discussion: Al-Murabitun (The Moors) faction

[RollingWave]

a couple interesting things i found on wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saqaliba

Saqaliba (Arabic: صقالبة, sg. Siqlabi) refers to the Slavs, particularly Slavic slaves and mercenaries in the medieval Arab world, in the Middle East, North Africa, Sicily and Al-Andalus. The Arabic term is a Byzantine loanword: saqlab, siklab, saqlabi etc. is a corruption of Greek Sklavinoi for "Slavs". The word was also often used more generally to refer to all slaves from Central and Eastern Europe.[1]

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Battle_of_Alarcos

The Agzaz were Turkish mercenary archers from the Asian Steppes who worked for the various Middle East nations at that time. In the late 12th century the caliph of Egypt sent an Agzaz army to the Almohad held Tunis but they were defeated and captured. Then, the Almohads gave them the election to serve them as mercenaries, or be executed. Obviously, the Turks chose to serve the Almohads, and they were sent to the Iberian Peninsula in order to cut them from any possible contact with Egyptian agents in the eastern Maghreb. Many of this Agzaz were killed later at the Battle of Las Navas de Tolosa (1212). My source is Batallas decisivas de la Historia de España, Juan Carlos Losada, 2005.

[RollingWave]

also




(for those that want a more detailed look the link is
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Higueruela.jpg
and
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Higueruela.jpg , although the painting is done a little bit after the time period it seems like a reasonably believable protrait)

these two pics depict a battle of the Granadine emirate fighting their Christian foes, from here we can reach a few conclusions.

1. the vast majority of their cavalries were jinet styles (at least the guys fighting were, the oncse marching in the back are armed the same way but appear to have longer spear.)

2. the vast majority of their infantries were shield / spear type armoured spearman and heavy crossbowmans, if the purportion was meant to depict reality than that must have been a pretty heavy crossbow given the size realitive to the wielder.

[RollingWave]

I guess, as a whole, the composition of the Moors faction can generally be broken down into...

1. Berber tribesman: the core of the Almoravid and Almohad dynasties were these guys, in game terms I guess Desert Cav /archer and Berber spear / Lamtuna spear falls into this catagory and more or less Tuareg as well, but the importance of these units seem to gotten too much of a shaft espeically in the more recent SS and RR versions, as they were undoubtably the core of the Moorish armies when they were actually relavent powers . aside from possiblly expanding / redoing some aspect of these units, making them core and more imporant / accessable on the tech tree seems to be the first and foremost priority. most realistic Moors army at least in the early period should have these guys make up the most of their army and play the most important roles, yet that is hardly the case right now. (right now asdie for DA and DC you hardly see any berber units, and Desert Archer is actually a bit tough to access on the tree too)


2. Urban units mostly from Iberia : the Iberian Islamic cities were probably only second to the Italians at the time in Europe (excluding the Byzantiums). thus it stands to reason that that they would also have militas and urban units that were better armed / useful than most catholic factions, at least for the earlier half of the period. indeed the "urban milita" unit is suppose to be something that represent this , except that with the introdcution of many new units to SS this advantage is badly washed out.

The primary wealthy folks in these places were often Arabs , so it's also a bit amusing to see the "Arab Cav and Arab infantry" as a castle unit when they probably should have been depicting wealthier arabs living in the cities of Al-Andalus that could afford better equipments . but this presents a problem especially for the Fatimids who also have Saracen militas for the same depicition. SS have also introduced "Al-Andalus infantry" forever yet this obvious moorish unit is actually not avalible to the Moors. it stands to reason that the Moorish urban roster should be more colorful and diverse than most Catholic factions except maybe those in Italy, at least until the later portions of the game, yet this is hardly so right now.

3. Slave / special units: mostly represneted by the Christian guards / Nubian infantry / Sudanese javlins : aside from these it seemed that the Almohads had a group of surrendered turkish horse archers working for them for awhile, these group were suppose to be at least relatively rare, right now the Nubian is basically the most important spam unit for the Moors. since it's a serious upgrade over spear milita yet it's upkeep is almost the same (but does cost more and longer to build) and also comes at very low level and with a very high replenish rate. while i'm sure the Mooris had plenty of these guys, the rate it is going now seems way too over the top and should be tweaked down. this is probably the area that could use some new unit to make it look more diverse. but as of now it seems ok aside from the avalibiltiy. I think a lot of these units should actually be tied into the caravan building, to more properly reflect that they were part of the slave market trade etc...

just my 2 cents at this. some of the easiest things to do would obviously involve giving the Moors the halberb milita for one thing (since it's already around in other islamic factions anyway) maybe take out the date limit on the urbans. (but start with a lower armour level) , switching the al-andalus infantry to the Moors roster instead of mercenaries (If i understand correctly having them both as merc and a recruitable will take up 2 slots right? ). possibly lowering the Granadine Jinet's recruitment level to that of the arab cav , and switching the arab cav back into the cities again etc...

[RollingWave]

So anyway, a quick thought of a Moorish roster that would have no effect on unit slots yet make them more interesting and at least somewhat closer to historical reality would be....


cities:
spear milita
axe milita arab cav (race tracks) crossbow milita
urban milita (lower starting armour but less limit on starting date?)
halberd milita, al-anladus infantry (maybe)
hand gunners

casltes :

fedual : lamtuna spearman (since they are the almoravid caliphs' clans men in that essence, probably need some stats upgrade though, other feudal units would probably require new units being made, unless someone we want to use Ghulams to fill the hole for now, despite the not quiet accurate historic depiction, they're at least closer to the black guards the various moorish leaders often used than the Faris anyway)

barrack:
spear milita
berber spearman
arab spearman (do we really need this? just heavy spearman maybe? their role and representation overlaps with the al-andalus infantry a lot if we include it)
heavy spearman
Christian guard infantry
sudanese gunners (rename to something like blackguard gunner? )

stable:
desert cav
granadine jinets
granadine lancers (a ugggh unit, questionable historical accuracy and ugly as hell, a potential remove unit IMHO)
Christian guard (if not already in feudal)

range:
Peasant x-bow
Desert archers
heavy archers
granadine x-bows (see Granadine lancers? if possible in the future remove for a higher level foot crossbow?)

caravan: (represents the slave trade units or travelling mercs, especially lower level onces) : relative lower recruitment rate and replenish rate.
Sudanese javlelin / Nubian spearman / tribal warrior (maybe) / tuareg camels

(some of these changes would obviously also effect other islamic factions, such as moving arab cav back into cities, and the concept of having the caravan building involving slave unit is pretty much something that almost all islamic factions should get given that the slave trade was shared, how that work though would obviously be more problematic, we can make it simple or complicated of course)

[Ichon]

Interesting ideas... Arab cavalry and Lamtuna spearmen would be a good core for Moors armies. I like the idea of a cavalry militia available in cities that has semi decent stats for militia cavalry.

Overall Muslim factions have gotten the least attention in SS- not that some aren't cool, K-Shah particularly or have some interesting units though not very historical like camel gunners but the attention to historical accuracy and faction balance isn't as well done for most Muslim factions as most of the Europeans ones though I think some Euro factions are not well portrayed either. Mostly I think its due to most players of SS who contributed to the mod in some way are European and know that history better than Moorish or Middle eastern/Persian history. (aside from Crusades/Byzantinium)

[PedroL]

So anyway, a quick thought of a Moorish roster that would have no effect on unit slots yet make them more interesting and at least somewhat closer to historical reality would be....


cities:
spear milita
axe milita arab cav (race tracks) crossbow milita
urban milita (lower starting armour but less limit on starting date?)
halberd milita, al-anladus infantry (maybe)
hand gunners

casltes :

fedual : lamtuna spearman (since they are the almoravid caliphs' clans men in that essence, probably need some stats upgrade though, other feudal units would probably require new units being made, unless someone we want to use Ghulams to fill the hole for now, despite the not quiet accurate historic depiction, they're at least closer to the black guards the various moorish leaders often used than the Faris anyway)

barrack:
spear milita
berber spearman
arab spearman (do we really need this? just heavy spearman maybe? their role and representation overlaps with the al-andalus infantry a lot if we include it)
heavy spearman
Christian guard infantry
sudanese gunners (rename to something like blackguard gunner? )

stable:
desert cav
granadine jinets
granadine lancers (a ugggh unit, questionable historical accuracy and ugly as hell, a potential remove unit IMHO)
Christian guard (if not already in feudal)

range:
Peasant x-bow
Desert archers
heavy archers
granadine x-bows (see Granadine lancers? if possible in the future remove for a higher level foot crossbow?)

caravan: (represents the slave trade units or travelling mercs, especially lower level onces) : relative lower recruitment rate and replenish rate.
Sudanese javlelin / Nubian spearman / tribal warrior (maybe) / tuareg camels

(some of these changes would obviously also effect other islamic factions, such as moving arab cav back into cities, and the concept of having the caravan building involving slave unit is pretty much something that almost all islamic factions should get given that the slave trade was shared, how that work though would obviously be more problematic, we can make it simple or complicated of course)

I already put a Roster here in this thread
Take a look:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...=227269&page=3

[RollingWave]

I know you did Pedro, like I pointed out in the first paragrpah, this list is composed in the matter that would first and foremost consider possibility of getting it done quickly without ...

a. making new units.
b. moving around unit slots to the point where it would have problems with already badly stressed unit slots (right now I think Point blank said there are no unit slot left at all.

a complete overhaul would obviously be even better, but as of now, at lest make the obvious things like having Berber spearmen be the most common unit for a serious early Moorish army etc...

[RollingWave]

a very very interesting article
http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/articles/cook.htm

some scholars concluded - very wrongly - that firearms could not possibly have come into Moroccan possession before the very late fifteenth or early sixteenth century.22

When Affonso then siezed Qasr-s-Saghir the next year, the Sultanate reacted quickly. The Moroccan Wazir, head of the Banu Wattas faction and deputy to the Banu Marin Sultan, responding to the appeals of his commanders to 'come with the army and break the walls with your bombards and siege engines', fielded at least 32 guns for the counter-siege.32 Moroccan soldiers armed with hand-guns also came to Portuguese attention for the first time during this makhzan-led campaign against occupied Qsar-s-Saghir.33

Conversely, Moroccan artillery almost vanishes from the records. The lack of documentation for the 1460s, which covers the Marinid-Wattasid wars, is particularly disheartening, given comparative developments in other Islamic lands. The Hafsid Caliphate of Tunis, for example, had a corps of arquebusier infantry and a gun forge by the end of the decade.40

Then, in the 1490s, despite the belittling comments of European observers, we again get glimpses of Moroccan gunpowder weapons in action, starting with a mention by Africanus that the Wattasid Sultan installed 100 makhzan arquebusiers at Larache after the Graciosa campaign.

Leo found a new development-the proliferation of firearms among tribes and polities who would submit to neither Lisbon nor Fez nor any other aspiring outside dominator.

Among the people of the Dra'a valley are many chiefs who are now always at war ... these folk here use firearms, the arquebuse and the espingard [an older Spanish handgun], and I have never seen such finely decorated guns. With these weapons, they kill each other all day longs.51

[RollingWave]

also

The impression of Moroccan vulnerability seems self-evident. The only cannon identified at Ceuta - which, by the way, is also the first confirmation of a gunpowder artillery weapon in Moroccan hands – came not from accounts of the combat, but in a victor's inventory of loot:

found in the city and dockyards - four galleys and a royal galley, plenty of darts, arrows, arbalests and bucklers, one bombard, much gunpowder, tallow, wax, anchors, cordage, masts, tillers, all in abundance.20

[RollingWave]

In unit terms, I suppose the camel gunners was suppose to represent the Berbers tribesman after fire arm proliferation amoung the tribes in the late 15th early 16th century, so I guess in that sense it works ok though the term jezail can be highly misleading as that term mostly came up much later and we have no clue if that they used guns on camels or simply on foot.

judging from the studies above though, we can gather that..

a. Moorish factions did have Arquebus, at least when their faction is relatively stable (which is a lot more problematic, as the Berber/ Arab tribes were inherently pretty unstable), though generally in much fewer numbers than western counterparts. but that probably had more to do with their relative state strength than anything else.

b. they almost surely had arbalest , and judging from the Granadine painting , probably a lot of them.


So in these context, some of the roster changes it seem should be...

add.

Granadine Arablester: fairly standard arbalest unit.

Black guards: the Moroccan tradition often had slave guards, the sub saharen africans were often preferred, obviously there's some room for interpertation on how exactly they function, as the best reference came in later periods . ( Moulay Ismail's rule in the later 17th early 18th century) should just start by renaming the Sudanese gunners as black guard gunners.

Moroccan arquebusier : or maybe just a standard Muslim arquebusier , probably lower avalibiltiy than christian counterparts.

Move the Sudanese tribesman and Javlinman /nubian spearman to a Moorish / Fatimid unit, avalible VIA the caravans. (to suggest that they weren't trained units but rather slave units acquired from trades. relative low avalibility / replenish rate)

Consider removing:

Most of the Grandadine units, especially the lancers and mounted crossbows either remove the jinet unit for the standard one, and/or make it significantly better than the standard one. (personally I think they should have both, with the Granadine verision being the later more diciplined and well armoured version)

Bedouin infantry: doesn't make sense on so many level, espeically on the Moorish roster.



Faris : is just a generic term that both the Turks and Fatimids have a much more specific representation of, while there's little evidence that the Moors practiced anything like that.



Again, I suggested this before elsewhere, but a simple way of making the Islamic faction rosters as a whole much more interesting is simply using the caravan buildings to represent slave trade / common tribal mercenary units , which for different factions might mean different units., such as the Moors being Sub-Saharen African units , the Fatimid also includes some Turkish units, and the Turks maybe some stepp units etc) also, there were plenty of evidence that these factions had western knights fighing on their side when they end up holding land neighboring them, thus we should consider making at least some of the generic knights AOR units avalible to any faction that holds western lands

[GhostFace]

I have a question, figured this was the best place to ask it.
Does anybody know the role/status of black muslims in Moorish culture?
Were they considered as equals and were they educated?

[Gorrrrrn]

Bedouin infantry: doesn't make sense on so many level, espeically on the Moorish roster.

- agree

Move the Sudanese tribesman and Javlinman /nubian spearman to a Moorish / Fatimid unit, avalible VIA the caravans. (to suggest that they weren't trained units but rather slave units acquired from trades. relative low avalibility / replenish rate)

From what I've been reading - Nubian spearmen made up a part of the Fatimid infantry prior to the Ayyubid take over of Egypt (in part due to long-standing arrangement whereby 360 Nubian slaves were sent to Egypt every year for inclusion in the army.) Fatimids had no problem with using Christian infantry (they also used Armenian archers for example.) Only a few Nubian spearmen would have made it over to Morocco, and why would a Moroccan regime need them, when it had ample source of manpower from western africa Ghana, Mali and such areas. I suspect Sudanese infantry would be much the same. We can however change Sudanese to sudani, which (so I am told) means black and therefore can cover all sub-Saharan africans from both sides of the continent?

otherwise I might suggest we have two hidden_resource - alandalus and northafrica instead of an undifferentiated moors. to allow for differing rosters?

[RollingWave]

I have a question, figured this was the best place to ask it.
Does anybody know the role/status of black muslims in Moorish culture?
Were they considered as equals and were they educated?

It's hard to really generalize, but on a theortical level muslims weren't suppose to enslave other muslims. and if your slaves convert you were suppose to release them, so there's that. but Moorish area were pretty big on slavery during that period (though muslim slavery is a relatively looser term ) just like most other islamic areas. sub saharen africans were a major source of the slaves, but on the other hand some berber tribes also lived very close to them and had mixed marriages. they say that the Almoravid tribes were actually very negro like in features. so it's hard to really judge.

- agree

From what I've been reading - Nubian spearmen made up a part of the Fatimid infantry prior to the Ayyubid take over of Egypt (in part due to long-standing arrangement whereby 360 Nubian slaves were sent to Egypt every year for inclusion in the army.) Fatimids had no problem with using Christian infantry (they also used Armenian archers for example.) Only a few Nubian spearmen would have made it over to Morocco, and why would a Moroccan regime need them, when it had ample source of manpower from western africa Ghana, Mali and such areas. I suspect Sudanese infantry would be much the same. We can however change Sudanese to sudani, which (so I am told) means black and therefore can cover all sub-Saharan africans from both sides of the continent?

otherwise I might suggest we have two hidden_resource - alandalus and northafrica instead of an undifferentiated moors. to allow for differing rosters?

It would be great if you could incorperate that into your mod, on a general level even if the Nubians supplied the Fatimid with some men every year, it can't possibly be enough to form their primary infantry units, which is amusing the case now, where most games see both Moors and Fatimids run around with mostly Nubian spearmans during most of the game.

[Gorrrrrn]

well - we'll have to see - so many aspects of my Mod to work on and keep co-ordinated

suggest arab units in north africa be mercs and dates of availability roughly correspond to spread of bedouin tribes across the area.
nubian spears can be phased out at the same time (and be just a merc unit?) as the area became increasingly arabised.

views on camel warriors - spearmen in particular?
from what I've been reading it wasn't done often in combat - and when the Nubians tried it it failed dismally against arab forces.
Moorish armies used camels more for transporting people and goods, and dismounted to fight.

[RollingWave]

not like the camels are common now anyway . though yes that's what i've heard too, that camels were almost always transport use and mayyybe occasionally missile plateform. simply from a logical level camels are much taller than horses and a guy wielding a spear on top of it will have a super difficult time reaching anyone on the ground with it.

a adult dromedary (one hump camel ) is a wooping 7+ feet or so at it's peak of the hump where the rider typically seat, which is a wooping 2 feet taller than most arabian horse. it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the obvious problem this would present for a spearman on top of it.

[RollingWave]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yusuf_i...itary_exploits

The Sanhaja confederation, which consisted of a hierarchy of Lamtuna, Musaffa and Djudalla Berbers, represented the military's top brass. Amongst them were Andalusian Christians and heretic Africans, taking up duties as diwan al-gund, Yusuf's own personal bodyguard; including 2,000 black horsemen, whose tasks also included registering soldiers and making sure they were compensated financially. The occupying forces of the Almoravids were made up largely horsemen, totaling no less than 20,000. Into the major cities of al-Andalus, Seville (7,000), Granada (1,000), Cordoba (1,000), 5,000 bordering Castile and 4,000 in western Andalusia, succeeding waves of horsemen in conjunction with the garrisons that had been left there after the Battle of Sagrajas, made responding, for the Taifa emirs, difficult. Soldiers on foot used bows & arrows, sabres, pikes, javelins, each protected by a cuirass of Moroccan leather and iron piked shields. During the siege of the fort-town Aledo, in Murcia, captured by the Spaniard Garcia Giménez previously, Almoravid and Andalusian hosts are said to have used catapults, in addition to their customary drum beat.

[RollingWave]

One of the unit that repeatedly comeup in almost all relavant era for the Moors is the drummer on camels or horses (see the picture i posted in the previous few posts, it also have them ). which would probably the most realistic "camel" unit. and obviously a doable unit that basically works like the true cross units that can run around a bit. (though obviously it would take a pretty skilled modeller to do this) . having the effect of either inspiring allies or scarying foes.

[Gorrrrrn]

RW - do we have a model for drum players in M2TW / kingdoms anywhere?

important point about "spearmen" - many murabitim era infantry were "spearmen" but clearly equipped and used like european pikemen.
ie they adopted a defensive stance with grounded long pikes, protected by heavy shields.

be good if we could have african pikemen for "moors" faction.

[RollingWave]

I am making a mod (posted an early beta in the sub mod forum already) that address the moorish roster and hopefully spill over to other islamic roster eventually as well.

so far the roster I have is.

castle
Sanhaja warriors (elite spearmens using lamtuna model as base)
Al_Murabitun cav (elite desrt cav using the bedouin cav EDU as base)


barrack
mostly the same, though i added ghulam infantry at the very top, replaced nubian with desert spearmen (basically the old berber spearmen) and plan on removing arab infantry and heavy infantry, also will put in andalusian infantry and a pikeman unit in the next release

range
added a arbalest unit at the very top, made javelin unit much more common and useful, plan on removing heavy archer

stable
buffed granadine lancers and jinet considerablly (also adjusted price in accordance), some modle changes in the next release.

caravan : next release will replace tuareg with the camel archers


city: most of the granadine / andalusian series unit can be built in the cities as well, nerfed moorish axe and urban militia a bit but made them more acessable and/or cheaper, added halberd militia

[DeMolay]

That's a good news that you posted this mod , i will definetely try it , beause this faction is the most innacurate of all as it stands .

I have read this thread and just wanted to say something which i think is important to understand the Moors

There is quite a difference between the Almoravids and the Almohads in term of army composition and military tactics , and it's important to note that the game starts in 1100 , and the Almoravid dynasty is destroyed about 40 years later historically , so the in-game emphasis should be on the Almohads in my opinion.

The Almoravids were rough nomadic people of the desert , from the southern Marrocco region , they used mainly troops without much protections , very mobile troops suted for open fields , especially a lot of tribesmen footsoldiers armed with spears or a bow and black slaves or mercenaries they shipped from Ghana (that they conqueered ) , Senegal or Mauritania . They were expert at desert warfare and guerrilla and were reputed for their strong military ethos. Ethnically , the ruling Almoravids tribes were both black and white , most often mixed colour .

The Almohads had a different approach to war , before they conqueered El Andalus and eradicated the Almoravids , they had to unify the whole north African coast , from eastern Marroco to Lybia , , their armies were mainly composed of horsemen ( north Africa is region with many horses , especially in northern Algeria ) .The infantry they used was mostly made of inhabitants of the north african coast , but the armies of Ibn Tumart (founder of the Almohad dynasty ) were mainly on horse . Black slaves were seldom used under the Almohads before the conquest of El Andalus , whereas they were widely used by the Almoravids

After the conquest of El Andalus , they used native Andalucian in their armies as well as mercenaries from Europe and north African Berbers mainly . The reason for this is that the El Andalus cities levied their own armies , these cities were very rich and among the most populated in Europe , leading meditarrenean trade with the Byzantines , their troops had a very fine equipment produced locally or brought from the Middle-east (later on the first siege cannons for instance were used by the Moors in Europe )

In military term, that means Almohads armies were quite different from the Almoravids typical desert-type armies of the early 11th century , Almohads relied on a more powerful cavalry in greater numbers than the Almoravids who mostly used light/medium cavalry , had a heavier infantry (in fact city militias well equipped and trained ) , professional archers and heavy spearmen (also trained mostly in cities )


One important thing to note as well , is that Berbers is not one people . It is many different people . There are Berbers exclsively Black or mixed Black , like the Tuaregs , there are Berbers exclusively with white skin like the Schleuh of Marroco or Kabyle from Algeria . Berbers is just the generic term for the indigneous people of north Africa before the Arab conquest . so in game terms that means that Berber doesn't necessarily means Desert soldiers , but could also be applied to some medium cavalry units of north african coast or the various infantry they had (which used swords , axes or spears , not only spears )


Now back to the game , in term of roster , i'm pretty satisfied with the list of RollingWave , i think it is a very good improvement , however , i think that it is important to represent the North Africans Berbers or Arabo-Berbers ( for the majority of them ) more in the roster .

For the moment , there are the Moorish axemen and that's it ... Whereas in real life , the Almohad dynasty was a Berber North African dynasty , some Arabs held important offices and position , but the overwhelming majority of soldiers and generals under the Almohad rule were from Marroco essentially , Algeria and of course from Spain (Andalucia )

Also in my opinion , the exotic units like Berber camels or Camel gunners should be replaced by historically accurate units ( as it has been already rightfully pointed , desert tribesmen fought on foot , camels were just for transport over long distances ) , the Moors had a variety of medium cavalry and light/medium infantry units which would complement their roster well


I think overall , the player should feel a difference between :

- the native north African units (mainly medium and light cavalry , light and medium infantry ) made of tribesmen with strong morale from Marroco and Algeria as well as Black soldiers (mercenaries or slaves , so possible to be hired or trained in a castle ) from Ghana/Senegal ( and not Sudan or Nubia which is thousands of kilometers away ) , units more suited to conquest and rough terrain

- the units of El Andalus , units with lower morale (city/urban units ) but much better equipment (heavy infantry , heavy spearmen ) , units better suited to defence of individual cities

-Mercenaries units from Europe , Ghana/Senegal/Mauritania , even Slavs fought for the Moors , troops with better morale than city units and good equipment that complement Urban troops well ( Christian knights ), but more expensive in upkeep , oops long post sry