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Thread: Roma Surrectum 2 Faction Preview - The Dacians

  1. #281

    Default Re: Roma Surrectum 2 Faction Preview - The Dacians

    Here's a pic I found



    Hmm, as far as I no (i'm a history stundent, Romania), the term "falx" isnt dacian...and it is highly possibile that the dacian word "sica" stood for what we now call "falx"...

  2. #282
    Caligula Caesar's Avatar Horse Lord
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    Default Re: Roma Surrectum 2 Faction Preview - The Dacians

    Different mods do different things in different ways and put emphasis in different areas. Enough said
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  3. #283

    Default Re: Roma Surrectum 2 Faction Preview - The Dacians

    Quote Originally Posted by Arges View Post
    Here's a pic I found



    Hmm, as far as I no (i'm a history stundent, Romania), the term "falx" isnt dacian...and it is highly possibile that the dacian word "sica" stood for what we now call "falx"...
    Thanks, if you look at the preview of the Daoi Elite Infantry, you'll see it's based on this picture (it's not in the main preview):

    Last edited by tone; August 22, 2010 at 04:23 PM.


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  4. #284

    Default Re: Roma Surrectum 2 Faction Preview - The Dacians

    Ok Tone, you made my day with this "Daoi Elite Infantry" preview! (BTW, will this guy be present in the game itself?) Although I must warn you :it is highly probable that the image is not historicaly accurate, since it was preview pricture for another game, a Fantasy RPG called "Getica". Ok, here is another few things I would like to add, and please, don't think i'm coplaining (in fact it would be to late for that). First of all i would love to see a real "ELITE", not like Orditon Agema in EB (which is my favorite mod so far) that's cool looking but really weak for a combat elite. Second, the Comatai, or Comati could never afford such a fine longsword like the one from EB, even if they were elite (???) skirmishers; swords like that can be found only in richest dacians tombs of the tarabostes. The comatai used "sica", a common weapon which derived from the an agricultural tool which is the sickle... (tools becoming realible weapons was a common phenomenon in ancient world) Third: Scince when dacians fought in phalanx style formation like in EB..This is, again, untrue, I believe. The dacians unde Dromichaites were able to defeat an Alexander's generals Lisimachos and his heavy phalanx only with light, but extremely fast infantry. And don't forget, that the dacian woodland and terain weren't fit for a phalanx style warfare>>>ambushes, ambushes, ambushes<<< I know that there were found some loooong spears in dacians tombs, but then again - those tombs are rich tombs, and spears like that are exclusive on the former teritory of Dacia. All the ancient mentions about daoi/getai are published in Romania in the first two volumes of "Fontes Historiae Daco-Romanae" which I have read and found no mention about dacians fighting in phalanx style formation.
    Ohhhh, and I love the EB Tarabostes Horsemen, there're pure awesomeness. I dont mean to offend you, but I think they're better than yours; they're looking more dacian and tarabostes like (perhaps it's because your tarabostes don't wear the distinctive tarabostes hat that the guy from my avatar does.
    OK, I think that's enough....I hope maybe someday, someone that is reading this can use this information.
    Last edited by Arges; August 23, 2010 at 08:30 AM.

  5. #285

    Default Re: Roma Surrectum 2 Faction Preview - The Dacians

    Arges:
    The tarabostes in RS2 is in my opinion historically acurate.See this guy:http://www.google.hu/imgres?imgurl=h...:0&tx=77&ty=66

    I don't know what are you want to say with "Dacians should have a more elite loking unit".I think the dacian heavy infantry with the bronze scale armor looks quite elite.Also an infantry unit dosen't have to look elite with shiny armor,..to be really elite.The celtic gaesatae(or naked fanatics) were an almost elite unit,..but still fought naked.

    And I agree with you that the dacians didn't fought in phalanx formation,...but I do believe that they used spearmans.Almost every nation used spears as they are cheap and quite effective(atleast against cavalry).

    If I misunderstood your post,..than my apologies.





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  6. #286

    Default Re: Roma Surrectum 2 Faction Preview - The Dacians

    Quote Originally Posted by Arges View Post
    Ohhhh, and I love the EB Tarabostes Horsemen, there're pure awesomeness. I dont mean to offend you, but I think they're better than yours; they're looking more dacian and tarabostes like (perhaps it's because your tarabostes don't wear the distinctive tarabostes hat that the guy from my avatar does.
    You mean to say that people who can afford body armour would choose to go into battle with a cap instead of a helmet? Wouldn`t a good helmet be just as much a mark of nobility as the pileus? Secondly, what`s the implication then(judging from the cap of the image), that the falxmen were part of the tarabostes class?

  7. #287

    Default Re: Roma Surrectum 2 Faction Preview - The Dacians

    torzsoktamas, when i was talking about the elite I was referring to the EB Orditon Agema, and not how it looks, but their attack and defence abilities in game. And dacians most surely used spearmen. But that's another thing.
    florin, I did'n say that wearing such a hat in battle would be historically accurate, I just said it would be more "dacian" like looking, that is just how i feel. 2 - It is highly unlikely that falxmen were members of the tarabostes "class" - which probably fought as riders, but it is widely known that falxes were high-status weapons, very hard to produce, so only elite warriors (most historians agree that a regiment of falxmen consisted only of few warriors, maybe less than 15, that would also help them fight better since the falx was a big and heavy weapon that needed much space in order to biuld momentum) would bear them, and such warriors could probably wear pilleus
    Last edited by Arges; August 23, 2010 at 10:41 AM. Reason: mistake
    “Long distance running is particularly good training in perseverance.” Mao Zedong

  8. #288

    Default Re: Roma Surrectum 2 Faction Preview - The Dacians

    Quote Originally Posted by Arges View Post
    I did'n say that wearing such a hat in battle would be historically accurate, I just said it would be more "dacian" like looking.
    Yes, but rtw units are about battles only. You don`t see them in "civilian" roles, but only during a fight. That`s why I prefer the choice of helmet instead of the cap.
    most historians agree that a regiment of falxmen consisted only of few warriors, maybe less than 15, that would also help them fight better since the falx was a big and heavy weapon that needed much space in order to biuld momentum
    On what could this be based though? I mean the detailed info about numbers and specific falx regiments.
    would bear them, and such warriors could probably wear pilleus
    So you mean a falxman with a cap would be a reasonable depiction? That`s good to know. Especially since western illustrators have a hard time depicting dacians other than with caps and this means many rtw units have them too.

  9. #289

    Default Re: Roma Surrectum 2 Faction Preview - The Dacians

    1.You're killing me ...i told you, I think they LOOK cooler, and that's it.
    2.Concerning the fighting style of falxmen, it's simple. Since we have no written sources of military experts (Traian's "De bello Dacico" is lost), the only way to understand their tatics is experomental archaeology, and that has been done. The most important thing that we need for such experiment we already have: is the weapon itself. By studying the falx, and the ways it could be used, AND the known tatics applied when using such big blades, this theory has been unveiled. Aaaa, btw, some believe that dacians used the small scythian's triangle formation, in order to penetrate enemy's lines using the devastating power of the falx.
    3. A falxman, even if bare chested, is not necessary poor, as I already said: a man wielding a two-handed falx was most likely an elite warrior. It's all about bravery (dacian's immortal souls) and the psychological effect on the enemy.
    Last edited by Arges; August 23, 2010 at 10:42 AM. Reason: my english is extremely bad
    “Long distance running is particularly good training in perseverance.” Mao Zedong

  10. #290

    Default Re: Roma Surrectum 2 Faction Preview - The Dacians

    Quote Originally Posted by Arges View Post
    1.You're killing me ...i told you, I think they LOOK cooler, and that's it.
    I have to be honest, I don`t know how you`ve managed to reach this age if that`s all that`s needed to roll you over. You need to toughen up a bit because I need you alive for the rest of the discussion.
    3. A falxman, even if bare chested, is not necessary poor, as I already said: a man wielding a two-handed falx was most likely an elite warrior. It's all about bravery (dacian's immortal souls) and the psychological effect on the enemy.
    And how exactly does this work? If the pileus is the attribute of the tarabostes and you`ve already said that the falxmen were unlikely to be part of the aristocracy class why would the falxmen(presumably mostly commoners since there were allegedly only two classes) wear the pileus?
    Do you think that through bravery as you call it one(a commoner/comatus) could rise to the rank of the tarabostes? Or alternatively, that not only the tarabostes would wear the pielus, but distinguished warriors too?
    And one more. If the falx is a very hard to produce and high status weapon and the aristocracy members weren`t the ones likely to use it in battle, this means it was mainly used by the commoners. Then how would the commoners be able to afford it?

  11. #291

    Default Re: Roma Surrectum 2 Faction Preview - The Dacians

    I really can't see your point. As I said, it is highly unlikely for a infantryman to be a tarabostes, who were reach people, and managing to maintain a courser, not a horse used for working routine, was another distinctive sign of wealth. Tarabostes were very, very few, imagine something like barons in Englands at 1215, some kind of japanese warlords. But at the same time i'm sure that falxmen were not commoners, since they owned such a weapon and had the skills to use it. They were professional warriors, and it is unlikely they were poor. And may I remind (read my second post from this thread) you I stated that such a picture of a falxman may not be accurate. What I told you later, is that there could pe an explanantion why falxmen could wear pilleus.
    Now, since it seems you are satisffied with the other points of the discussion, I guess we're done, right?
    “Long distance running is particularly good training in perseverance.” Mao Zedong

  12. #292

    Default Re: Roma Surrectum 2 Faction Preview - The Dacians

    Quote Originally Posted by Arges View Post
    Now, since it seems you are satisffied with the other points of the discussion, I guess we're done, right?
    Well, no..
    What I told you later, is that there could pe an explanantion why falxmen could wear pilleus.
    What is the explanation? I can only see two choices:
    1. the pilleus was not restricted to the tarabostes, but was also worn by other people(like distinguished warriors)
    2. tarabostes would fight as falxmen
    According to you it`s not the second, so is it the first?

  13. #293

    Default Re: Roma Surrectum 2 Faction Preview - The Dacians

    That you have to understand is that archaeology/ancient history is extremely complicated, full of lies and speculations. And you'll never know the whole truth, even if you are provided with written sources.
    “Long distance running is particularly good training in perseverance.” Mao Zedong

  14. #294

    Default Re: Roma Surrectum 2 Faction Preview - The Dacians

    Quote Originally Posted by Arges View Post
    That you have to understand is that archaeology/ancient history is extremely complicated, full of lies and speculations. And you'll never know the whole truth, even if you are provided with written sources.
    I wasn`t asking for the whole truth, but for the argument behind your opinion so that I can consider it too.

  15. #295

    Default Re: Roma Surrectum 2 Faction Preview - The Dacians

    Quote Originally Posted by florin80 View Post
    What is the explanation? I can only see two choices:
    1. the pilleus was not restricted to the tarabostes, but was also worn by other people(like distinguished warriors)
    2. tarabostes would fight as falxmen
    According to you it`s not the second, so is it the first?
    Well, the explanation could be that they were some kind of a distinct, less privileged then tarabostes warrior-class, as simple comatai sheperds i'm sure they were not. They could serve tarabostes somehow like samurays served their warlords (speculation).

    Edit: Yes, the first choice is possible, I think. That is what i was trying to say. Damn my english.

    That is if they wore pilleus, which I never stated they did.
    Last edited by Arges; August 23, 2010 at 12:03 PM.
    “Long distance running is particularly good training in perseverance.” Mao Zedong

  16. #296

    Default Re: Roma Surrectum 2 Faction Preview - The Dacians

    Quote Originally Posted by Arges View Post
    Well, the explanation could be that they were some kind of a distinct, less privileged then tarabostes warrior-class, as simple comatai sheperds i'm sure they were not. They could serve tarabostes somehow like samurays served their warlords (speculation).
    Basically the people enforcing the noble`s rule and guarding his status then. As a consequence they`d be better armed since the noble would probably pay for it. That seems logical to me.
    On the other hand, unless we disregard the correlation between the nobility and the cap and instead consider that it was merely a symbol of wealth or bravery through arms(and not one of blue blood) then it means that nobody in rtw could wear the pileus(since the nobles would wear helmets in battle). Which would be sorta disappointing to me for two reasons. One is that, as I`ve said, many existing rtw units around the community are wearing the cap and another is that the cap indeed adds flavor to the units and gives them their dacian "feel".

  17. #297

    Default Re: Roma Surrectum 2 Faction Preview - The Dacians

    Maybe RTW dacians used metal-strengthened caps ?
    “Long distance running is particularly good training in perseverance.” Mao Zedong

  18. #298
    caratacus's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Roma Surrectum 2 Faction Preview - The Dacians

    I knew from reading, that in Dacian society the aristocracy (tarabostes) alone had the right to cover their heads and wore a Pilleus. Given the deep cutting blow a falx could produce though, it would make the wearing of a helmet extremely sensible thing to do when fighting. However good sense and a warriors codes of conduct on the battlefield are not always mutually conducive to one another or else Celtic warriors wouldn’t have fought completely naked.

    Trajan's Column shouldn't I think be taken to depict Dacians accurately, given it was erected as propaganda to make the Dacians look more barbaric and the depiction of the Dacian king Decebal shows him wearing a cap not a helmet, so it is a mater of significant speculation. There may have been many warriors who had well made and elaborately decorated helms to match their shields, instead of the bare heads and capped the warriors seen on the column. But the caps wouldn’t have been shown at all if they were not worn by a sizeable number of their warriors, but whether this was on the battlefield or not we may never really know.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    The textures in this mode are some of the finest I have seen and the Dacians will certainly be the first faction I will play in Roma Surrectum II

  19. #299
    DarthLazy's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Roma Surrectum 2 Faction Preview - The Dacians

    Komatai have the sica in EB. Its the big bad elites that gets the big sword, but they are weak and too expensive anyway
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  20. #300

    Default Re: Roma Surrectum 2 Faction Preview - The Dacians

    Wow, marvelous work on Dacians, my distant ancestors

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