Thread: The Great Conflicts main discussion thread. Please post here!

  1. #4421
    Lü Bu's Avatar "Mightyest Man Alive"
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    Default Re: The Great Conflicts main discussion thread. Please post here!

    it will fit perfectly i hope this will be next unit!just delete beard as separate object... i can help you also if you need chinese/korean/japanese heads and textures
    Last edited by Lü Bu; March 30, 2012 at 04:15 AM.
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  2. #4422

    Default Re: The Great Conflicts main discussion thread. Please post here!

    I've found article about Arabian archery:
    http://www.hungarianarchery.com/Hist...iew&format=pdf
    Briefly: in interesting for us period Arabs were using:
    -Nubian/Sudanese foot archers with longbows and quilted armours. Probably there were also Arab foot archers with both simple and composte bows but their skills started to decrease. Their tactic was ''shower shooting'' but rather Bizantine kind, with longer range and more power but slower than Persian kind
    -Ghulam horse archers. Their tactic was Persian, rapid kind of ''shower shooting''
    There is no information about noblemen HA.
    Berbers preferred javelins, they hadn't got archery tradition.

  3. #4423
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: The Great Conflicts main discussion thread. Please post here!

    Right...i found atleast a douzen of images of History Books from Amazon and Osprey that show Arabian HA from the 4th to 11th centuries.
    Images that ToS does not allow us to post that inticate that HA existed in those armies.
    Also the most famous companies of historical miniature manufactoring also show horse archers.
    Half of the historical articles say that did not exist HA and the other half that they did.
    The epic songs of Digenis give some clues about "mounted" archers of agarenoi (the other term of saracens).
    We realy are in a dead end.
    TGC in order to continue its development seak one or more desicated scripters to put our campaign scripts mess to an order plus to create new events and create the finall missing factions recruitment system. In return TGC will give permision to those that will help to use its material stepe by step. The result will be a fully released TGC plus many mods that will benefit TGC's material.
    Despite the mod is dead does not mean that anyone can use its material
    read this to avoid misunderstandings.

    IWTE tool master and world txt one like this, needed inorder to release TGC 1.0 official to help TWC to survive.
    Adding MARKA HORSES in your mod and create new varietions of them. Tutorial RESTORED.


  4. #4424

    Default Re: The Great Conflicts main discussion thread. Please post here!

    Well the Osprey books I've checked not shows any native Arab HA but some frontier units from Farghana, Khorasan etc.

    I would be not trust miniatures and illustrations always, there is many of them just simply influenced from the classic eastern warrior stereotype, illustration you showed in last page is Berber Horseman but showed as HA for example.
    Last edited by Tureuki; March 31, 2012 at 01:07 AM.

  5. #4425

    Default Re: The Great Conflicts main discussion thread. Please post here!

    AnthoniusII, give us titles of these books and pages were you've found your information.
    It will help us to find solution and make TGC mod with information included very difficult to contestation.

    As Tureuki wrote, In my sources (two Osprey books and websites I mentioned), there is no information about Arabian native HA in TGC area and timeframe, but It doesn't mean that noblemen for ex. in Persia weren't HA.
    I also agree with Tureuki about stereotype vision of Muslim warrior.
    About songs of Digenis: are you sure that they are related to Saracens from Holy Land or Egypt? As I said I don't want to prove that whole Muslim world didn't use HA. Saracens from Anadlusia were totaly different to those from India!
    Same about curved swords.
    I know that one of TGC task is to show as evolution of weapons, armours and tactics (for ex. famous influence of Khazar heavy cavalry to both Rus and Bizantine warfare). But evolution of sword from straight to curved and from Fatimid melee cavalry to Mamluk HA are rather later times.

    About image: there is description ''lightly armed Berber horseman''. I can't agree that he is lightly armed nor Berber used HA. But I must admit with one thing: yes, Berbers used horsemen

  6. #4426
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: The Great Conflicts main discussion thread. Please post here!

    1st sneakpic of Muslim peseantry that use Pacco's shields.

    There will be two kind of peseantry body types.
    In Syria and Egypt will use this type of dress with rather short tunics.
    In northern africa though peseantry will use longer tunics.
    Peseantry will include two units armed with similar shields.
    Levy javelinmen armed with javelins, knives and small axes.
    Levy spearmen armed with the same shields but with short spears and decorative knives and small axes.
    In rare cases the warriors will used simple painted round shields side by side with those wooden ones.
    CREDITS:
    Body model and texture plus head and head texture by Koultouras.
    Turbans and legs by Sumskilz
    Shield model and textures by Pacco.

    As for the horsearchery.
    I will gather the pics i have and make them a pack to upload them.
    But we seem to make the same stereotypic mistake for horsearchery as the one the majority makes for the muslims and their armors.
    Yesterday i played ETW ..and i had dragoons.
    Afcourse Dragoons with earlier version of muskets had to get down of their horses to shot. Dragoons though that had later version of muskets could fire over their horseback as long it did stay in its position.
    Then i remembered the diferences of the Roman (byzantine) horsearcher (koursores cavalarii) and the steppe ones.
    Steppe horsearchers could actually use their bows with their horses on the run!! Romans though used the wave style.
    Run-stop-shot-run-stop-shot-run...
    Steppe horsearchers reminded me the "new" Dragoons and Roman ones the old ones.
    "Stationary" horsearchery was always in use both in middle east and later in eastern Roman Empire.
    Yes javelin was the favorite weapon of islamic and roman armies but that did not mean that they did not used horsearchers even without the skills of the steppe ones.

    About "nobillity". Unforthunatly the knowlege of th eEnglish language that i have does not permit me to make you understand what i am trying to say.

    In the east ONLY "nobles" could have land owneship.
    But not all nobles belonged to the same class.
    Common folk could not own horse or could not afford to have descent armor. A "Faris" may look in the west european eyes like a soldier but in the Islamic world was a low rank nobleman and did not belong to common folk.
    The class of the "horsemen" had that recognition that the "Faris" title was used in Lebanon until late 1920s.
    I know few people with mixed Arabic and Greek origin that their surnames are changed forms of that "Faris" title.
    If Romans could shot arrows from a horseback being in a distance away from steppe warriors for some time...then why Arabs that conquered Persia and had common borders with turkic and other steppe people could not have been affected by them?
    How is it possible that in Yarmuc battle light horsearcher of the arabs caused so many casualties to Romans in the 7th century and then two centuries later that kind of warriors simply disapear?
    TGC in order to continue its development seak one or more desicated scripters to put our campaign scripts mess to an order plus to create new events and create the finall missing factions recruitment system. In return TGC will give permision to those that will help to use its material stepe by step. The result will be a fully released TGC plus many mods that will benefit TGC's material.
    Despite the mod is dead does not mean that anyone can use its material
    read this to avoid misunderstandings.

    IWTE tool master and world txt one like this, needed inorder to release TGC 1.0 official to help TWC to survive.
    Adding MARKA HORSES in your mod and create new varietions of them. Tutorial RESTORED.


  7. #4427

    Default Re: The Great Conflicts main discussion thread. Please post here!

    May be those rapid light cavalry were javelin armed ?

    I copied it from wiki but its originally from a Osprey book.

    Helmets used included gilded helmets similar to the silver helmets of the Sassanid empire. Mail was commonly used to protect the face, neck and cheeks either as an aventail from the helmet or as a mail coif. Heavy leather sandals as well as Roman-type sandal boots were also typical of the early Muslim soldiers. Armor included hardened leather scale or lamellar armor and mail armor. Infantry soldiers were more heavily armored than horsemen. Large wooden or wickerwork shields were used. Long-shafted spears were used, with infantry spears being 2.5 m (8.2 ft) long and cavalry spears being up to 5.5 m (18 ft) long. Short infantry swords like the Roman gladius and Sassanid long swords were used; long swords were usually carried by horsemen. Swords were hung in baldrics. Bows were about 2 metres (6.6 ft) long when unbraced, similar in size to the famous English longbow. The maximum useful range of the traditional Arabian bow was about 150 m (490 ft). Early Muslim archers, while being infantry archers without the mobility of horseback archer regiments, proved to be very effective in defending against light and unarmored cavalry attacks.

  8. #4428

    Default Re: The Great Conflicts main discussion thread. Please post here!

    Where do you find information that Arabs used HA in Yarmuk?
    If Romans could shot arrows from a horseback being in a distance away from steppe warriors for some time...then why Arabs that conquered Persia and had common borders with turkic and other steppe people could not have been affected by them?
    You still think about Saracens as oness. Arabs from Sycilia, Crete, Holy Land and North Africa hadn't borders with Turks and steppe people, they also didn't conquere Persia. Romans seems to be more influenced by steppe warfare(Avars, Khazars, Bulgars).
    ''Stationary'' horse archery was in use but by ghulams.
    Your reasoning about Dragoons is logical, but It is surmise not fact. Such concluding will lead us to strange conclusions. For ex. maybe also Franks influenced by Avars were using ''stationary'' horse archery?
    Similar situation is in case of mounted crossbowmen in XIV-XV centuries. In most countries they were fighting dismounted but in Poland and state of Teutonic Order they were fighting mounted, in wedge formation using ''nawija'' shooting tactic. Fact that Bizantine use HA doesn't mean that Saracens also.

    I've written also about progressive decline of archery skills amongst Arabs. So maybe quite rich Arab cavalrymen, having choice of mass of another weapon (spears, swords, maces, axes) simply didn't need bows. As knights in Europe: lance and sword for knight, bow and crossbow for peasants (or black infantry in Fatimid armies).

    About Faris: can't we simply say that Faris = Knight? It seems to be better word than ''noble''.

  9. #4429
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: The Great Conflicts main discussion thread. Please post here!

    Some 3d details on Pacco's shields.


    This is our standard 3d shield boss (modified each time to fit in everyking of shield model) that originaly made by Ste-fan.
    The main shield models and it textures are creations of Pacco.
    Here is how a peseant (levy) javelinman looks like now.


    Later we are going to change the tunic colors (for more varietion) add new heads (LuBu's and Sumskilz's) and that model consept will be used for peseant (levy) spearmen too.
    TGC in order to continue its development seak one or more desicated scripters to put our campaign scripts mess to an order plus to create new events and create the finall missing factions recruitment system. In return TGC will give permision to those that will help to use its material stepe by step. The result will be a fully released TGC plus many mods that will benefit TGC's material.
    Despite the mod is dead does not mean that anyone can use its material
    read this to avoid misunderstandings.

    IWTE tool master and world txt one like this, needed inorder to release TGC 1.0 official to help TWC to survive.
    Adding MARKA HORSES in your mod and create new varietions of them. Tutorial RESTORED.


  10. #4430
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: The Great Conflicts main discussion thread. Please post here!

    A view inside the game...Still the old map but never the less you can see varius details..
    TGC in order to continue its development seak one or more desicated scripters to put our campaign scripts mess to an order plus to create new events and create the finall missing factions recruitment system. In return TGC will give permision to those that will help to use its material stepe by step. The result will be a fully released TGC plus many mods that will benefit TGC's material.
    Despite the mod is dead does not mean that anyone can use its material
    read this to avoid misunderstandings.

    IWTE tool master and world txt one like this, needed inorder to release TGC 1.0 official to help TWC to survive.
    Adding MARKA HORSES in your mod and create new varietions of them. Tutorial RESTORED.


  11. #4431
    karaislam's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: The Great Conflicts main discussion thread. Please post here!

    hi anton who makes the unit cards?different style i liked.

  12. #4432
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: The Great Conflicts main discussion thread. Please post here!

    Quote Originally Posted by bordobere07 View Post
    hi anton who makes the unit cards?different style i liked.
    These cards and those of Chandax, Pechenegs and Magyars were made by Koultouras.

    My style is this.
    TGC in order to continue its development seak one or more desicated scripters to put our campaign scripts mess to an order plus to create new events and create the finall missing factions recruitment system. In return TGC will give permision to those that will help to use its material stepe by step. The result will be a fully released TGC plus many mods that will benefit TGC's material.
    Despite the mod is dead does not mean that anyone can use its material
    read this to avoid misunderstandings.

    IWTE tool master and world txt one like this, needed inorder to release TGC 1.0 official to help TWC to survive.
    Adding MARKA HORSES in your mod and create new varietions of them. Tutorial RESTORED.


  13. #4433
    Lü Bu's Avatar "Mightyest Man Alive"
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    Default Re: The Great Conflicts main discussion thread. Please post here!

    realy like those peasants...strat map models looks good too
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  14. #4434
    Legio's Avatar EMPRESS OF ALL THINGS
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    Default Re: The Great Conflicts main discussion thread. Please post here!

    Beautiful!!!!!!!!!

  15. #4435

    Default Re: The Great Conflicts main discussion thread. Please post here!

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    These cards and those of Chandax, Pechenegs and Magyars were made by Koultouras.

    My style is this.

    When we will be able to see Pecheneg and Magyar preview ?

  16. #4436
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: The Great Conflicts main discussion thread. Please post here!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tureuki View Post
    When we will be able to see Pecheneg and Magyar preview ?
    When we will find someone that has the historical knowlege to write the texts both of the preview and the units descr info ones.
    BTW the muslim "peasantry" will be ready soon.
    TGC in order to continue its development seak one or more desicated scripters to put our campaign scripts mess to an order plus to create new events and create the finall missing factions recruitment system. In return TGC will give permision to those that will help to use its material stepe by step. The result will be a fully released TGC plus many mods that will benefit TGC's material.
    Despite the mod is dead does not mean that anyone can use its material
    read this to avoid misunderstandings.

    IWTE tool master and world txt one like this, needed inorder to release TGC 1.0 official to help TWC to survive.
    Adding MARKA HORSES in your mod and create new varietions of them. Tutorial RESTORED.


  17. #4437

    Default Re: The Great Conflicts main discussion thread. Please post here!

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    When we will find someone that has the historical knowlege to write the texts both of the preview and the units descr info ones.
    I can try to do Pechenegs, but later someone with perfect English would have to check my text Also I think we could ask Cstadi for the help with Magyars. I mean I could try to write the text about them too as I have some nice Polish sources but I wouldn't be even half as good as Cstadi who he is native Magyar with all the access to great Magyar sources.


  18. #4438
    neoptolemos's Avatar Breatannach Romanus
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    Default Re: The Great Conflicts main discussion thread. Please post here!

    I have already made the unit descriptions for Pechenegs SN.
    Quem faz injúria vil e sem razão,Com forças e poder em que está posto,Não vence; que a vitória verdadeira É saber ter justiça nua e inteira-He who, solely to oppress,Employs or martial force, or power, achieves No victory; but a true victory Is gained,when justice triumphs and prevails.
    Luís de Camões

  19. #4439
    pacco's Avatar -master-of-none-
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    Default Re: The Great Conflicts main discussion thread. Please post here!

    Great progress!

    Skinner and modeller for Roma Surrectum
    Under the patronage of Tone
    my shield collection




  20. #4440
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: The Great Conflicts main discussion thread. Please post here!

    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian_Noble View Post
    I can try to do Pechenegs, but later someone with perfect English would have to check my text Also I think we could ask Csatadi for the help with Magyars. I mean I could try to write the text about them too as I have some nice Polish sources but I wouldn't be even half as good as Cstadi who he is native Magyar with all the access to great Magyar sources.
    Quote Originally Posted by neoptolemos View Post
    I have already made the unit descriptions for Pechenegs SN.
    Csatadi was the one that sugested the unit names but he had no available time to do the preview. All our units in the Magyar roster are Csatadi's recomedations.
    We can work a preview in slow speed never the less. I will start to gather the unit preview pictures.
    A Gift for good night:




    This was my 1st successfull attempt of narmal maping (i did not realise what i was doing but successfull it was ).
    The wooden shields come from Pacco both the model and the textures.
    The round shields and the 3d bosses are from Ste-fan.
    The unit uses the bodies and textures of Chandax peasants (as placeholders until new textures will be available on the same consept) made by Koultouras.
    The leather round shield textures are modifications by of 3 original made ones by Sumskilz and Matthaeus.

    Spearmen will be similar. Each unit uses 5 wooden shields and three round ones.
    I hope i did not disapointed you...
    Last edited by AnthoniusII; April 01, 2012 at 02:09 PM.
    TGC in order to continue its development seak one or more desicated scripters to put our campaign scripts mess to an order plus to create new events and create the finall missing factions recruitment system. In return TGC will give permision to those that will help to use its material stepe by step. The result will be a fully released TGC plus many mods that will benefit TGC's material.
    Despite the mod is dead does not mean that anyone can use its material
    read this to avoid misunderstandings.

    IWTE tool master and world txt one like this, needed inorder to release TGC 1.0 official to help TWC to survive.
    Adding MARKA HORSES in your mod and create new varietions of them. Tutorial RESTORED.


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