The Great Conflicts main discussion thread. Please post here!

[AnthoniusII]

Thanks but you need to re put the images of the shields.
Spoiler does not open.
Any way....
Here is Turcomanic federation unit roster in full extend.

[Wareg]

Avars...Maybe the Merc AOR unit roster is not finilised yet.
But i do remember that Socal's 1st attempt was for Alans.

Three arguments in favor of Avars:
-they will be great addition to Moravian roster. Magyars, Pechengs and Rus can use Khazar cavalry, they don't need additional Alan unit.
-they will be more exotic unit than Alans (Chinese influences)
-land of Avars are contained within TGC map, while Alans not.

Hence my question - if Caucasus isn't included in TGC map, how will you make AoR unit from Armenia?

You may also add another unique unit - Georgian infantry. They took part in battle of Abydos (989), probably as bodyguard of Bardas Fokas. Here http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showth...medieval-units is info that Khevsur warriors "being free and indepedent from the feudal lords, were often called in bodyguard of the Georgian kings". So maybe such unit was Bardas Fokas's Bodyguard...

As we mentioned many times before Romans copied the Khazar and Armenian cataphract consepts and impoved them via better equipment

Avar catphracts influences were also strong. Thanks to them Romans adopted stirrups, higher saddles and stronger bows.

Remember that I.Tzimeskes (an Armenian) recruited more cataphracts by "copying"Armenian ones and created the last and newst Tagma ton Athanaton

So will Armenian cataphracts look identically to Tagma ton Athanation?

[Cvetko]

Thanks but you need to re put the images of the shields.
Spoiler does not open.
Any way....
Here is Turcomanic federation unit roster in full extend.

Wow!

Sorry, I fixed it now

[dracorax]

So many horse archers. Will need good amounts of light cavalry to get rid of them.

Or just use the anti-mongol playing style.

Don't fight on open grounds and force them to assault your city.

[koultouras]

So many horse archers. Will need good amounts of light cavalry to get rid of them.

Or just use the anti-mongol playing style.

Don't fight on open grounds and force them to assault your city.

just wait to see magyars too...

[NikeBG]

Three arguments in favor of Avars:
-they will be great addition to Moravian roster. Magyars, Pechengs and Rus can use Khazar cavalry, they don't need additional Alan unit.
-they will be more exotic unit than Alans (Chinese influences)
-land of Avars are contained within TGC map, while Alans not.

Even if we accept the Zhouzhan/Rouran theory for the origin of the Avars, don't forget that they were a quite small minority within their own state (which is logical). And especially after the fall of their state to the attacks of Charlemagne and Krum the Terrible, with nothing to keep them in power, they would've quickly assimilated and disappeared within the local Slavs with next to no trace. Which is pretty much what happened.
And Asiatic faces for the Moravians is a definite no-go - even if we assume the Avars were highly Mongoloid by the time of their arrival (mid-6th c.) in Europe, don't forget that they had been in these lands for several centuries now, taking Slavic wives/concubines, and would thus be quite assimilated already by TGC's starting date (not to mention TGC's ending date).

[AnthoniusII]

So many horse archers. Will need good amounts of light cavalry to get rid of them.

Or just use the anti-mongol playing style.

Don't fight on open grounds and force them to assault your city.

just wait to see magyars too...

Yes against Magyars, Pechenegs and Turcomans a rather defencive strategy is the best sugestion.
Infantry has almost noo chance of survival in open plains against them unless the players will created somekind of trap or force those guys to fight on mountains.
Their weak/medium infantry means that they have limited chances of a succefull direct assault against highly guarded and fortifited cities.
But...the players must maintain a rapid (cavalry) task force in strategy points in equal distances of several cities to brake sieges with the help of the city guarding forces.

Even if we accept the Zhouzhan/Rouran theory for the origin of the Avars, don't forget that they were a quite small minority within their own state (which is logical). And especially after the fall of their state to the attacks of Charlemagne and Krum the Terrible, with nothing to keep them in power, they would've quickly assimilated and disappeared within the local Slavs with next to no trace. Which is pretty much what happened.
And Asiatic faces for the Moravians is a definite no-go - even if we assume the Avars were highly Mongoloid by the time of their arrival (mid-6th c.) in Europe, don't forget that they had been in these lands for several centuries now, taking Slavic wives/concubines, and would thus be quite assimilated already by TGC's starting date (not to mention TGC's ending date).

True...Hungarians are also the best example..
Modern hungarians do not remind any of their "steppe" origins but they look quite "european".
Modern Turks and many other nations follow the same example.

Don't forget Russ...that look more slavic than Viking in most of the cases.

[Silesian_Noble]

Modern hungarians do not remind any of their "steppe" origins but they look quite "european".

It isn't strange at all if you take into consideration that they were Finno-Ugric people from Uralic region which only absorbed some Steppic fellows while their migration path to the modern Hungary.

[Cvetko]

Please not, that they are originaly intended for 6./7. century era, but feel free to use them if you want

Attaleia



Symprothevusa



Konstantinopolis


Karia



Ahaia



Thrakia



Armenia



Suria

[Majkl]

Are you going to disable high level cities for Great Moravia?

[AnthoniusII]

Are you going to disable high level cities for Great Moravia?

Central and north east europe factions wont have HUGE cities exept of a case of a reworked settlement for historical matters.
Huge urban centers (actually cities with poppulation of 100000 inhabidands and more) existed in the east and arround mediteranean (Italy, Balkans and Islamic world).
Even such there will be only a handfull huge cities preplaced as such for historical issues.

[Wareg]

don't forget that they were a quite small minority within their own state

Population of Panonian Basin before Magyar settlement is estaminated of about 200 000. If we trust to source which mentioned 20 000 Avar horsemen (adult men?) + even more women and children (possibly), It will be quite high percent of population.

And Asiatic faces for the Moravians is a definite no-go - even if we assume the Avars were highly Mongoloid by the time of their arrival (mid-6th c.) in Europe, don't forget that they had been in these lands for several centuries now, taking Slavic wives/concubines, and would thus be quite assimilated already by TGC's starting date (not to mention TGC's ending date).

If you look at XIX or even XX-century photos of Polish of Tatar origin some features are still Asiatic. Most intensive settlement of Tatars in Lithuania was in XV cenury, less in XVI century Lithuania/Commonwealt. Note that they were proportionaly much less numerous than Avars in Panonia. Like drops in the sea.
My conception was only few (for ex 4-5) more Asiatic faces and equipment amongst 40 cavalrymen in unit. You are probably right that It may be less accurate for later period (X-XI cenury), Avars were also less numerous in Great Moravia homelands than in Panonia.
But you may make them as AoR unit in Panonia Basin, available only in early TGC timeframe (if It is possible to limit It in such way) or as unit possible to recruit once during game (as one of cataphract Byzantine unit, I don't remember It's name).

Don't forget Russ...that look more slavic than Viking in most of the cases.

Do you mean modern Russians or faces of TGC Rus models?

It isn't strange at all if you take into consideration that they were Finno-Ugric people from Uralic region which only absorbed some Steppic fellows while their migration path to the modern Hungary.

Native people from Siberia seems to look much more Asiatic than many of steppic people - I'm not sure but Indoeuropean features amongst IX, X and XI-century steppe people were more frequent than now (but not as widespread as in Antiquity).

So what about Armenia and Alania AoR units - those regions are out of TGC map...

[phoenix[illusion]]

Even if we accept the Zhouzhan/Rouran theory for the origin of the Avars, don't forget that they were a quite small minority within their own state (which is logical). And especially after the fall of their state to the attacks of Charlemagne and Krum the Terrible, with nothing to keep them in power, they would've quickly assimilated and disappeared within the local Slavs with next to no trace. Which is pretty much what happened.
And Asiatic faces for the Moravians is a definite no-go - even if we assume the Avars were highly Mongoloid by the time of their arrival (mid-6th c.) in Europe, don't forget that they had been in these lands for several centuries now, taking Slavic wives/concubines, and would thus be quite assimilated already by TGC's starting date (not to mention TGC's ending date).

i do agree, best example is after death of samo's empire, most of slavs got under rule of avars.
even in times of their arrival, i assume that they were no mongoloid as mongols, but more of a slightly turcic mongoloid (mixture). in times of this mod we can speak of avars as other europeans.
f.e. magyars on their earliest manuscripts/frescoes are totally european, even if they came relatively late

[NikeBG]

Population of Panonian Basin before Magyar settlement is estaminated of about 200 000. If we trust to source which mentioned 20 000 Avar horsemen (adult men?) + even more women and children (possibly), It will be quite high percent of population.

200 000 is a very small number, while 20 000 for the Avars is quite high (particularly if we presume they're actually Rourans, fleeing from the Turks all the way from the area of Mongolia to Europe - just think how 20 000 Avars, and especially if we presume those are only weapon-carrying men, not counting their families, would traverse such a long distance for such a short time while being persecuted so viciously by the Gokturks). So I very, very much doubt that ratio to have any semblance of accuracy.
A similar case can be said to be the Hunnic example - not only that they're archaeologically almost invisible (the only certain Hunnic trace is their specific type of cauldrons, AFAIK), but it's well-known that in Europe they were a polyethnos and a minute ruling minority within their tribal alliance (same as the Avars, Bulgars etc), which eventually got assimilated into its neighbouring/subjected tribes (again - same as the Avars, Bulgars etc).

Native people from Siberia seems to look much more Asiatic than many of steppic people - I'm not sure but Indoeuropean features amongst IX, X and XI-century steppe people were more frequent than now (but not as widespread as in Antiquity).

Modern hungarians do not remind any of their "steppe" origins but they look quite "european".

even in times of their arrival, i assume that they were no mongoloid as mongols, but more of a slightly turcic mongoloid (mixture). in times of this mod we can speak of avars as other europeans.
f.e. magyars on their earliest manuscripts/frescoes are totally european, even if they came relatively late

That's probably because the Pontic steppe people have an amazingly popular and very incorrect mythical image of Mongol-looking people. Which is obviously very untrue. Here's f.e. a reconstruction of an ancient Pontic Scythian. And while, as Wareg hinted, in later time the Mongoloid admixture increased, it was still mostly an admixture, rather comparable to the modern looks of the Ukrainians and Europeans in general. Here's f.e. a Cuman chieftain - as you can see, he's slightly more Mongoloid, but only slightly - his "base" is obviously still Europeid with only Mongoloid admixtures. The same case is also f.e. with the Bulgar skulls - most of them are Europeid, some of them have minor Mongoloid admixtures and there are only a few Mongoloid skulls with Europeid admixtures (which, IIRC, were only slightly more in number than the two odd Negroid skulls, which were also found in the Bulgar necropoli).
So, basically, the Pontic nomads seem to have been almost entirely Europeid with the occasional, depending on time period, minor, increasing with time Mongoloid admixture. So if you look at the faces of modern Ukrainians, you can be pretty much sure that the medieval people of that region looked even less Mongoloid. Same goes also for the Hungarians etc.

In other words - the Avars were an absolute relic by 872 (from Wareg's own list, they have only one occasion of being mentioned shortly after the starting date and even then it's not sure what kind of "Avars" they would've been by then (the Frankish Avars had already converted to Christianity f.e., thus they could've already been culturally or even "racially" different)) and thus I find them (personally) to be far too out-of-date for an inclusion in TGC.

[Wareg]

i do agree, best example is after death of samo's empire, most of slavs got under rule of avars.
even in times of their arrival, i assume that they were no mongoloid as mongols, but more of a slightly turcic mongoloid (mixture). in times of this mod we can speak of avars as other europeans.
f.e. magyars on their earliest manuscripts/frescoes are totally european, even if they came relatively late

I agree that in times before settlement in Panonia Basin some Avars have mongol features, but some mixed (even if we accept Rouran theory Avars definitely weren't one nation but heterogenous group).
According to one source 1/3 in 8th century, and according to another 1/5 of people from Avar graves had Mongol or mixed features. Here some reconstructions:
http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/36658-Facial-reconstruction-of-Avars-and-Magyars
It is time 150-200 years after settlement in Panonian basin. I have no doubt that at time when TGC start (872) there were still quite numerous people with Asiatic features in this region.

f.e. magyars on their earliest manuscripts/frescoes are totally european, even if they came relatively late

According to facial reconstructions at time of arrive some Magyars have still Mongolic features, but probably they were in minority. Not due to Finno-Urgric origin, as Silesian Noble claim, but rather just steppe influences. As NikeBG've written, Scythians had mostly European features, same Tocharians. Cumans had fair hair, Temujin probably red.

200 000 is a very small number, while 20 000 for the Avars is quite high

200 000 is estamination before magyar conquest. Don't forget that Panonian basin was steppic, and all steppes had quite small population. It was also quite dangerous for farmers to settle in such region - new waves of nomads was only matter of time. This is why population from southern Rus states come north, to more safe regions.
Regarding Avars - simillar situation was in case of Liao, after Jin conquest they fled far to West to found Kara khitan Khanate. They must be numerous to defeat Seljuks and occupy new lands. Same Avars. 20 000 isn't large number If you take consideration high degree of mobilization in steppic armies. It seems also much more reliable than some other sources claimng about 100 000 Avar warriors in one campaign.

In other words - the Avars were an absolute relic by 872

I don't think they dissapeared during 70 years, If they kept their traditions and partly also features during 250 years. They haven't got their own state but remains still exist, and were finally asimilated after Magyar conqest. If you plan to create Byzantine unit able to recruit once, why not Avars? You will do as you think, but unit of Avar noble cataphracts, with their exotic appearance, amongst more familiar masses of Slavic warriors, is something which stimulate my imagination. Even if such unit will be extremaly rare and exist only 20 or 30 years...

[phoenix[illusion]]

I agree that in times before settlement in Panonia Basin some Avars have mongol features, but some mixed (even if we accept Rouran theory Avars definitely weren't one nation but heterogenous group).
According to one source 1/3 in 8th century, and according to another 1/5 of people from Avar graves had Mongol or mixed features. Here some reconstructions:
http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/36658-Facial-reconstruction-of-Avars-and-Magyars
It is time 150-200 years after settlement in Panonian basin. I have no doubt that at time when TGC start (872) there were still quite numerous people with Asiatic features in this region.

in the post you posted are reconstructions of asiatic look avar, but as it says, by 8th century, 80% of avars were europeid character. anyways, let's ignore that fact, and take the hardest case, 1/3 of avars as mongoloid/mixed. it's a large number of europeid avars, considering that it was a century and a quarter since arrival of avars. considering that those were graves of avars, we can assume that not much of them were originally slavs (yeah, probably there was some of original slavic elite, but most of elite was from mongoloid avar ancestor), cause many of the slavs remained their funeral ceremonies (cremating), while does bodies were found in avar manner (avar ancestor). so, it passed ~7 geneartions from original mongoloid to 1/3 of them as mongoloid/mixed, and other 2/3 as europeid. considering that from 100% took more than 125 years to get to 33.33% mongoloids, that means adding +125 years (tgc start date) there will be 11.11%

According to facial reconstructions at time of arrive some Magyars have still Mongolic features, but probably they were in minority. Not due to Finno-Urgric origin, as Silesian Noble claim, but rather just steppe influences. As NikeBG've written, Scythians had mostly European features, same Tocharians. Cumans had fair hair, Temujin probably red.

there is no doubt about it, but as for link you send me, they look europeid with one or two slightly mongoloid influence (they are on eyes and jaws).
hungarians can be traced by names, cosnidering that one of the most of the hungarian surname are horvát (croat) and tóth (slovakian). not to mention lengyel (polish) and rácz (serb) which only indicates how many were of local people, and how many were "from the steppes" (yes many of the nations latter came, but there are many other hungarian surnames that are pure slavic. i live in town with hungarians, most of them carry slavic origin surnames in hungarian version, and in hungary most common are slavic - kovács (read as kovach) as one of the most common amoung slovenians, so as serbs and croats in other variants, slavic origin)

[Roboute Guilliman]

I love the tribal look of the turks, great work!

[Darios]

Many Hungarians also have last names of Pechneg origin correct? I have heard this before.

[Wareg]

567+125 years = 692. 8th century is 701-800, 750 is in the mid.
But If we take 25% as accurate for 8th century you are right, with such tendention in late 9th century only 10-15% of Avars had Asiatic features (mongoloid/mixed). But It is still considerable force. Compare It with Norman roster - Guiscard had few thousands of knights but there is 6 knight units (of course I like It, more detailed units = more interesting game).
What's more, rest Europoean-look like "Avars" had Avar graves, probably most of them indentify themselves to Avars and their culture, had Avar weaponary and armours and used Avar tactic.

If I don't convince you , It doesn't metter. With no doubt TGC will be very interesting mod with a lot of detailed units and lack of one unit (even such impressive as Avar nobles ) will change nothing.

But can anybody tell me If you are planning to extend TGC map to Caucasus? (Armenian and Alan AoR).

And one another idea for unit (I know, more units = more work and later TGC premiere but also more joy for player) - Georgian infantry.

[Silesian_Noble]

Many Hungarians also have last names of Pechneg origin correct? I have heard this before.

Many Pechenegs found shelter within Kingdom of Hungary, especially after Pecheneg Khanate was destroyed in late XIc.

But can anybody tell me If you are planning to extend TGC map to Caucasus? (Armenian and Alan AoR).

I believe there is a big chance that a regional sub-mod about Caucascus sooner or later will be created.