quote Originally Posted by ivan_the_terrible View Post
    Well then, maybe in your alternate world of "ifs" and "would have's" your argument "would" be valid. Fact is that Germany invaded the Soviet Union, not the other way around.
    It's not an alterante world, you're just too tuinnel viewed to admit, that the SU would have also attacked Germany... only later

    Quote Originally Posted by ivan_the_terrible View Post
    And after exterminating Poles for several years it's only fair that Germany gave up some of its land (most of which was originally Polish anyway).
    What are you talking about? Germans didn't exterminate the Poles, and don't play the innocent, Russians had their share on Poland and let's not forget the brutal suppression of whole Eastern Europe after WW2.

    Quote Originally Posted by ivan_the_terrible View Post
    As for Prussia, well consider it the smallest compensation the SU could have possibly asked for after Germany tried to anhialate Belarussian, Russian and Ukrainian people (among others).
    well we had to pay a lot more compensation than that, German civilians were slaughtered and raped in masses by the Soviets, German POWS were executed or had to work to death, Germany didn't only loose lots of its heartlands, it also was divided thanks to th SU, and last but not least Germany also had to pay monetary compensation after WW2...
    Last edited by WehrWolf; February 22, 2009 at 09:56 PM.
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  6. #26

    Default Re: Do Poland, France and Russia 'stole' the land from Germany?

    It all depends on who was living there in 1939. If it was mostly German then yes the lands are German. The right to land belongs to its inhabitants and no one else. That being said, I don't believe Germany should revert its borders because it no longer has a German population there.

  7. #27
    WehrWolf's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: Do Poland, France and Russia 'stole' the land from Germany?

    Quote Originally Posted by Volh Vseslavich View Post
    Makes sence. But still, that does not justify Germany starting WW2 by attacking Poland in 1939 and USSR in 1941.
    yes I agree, WWI didn't justify the attack on the SU in WWII and by no means the way of how we actualy fought at the east front can be justified.

    Quote Originally Posted by Volh Vseslavich View Post
    There is no evidence that such plans existed, not in 1930s-40s.
    It's not a question of evidence, it's a qestion of pure common sense. Do you really think that Stalin would have tolerated fascist Germany owning almost whole Europe? the fight between fascism and communism for supremacy was inevitable.


    Quote Originally Posted by Volh Vseslavich View Post
    In 20th century behavior of Germany wasn't justified in much bigger extent. Germany started the war, caused a lot of damage and lost. If anyone Germany should blame for loss of Prussia - its their own leadership, who was stupid enough to attack USSR in 1941.
    I never wanted to justify the behavior of Germany, one can't... but therefore if the SU was any better than Nazi Germany it shouldn't have adapted similiar mehtods.


    Quote Originally Posted by Volh Vseslavich View Post
    No, he is not. Unless, of chourse, you can provide some numbers from a credible source.
    I leave that to yourself to find out... there are plenty of sources. Even Khrushchev (Никита Сергеевич Хрущёв) knew, that Stalin was a criminal who killed masses of innocent Soviet population and he was the one to put an end to the Stalin cult (he must have had reasons for that, don't you think?)
    Last edited by WehrWolf; February 22, 2009 at 10:04 PM.
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  8. #28

    Default Re: Do Poland, France and Russia 'stole' the land from Germany?

    1. The Germans did try to exterminate the Poles. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_cr...t_ethnic_Poles
    They also viewed them as sub-human.

    2. Germany started WWII by invading Poland without justification. Combined with the above, there is no moral high ground for you.

    3. Given your "hypothetical" situations, here is one of my own. Had Germany won the war, you can be sure as hell that they would have annexed or vassalized the conquered nations. This is merely the reverse of reality. You lost, therefore your spoils go to the victors.

    Finally, if you can blame my ancestors for "stealing your land", I can blame yours for trying to exterminate my people since before Bismarck.

    Edit: As for the SU being better than Germany, why should it be? An eye for an eye, and even that wasn't fulfilled entirely.
    Last edited by Flavius; February 22, 2009 at 09:57 PM.




  9. #29

    Default Re: Do Poland, France and Russia 'stole' the land from Germany?

    It's not a question of evidence, it's a qestion of pure common sense. Do you really think that Stalin would have tolerated fascist Germany owning almost whole Europe? the fight between fascism and communism for supremacy was inevitable.
    Stalin wasn't an idealist. He was okay to ally with US and UK, so he wouldn't start a war with Germany just because they were national-socialist.
    I never wanted to justify the behavior of Germany, one can't... but therefore if the SU was any better than Nazi Germany it shouldn't have adapted similiar mehtods.
    SU didn't use same methods. Soviet union didn't mass kill or enslave Germans.
    I leave that to yourself to find out... there are plenty of sources. Even Khrushchev (Никита Сергеевич Хрущёв) knew, that Stalin was a criminal who killed masses of innocent Soviet population and he was the one to put an end to the Stalin cult (he must have had reasons for that, don't you think?)
    First of all, Khrushev was Stalin's opponent. Therefore, no wonder he would blackmail Stalin after his death. Therefore, Khrushev isn't more credible than US leasers or any other Stalin's opponents.

  10. #30

    Default Re: Do Poland, France and Russia 'stole' the land from Germany?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phunkracy View Post
    There are few people in this forum who claim that due to events of war Poland, Russia and stole German land. Main controversies are regarding following terrains:
    ...
    In Russia:
    -Prussia/Preussen/Kaliningrad Oblast with capital in Koenigsberg

    Was it justified or not? Who's guilty of stealing German land?
    What to do with it now?
    We know, what to do with it now. We shall continue to own it and me is going to buy himself a nice countryhouse by the seaside there when I'm ready to retire from moscow babylon madness.
    And my humble opinion is that it is noone else buisness what to do with these lands now and I'm not asking or willing for anybody's "justification" or "approval" on this matter.
    Sincerely Yours,
    from Muscovy.

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  11. #31
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    Default Re: Do Poland, France and Russia 'stole' the land from Germany?

    Quote Originally Posted by WehrWolf View Post
    We didn't start WWI. But since we gave our support to Austro-Hungary, a chain reaction started... learn something about WWI, really you can't blame the Germans for having started WWI. In the beginning it was something between Austria and Serbia, but since those two had allies a chain reaction started.
    Germany did start WW1. Austria-Hungary mobilised against Serbia and presented an ultimatum, Russia mobilised against Austria-Hungary - but didn't attack. Germany then invaded France. This happened because the German mobilisation plan assumed a war against France and Russia, so it delivered forming armies directly to the French border to carry out the Schlieffen Plan.

    For an illustration of the inflexibility of the mobilisation plans, see Wiki under July Crisis
    On August 1, German discussions regarding declaring war on Russia were interrupted when at 4:23PM a telegram from the German Ambassador to Britain arrived with a planned British proposal to guarantee the neutrality of France and thus limit the war to one fought in the east. Despite opposition from the German military, Germany immediately accepted the proposal by telegrams at the ambassadorial and royal levels." In keeping with this decision, Kaiser Wilhelm II demanded his generals shift the mobilization to the east. Helmuth von Moltke (the younger), the German Chief of General Staff, told him that this was impossible, to which the Kaiser replied "Your uncle would have given me a different answer!" Instead, it was decided to mobilize as planned and cancel the planned invasion of Luxembourg. Once mobilization was complete the army would redeploy to the east.
    Last edited by Juvenal; February 23, 2009 at 03:40 AM.
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  12. #32

    Default Re: Do Poland, France and Russia 'stole' the land from Germany?

    The Flavius writed everything I wanted except to remind our Russian Friends about Ribentrop-Molotov pact and Soviet Agression on Poland started on 17 IX 1939; and the fact that before 22 VI 1941 Soviet Union was close ally of III Reich (Finns and Romanians can say something about this too). Hitler cheated Stalin but lost the war so Vae Victis. The lands lost by Germany are just compensation.
    Germans have no right to excuse nazi atrocities by comunists crimes becouse vast mayority of Lenin and Stalin victims were Russians and/or soviet subjects not Germans and Nazis murderdered many times more "Soviets" than vice versa. All this historical revisionism is appaling.




  13. #33
    boofhead's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Do Poland, France and Russia 'stole' the land from Germany?

    Any nation that loses a war or wars risks a loss of territory.

    And ing about getting it back later on when you were on the belligerent side in the first place is a bit rude. That's their folly and the price they pay.

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Do Poland, France and Russia 'stole' the land from Germany?

    the posts are flip flopping between 2 wars. is the original poll about the territories lost after ww1 or ww2?

  15. #35

    Default Re: Do Poland, France and Russia 'stole' the land from Germany?

    Quote Originally Posted by Juvenal View Post
    Germany did start WW1. Austria-Hungary mobilised against Serbia and presented an ultimatum, Russia mobilised against Austria-Hungary - but didn't attack. Germany then invaded France. This happened because the German mobilisation plan assumed a war against France and Russia, so it delivered forming armies directly to the French border to carry out the Schlieffen Plan.

    For an illustration of the inflexibility of the mobilisation plans, see Wiki under July Crisis
    Er, no. Austria-Hungary declared war on Serbia on the 28th of July, Germany didn't declare war on Russia untill 1 august and France untill the 3rd of August and didn't start it's invasion untill then. Austria-Hungary sent gunships that bombarded Belgrade on the 29th. So no, the war was started by Austro-Hungary.

    Any nation that loses a war or wars risks a loss of territory.

    And ing about getting it back later on when you were on the belligerent side in the first place is a bit rude. That's their folly and the price they pay.
    They weren't any more belligerent than any other of the major nations in starting WWI. Honestly, pinning WWI on the Germans is stupid. The war started because of a huge number of reasons, mainly imperialism. The Russian-Austrian imperialism in the Balcan; German-French imperialism in Africa; German-British competion regarding the world market and navies, etc, etc.
    Last edited by Dr. Croccer; February 23, 2009 at 05:07 AM.
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  16. #36
    seal's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: Do Poland, France and Russia 'stole' the land from Germany?

    I think any rational person would say the spark that set off WWI was between the Serbs and the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Likewise, any rational person realizes that Stalin was as much of a threat to the Russian people as any foreign dictator. Unfortunately, rational thinking is too often put aside when discussing the wars of the twentieth century.

    "To the victors go the spoils." This saying isn't "to the victors, who were aggressed," or "to the victors, who had a politically and morally legitimate reason to go to war." Germany lost WWII (albeit eventually), and Germany lost territory. Because there is neither an outcry in the modern German state for the return of their former territories, nor is there demands for a plebisite in these former territories, the issue is essentially dead.

  17. #37

    Default Re: Do Poland, France and Russia 'stole' the land from Germany?

    Strictly speaking, they indeed stole it. The population of a certain region should be entitled to choose which nation they belong to, that is an act of self-determination. There is no right for territorial compensation after a war.

    However, as we all know, this argument is moot. It has always been "vae victis". Addtionally, the result of such a referendum would depend on its scale, i.e. who is asked, which is impossible to determine correctly. Think of ex-Yugoslavia: The minority of Kosovo-Albanians did not want to live under Serbian rule. Now after the secession, we have a minority of Kosovo-Serbians who do not want to live under Albanian rule...

    To me, the easiest thing to do would be to forget this crap about borders and who took what from whom decades and centuries ago. Just accept the borders as they are, and stop asking stupid questions like this poll does.
    "The cheapest form of pride however is national pride. For it reveals in the one thus afflicted the lack of individual qualities of which he could be proud, while he would not otherwise reach for what he shares with so many millions. He who possesses significant personal merits will rather recognise the defects of his own nation, as he has them constantly before his eyes, most clearly. But that poor blighter who has nothing in the world of which he can be proud, latches onto the last means of being proud, the nation to which he belongs to. Thus he recovers and is now in gratitude ready to defend with hands and feet all errors and follies which are its own."-- Arthur Schopenhauer

  18. #38
    boofhead's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Do Poland, France and Russia 'stole' the land from Germany?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Croccer View Post
    They weren't any more belligerent than any other of the major nations in starting WWI. Honestly, pinning WWI on the Germans is stupid. The war started because of a huge number of reasons, mainly imperialism. The Russian-Austrian imperialism in the Balcan; German-French imperialism in Africa; German-British competion regarding the world market and navies, etc, etc.
    yeah well they lost in the end. Boohoo. I wish the same ethic was applied to the 'occupied territories'. You up, you LOSE. It's funny that......we all condemn belligerents and yet look at the state of Israel.
    Last edited by boofhead; February 23, 2009 at 07:41 AM.

  19. #39
    Barry Goldwater's Avatar Mr. Conservative
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    Default Re: Do Poland, France and Russia 'stole' the land from Germany?

    To the victor go the spoils. As Brennus said...'Vae Victis'.

  20. #40
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    Default Re: Do Poland, France and Russia 'stole' the land from Germany?

    Quote Originally Posted by eisenkopf View Post
    Strictly speaking, they indeed stole it. The population of a certain region should be entitled to choose which nation they belong to, that is an act of self-determination. There is no right for territorial compensation after a war.
    However, there was no formal right for self-determination until the establishment of the United Nations. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't even think Wilson's League of Nations had any formal decree on the subject.

    To me, the easiest thing to do would be to forget this crap about borders and who took what from whom decades and centuries ago. Just accept the borders as they are, and stop asking stupid questions like this poll does.
    Especially when there's no real issue among the people.

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