The Great Conflicts main discussion thread. Please post here!

[Stath's]

All i 've seen here lately are fantastic!!!

[Majkl]

Well, if you guys are going to make some "asiatic" faces, do it, just please make them look like humans, cuz the ones CA made in original game were horrible! I could not play hungarians because their units look really bad.

[Wareg]

Many Hungarians also have last names of Pechneg origin correct? I have heard this before

I'm not sure about Pechengs but with no doubt after Mongol invasion in 1237-38 large number of Cumans fled to Hungary, led by Koten. They renew steppe influences in europanized Hungary. They had forgotten Magyar weapons - composte bows, curved swrods. Cuman horse archers were significant part of Hungarian army, their skills were very important during battle of Marchefeld in 1278.

I believe there is a big chance that a regional sub-mod about Caucascus sooner or later will be created.

Great idea, but It's quite strange that whole Armenian roster will consists only of 2 units...

Well, if you guys are going to make some "asiatic" faces, do it, just please make them look like humans, cuz the ones CA made in original game were horrible! I could not play hungarians because their units look really bad.

Asiatic faces which I've seen in Turkoman screenshots look well.

[phoenix[illusion]]

567+125 years = 692. 8th century is 701-800, 750 is in the mid.

i actually started counting from establishing of kaghanate, which was in late 6th century, so i took date around 575-600, let's say 585 and +125=710, enough for 8th century, although i lack few years since mid is counting but it's easier for comparison for next +125

But If we take 25% as accurate for 8th century you are right, with such tendention in late 9th century only 10-15% of Avars had Asiatic features (mongoloid/mixed).

even less, if 1/5 (20%) is right. in ages of tgc, somebody would say every tenth had mongol feature (10%), but it's actually every tenth of avar, not counting pannonian slavs.

What's more, rest Europoean-look like "Avars" had Avar graves, probably most of them indentify themselves to Avars and their culture, had Avar weaponary and armours and used Avar tactic.

If I don't convince you , It doesn't metter. With no doubt TGC will be very interesting mod with a lot of detailed units and lack of one unit (even such impressive as Avar nobles ) will change nothing.

avar influenced slavs in some ways, but it was avars who took slavic culture by end of khaganate. afrer defeat by franks and croats and fall of khaganate, avars and their culture totally disappeared just few decades after their khaganate, it's more likely that slav culture was stronger and more influential.

200 000 is estamination before magyar conquest. Don't forget that Panonian basin was steppic, and all steppes had quite small population. It was also quite dangerous for farmers to settle in such region - new waves of nomads was only matter of time. This is why population from southern Rus states come north, to more safe regions.

200000 is too much for asiatic horde. here's one table of estimation of population
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/pop-in-eur.asp
if we only count that it was skythians, huns, bulgars before and pechenegs and magyars after, and that they had such large numbers, there will definitely be more asiatic looks, instead europeid looks prevail even in middle ages.

[NikeBG]

According to one source 1/3 in 8th century, and according to another 1/5 of people from Avar graves had Mongol or mixed features. Here some reconstructions:
http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/36658-Facial-reconstruction-of-Avars-and-Magyars

The thing is that the mixed (Europeid with Mongoloid admixtures) are the majority of the ones with Mongoloid features, i.e. the "pure" Mongoloids are a small minority even in their own group. And if we compare them to the whole population (the biggest part of which is "pure" Europeid), then they're absolutely insignificant. At most, we should eventually have a few Europeid faces with some Mongoloid "spicing", like that Magyar guy.
As I said - it's a very popular and persistent myth that the European nomads looked Mongoloid - while there were some "purely" Mongoloid people among them, even when they were most numerous, they were still much, much fewer than the local Sarmatian/Slavic Europeid population, and while they eventually did spice that Europeid population with some Mongoloid features, they (the "pure" Mongoloids) relatively quickly became assimilated into the local Europeid genetic pool (and even today, after centuries of incoming waves of populations from Middle Asia, the people of Eastern Europe are still quite Europeid, so you can guess how "common" Mongoloid people would've been even earlier - basically, just a (part of the) ruling elite, and mostly so in the beginning, soon after their arrival).

200 000 is estamination before magyar conquest. Don't forget that Panonian basin was steppic, and all steppes had quite small population.

Hmm, true.

Regarding Avars - simillar situation was in case of Liao, after Jin conquest they fled far to West to found Kara khitan Khanate. They must be numerous to defeat Seljuks and occupy new lands. Same Avars. 20 000 isn't large number If you take consideration high degree of mobilization in steppic armies. It seems also much more reliable than some other sources claimng about 100 000 Avar warriors in one campaign.

If it was only 20 000 soldiers, with no women, children, elders, cattles etc - then yes, a 20 000 army of fleeing nomad-soldiers could traverse that distance. But then they would become (genetically) assimilated much, much, much faster.
However, I specifically mentioned before that the Huns, Bulgars etc (European nomads, including even the Goths, btw) were generally not an ethnos, but a polyethnos - i.e. while they may have carried the name of the core-tribe, they actually consisted of a number of varied other subjugated/allied tribes. F.e. the Huns included not only the "proper Huns" and Germanics (Goths, Gepids etc), but also other Scythian tribes, as well as Slavic tribes, which were all called "Huns" at the time, because they were part of the Hunnic "state". Similarly for the Bulgars - they included not only "proper Bulgars" and Huno-Bulgars/Kutrigurs, but also other tribes (other Iranics, Turkic (or Huno-Turkic, like the Sabirs), Slavs etc). Similar also for the Magyars (we even know the names of the tribes there) and similar also for the Avars (which included a large Slavic mass and a smaller Bulgar/Kutrigur mass, plus some Germanic and Roman remnants). So when we say Hun or Bulgar or Avar, we have to keep in mind that a big part of those people, by the time they had established themselves in Europe, were of local descent, while the part that came from distant Asia (if there was such a part in the first place) would've been a minority forming (part of) the ruling elite.

I don't think they dissapeared during 70 years, If they kept their traditions and partly also features during 250 years. They haven't got their own state but remains still exist, and were finally asimilated after Magyar conqest.

Traditions are a very different thing from genetics. F.e. the Pechenegs in Maglen/Moglena (in the area of Thessaloniki) survived as a distinct group well into the 14th (or was it 15th? - not 100% sure) century. But they did so not through genetics, but through preserving their culture and lifestyle. And those things are not tied to genetics at all - just like f.e. the Slavs etc. could eventually adopt the culture of their foreign neighbours or overlords, without changing physically, the same way the smaller, but "elite" populations could change physically (due to mixing with the larger population), but preserve their culture for a longer period of time (although, as I said, I think the Frankish Avars had converted to Christianity somewhere around Charlemagne's time, IIRC, so even culturally they were no longer the same).
Now, in 811 we indeed have a mention of Krum the Terrible (the Bulgarian ruler who finally destroyed the Avars around 805) hiring Avar mercenaries for his campaign against Nikephoros Genikos (although, considering the short time Krum had between Nike sacking his capital and then Krum sacking Nike's head, it's possible that those Avars weren't from their old lands, but might have lived or been resettled somewhere closer to the Bulgarian capital; though that's not so important), but that is only a few years after the destruction of their state, so those Avar warriors and nobles, who had actually been part of the Avar Khaganate in its last days, would've still been alive (or at least part of them) and subjected to the Bulgars. It's quite possible that the reorganization after the conquest might have not even been finished yet, which could further explain their mercenary status (and even give the possibility of them being noble cataphracts, though I personally doubt that). But, as I said, that's in 811, so these could be among the last remnants of the Avar troops. While 872 is over half a century later - their state has been gone for over two generations now and whatever remnants would still remain, I don't see how they could form a significant enough force to warrant a unit, which would even be usable for only a few decades (I'm not saying I'm totally against it - I just don't see a reason for it).
But even if we assume (and that's a very big IF) that there were still some remaining Avars by 872, with Asiatic face features and their old traditions and lifestyle, and if they were to be cataphracts, then that would suggest they're rich and noble enough to afford it. So the question would then be - whose nobility would they be? Did the Moravians have an Avar nobility at that time? I personally doubt that.

in the post you posted are reconstructions of asiatic look avar, but as it says, by 8th century, 80% of avars were europeid character.

Aye, 80% being Europeid, while the other 20% being "pure" Mongoloid (purely theoretically) and Europeid-Mongoloid (i.e. mostly Europeid with some Mongoloid spicing; which would be the greatest part of those 20%).

Many Pechenegs found shelter within Kingdom of Hungary, especially after Pecheneg Khanate was destroyed in late XIc.

Funnily, somewhat similar to the Cumans - both groups found "shelter" mainly in the lands of Hungary and the Balkans. F.e. the people of my region, the Shopluk, are said to have our regional name from the Pecheneg Tzopon tribe (though, funnily enough, we have no "Asiatic features" - on the contrary, we're the blondest region in the country).

I'm not sure about Pechengs but with no doubt after Mongol invasion in 1237-38 large number of Cumans fled to Hungary, led by Koten.

Didn't Kotyan's Cumans flee south to Bulgaria (and even further south to Byzantium) after his murder? It's even believed that the Terter dynasty of Bulgaria would've been descendants of Kotyan's Terteroba dynasty.

avar influenced slavs in some ways, but it was avars who took slavic culture by end of khaganate. afrer defeat by franks and croats and fall of khaganate, avars and their culture totally disappeared just few decades after their khaganate, it's more likely that slav culture was stronger and more influential.

Aye, let's not forget that the assimilation of the Avars to the local population would've begun soon after their establishment in Europe, not after the destruction of their state. Similarly, some people here wonder how come the Bulgars seem to have become Slavicized so quickly in Boris' time (i.e. TGC's beginning), because they forget their Slavicization would've began centuries earlier, quite possibly even before the creation of the Danubian state itself, and the "sudden Slavicization" is simply the officialization of the final success of that process.

[AnthoniusII]

We must not forget that TGC Magyars will have three kind of phaces.
European, Mongoloied and combination of both...
Koultouras made a very good work on that.



That was desided to show the race mix through time of co-exist with other races..I believe same happened to Avars and every human race today.
No Greek or Bulgarian or English or...has 100% of the original race characteristics today...

[NikeBG]

That was desided to show the race mix through time of co-exist with other races..I believe same happened to Avars and every human race today.

There was a race mix, yes, but as I said before in the dev forum, we should also try to keep a relatively realistic ratio of it - i.e. the Mongoloid faces among the Magyars should be very few, the mixed ones should be few as well, but quite more than the Mongoloid ones and the majority should be Europeid (say 5%/20%/75% f.e.). Somewhat similar with the Bulgarians - extremely few Mongoloid, few mixed and mostly Europeid (say 2%/18%/80% f.e.). Otherwise, if we make them 33%/33%/34% (i.e. equal), it would be plain wrong.
The Turkomans, of course, are another matter.

[koultouras]

There was a race mix, yes, but as I said before in the dev forum, we should also try to keep a relatively realistic ratio of it - i.e. the Mongoloid faces among the Magyars should be very few, the mixed ones should be few as well, but quite more than the Mongoloid ones and the majority should be Europeid (say 5%/20%/75% f.e.). Somewhat similar with the Bulgarians - extremely few Mongoloid, few mixed and mostly Europeid (say 2%/18%/80% f.e.). Otherwise, if we make them 33%/33%/34% (i.e. equal), it would be plain wrong.
The Turkomans, of course, are another matter.

we can not determine how the heads and mostly how the heads combo will load up in battle.
I can respect accurracy but i need to bow to mechanics too.

The ratio in magyars head appearance is 4/7 europeid, 2/7 mongoloid and 1/7 mixed characteristics from both
I can not though guarantee which set will be shown everytime.
Here is where accuracy bows to mechanics

and ofc this is not standing for any unit of Kabar origin.

[demagogos nicator]

We must not forget that TGC Magyars will have three kind of phaces.
European, Mongoloied and combination of both...
Koultouras made a very good work on that.
That was desided to show the race mix through time of co-exist with other races..I believe same happened to Avars and every human race today.
No Greek or Bulgarian or English or...has 100% of the original race characteristics today...

[Mr Kriegtooth]

So hows the modding going? Any news?

[AnthoniusII]

So hows the modding going? Any news?

We will give our funs a small present this weekend.

[Dr. Jones]

We will give our funs a small present this weekend.

Great news

[Wareg]

200000 is too much for asiatic horde. here's one table of estimation of population
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/pop-in-eur.asp
if we only count that it was skythians, huns, bulgars before and pechenegs and magyars after, and that they had such large numbers, there will definitely be more asiatic looks, instead europeid looks prevail even in middle ages.

I mean that there were 200 000 people in Panonia Basin before Magyar conquest. Whole population, not only Avars. On the oder hand Magyar population at time of conquest is estaminated of about 400 000 (150 - 600 thousands accrording to source). It's seems high number but not impossiblle.

NikeBG, quite high proportion of Mongoloid/mixed faces amongst Avars (20-30%) in 8th century, If we take into account fact that Avars took local women quite frequently, provides that probably most of Avars at time of conquest were mongoloid/mixed. In contrast, most of Magyars (80%) at time of conquest were europeid. Maybe It was due to quicker trip of Avars, and influences of europeid steppe people was weaker. Maybe due to influences of europeid Siberia people, living near Magyars in their homeland, even before Magyar moved west.
I agree that Avars were minority, even in poorly populated Panonian Basin (minority, but not vast, according to data).
Why do you think that Avars couldn't travers such distance with women and children? Nomads were nomads, they were traveling frequently, It was nothing exceptional for them. According to Rouran theory Avars need 7 years to cover a distance to Panonian Basin. Khitans travel to Fergana also took 7 years, and note fact that they were sinicised and generally abandoned nomad way of life. They were traveling with women and children.

whose nobility would they be?

Pricipality of Lower Panonia. 4 regions south to Great Moravia and North to Croatia. In 9th cenury there still was Avar population (but not as numerous as Slavic). There were strong oriental culture influences - Avaric and Byzantine, although Carolingian influences increased through century.
Most of army of Prinipality of Lower Panonia may be Slavic infantry, identical to that from Moravian roster. But there may be also oriental elite unit. Not pure Avars, as I suggested initially, but rather mixed, with mostly europeid faces with small asiatic adddition. With mixed weaponary - Slavic, German, Byzantine and Avar influenced. It can be AoR unit, and If you play as Great Moravia and quicly conquere Pric. of LP you will get strong and impreesive unit. If not, they will be strong and impressive opponent unit.
Why Avars? Cause of their contribution to European warfare and oriental look (even If less oriental features). If I have some free time I will draw and upload my conception of such unit. If you use It, fine, If not- I will not feel offended

Didn't Kotyan's Cumans flee south to Bulgaria (and even further south to Byzantium) after his murder? It's even believed that the Terter dynasty of Bulgaria would've been descendants of Kotyan's Terteroba dynasty.

Yes, but many returned after Mongol invasion, to settle in depopulated regions of Hungary.

The ratio in magyars head appearance is 4/7 europeid, 2/7 mongoloid and 1/7 mixed characteristics from both

Nice proportion

We will give our funs a small present this weekend.

I hear something... Patter of thousand of horse hooves. Oh, my God, are they Magyars?

[torzsoktamas]

I have two questions:

1. Will the turkoman league be a playable faction?Would be really cool.
2.What will be the difference between the magyars,turkomans and pechenegs concerning their military?In what will their strategies,units,tactics differ?

[AnthoniusII]

I have two questions:

1. Will the turkoman league be a playable faction?Would be really cool.
2.What will be the difference between the magyars,turkomans and pechenegs concerning their military?In what will their strategies,units,tactics differ?

1: No in the 1st release because they will apear to late for that.
There are some future plans though with consentrated (focused) campaigns that will start even later than 872. In one of them "Strugle for Anatolia" Turcomanic leaque will be fully playble .
2: The three steppe "horde" kind factions have simularities and defferences mainly for game play reasons.

Simularities:
They have to many horsemen but limited infantry.
They have to many archers
They have NO "artilery" units to asault cities exept rams, ladders and siege towers.
They have the best and most powerfull archers (only one exeption will brake that rule plus crossbows that will be equaly stronger).
They have to many unarmored or lightly armored units.
Differences:
Magyars have no javelinmen.
Pechenegs are -in average-more heavily armored.
Pechenegs and Turcomans have more "lance" horsemen than Magyars.
Magyars will have access to units that will benefit the new warfare tactics (Knights).
Turcomans have a larger variety of infantry units thanks to the areas that they are suposed that crossed before come into TGC map (Daylami units).

[b257]

I have a question, it may have already been asked so bear with me, its in regards to music, are you guys gonna use some of the vanilla soundtrack with new music added or a new soundtrack entirely. I'm asking because there has never been a moment in campaign where a battle is not going in my favor and War of Kings starts playing and my blood starts boiling and I use that motivation to snatch victory from the Jaws of defeat.

[AnthoniusII]

Quiz:
In wich faction this "bizzare" guy belongs to?

[eddy]

Nice!
maybe from Great Moravia ?

[dracorax]

Kievan vikings.
Because it's mid to heavy infantry who use an axe plus the pagan symbol of the shield.

[AnthoniusII]

No Great Moravia or Kievan Viking...