The Great Conflicts main discussion thread. Please post here!

[b257]

Will there still be Armenian AOR units?

[Marvzilla]

All Italian cities have 3 Millitia units.
Axemen
Javelinmen
Crossbowmen.

Thanks for the answer, so more or less the guys from the Lombard roster ? Or am I remembering things wrong.

[AnthoniusII]

We actually used Lombard roster as placeholder for these units. Lombards and Italian rebel cities plus Pope will have these guys in 1st place.

[BarnicleBill1]

I believe at one point you said that one of the Armenian units would be a possible Islamic bodyguard, am i remembering this correctly?

[Diocle]

Maybe it's just for I'm from Genoa, but those Xbowmen look very dangerous if used in the right way!

[AnthoniusII]

I believe at one point you said that one of the Armenian units would be a possible Islamic bodyguard, am i remembering this correctly?

No I said that Armenian units (Nobles/cataphract style warriors, border guards/heavy javelinmen and archers) will be available to everyone that will hold their areas.

Maybe it's just for I'm from Genoa, but those Xbowmen look very dangerous if used in the right way!

Actually, crossbow was the only alternative Italian cities had.
It requiers LESS training than any other kind of bow and allows the user better direct aim , espesialy when the user in on top of a wall.

[BarnicleBill1]

Ah, alright. Thanks for clearing that up!

[Wareg]

What do you think about power of 11th crossbow comparing to bows? What about crossbow powerstorke - I find somewhere that early Western crossbows had longer powerstoke than later, but I still don't know what does "longer" mean - 10 inches or 20 inches... Do you know estimated draw weight of 9-11th century bows? I know only that some of Viking bows were 90 lbs, and few also over 100 lbs. If you have got any info, please share with me.

[BarnicleBill1]

What will be the recruitment situation for factions like the Romans when they conquer into Syria, or the Bulgarians? Just basic units based on culture or local troops based on previous rulers?

[_Tartaros_]

yes, mostly conscripts and low tier units. In some areas the nobility will be available (areas where the nobility is defined by land). but all this is wip

[BarnicleBill1]

Thanks for the quick answer, it'll be interesting to see the final product

[Diocle]

Actually, crossbow was the only alternative Italian cities had.
It requiers LESS training than any other kind of bow and allows the user better direct aim , espesialy when the user in on top of a wall.

Consider that the Italian bowmen used longbows made of a very good wood (exported even in Britain .. ), infantry in any Langobard army was mainly composed by shielded longbowmen, all the Langobardic laws are very clear about this detail, and even the archaeological finds prove this peculiar characteristic of the Langobard warfare.

Anyway you're right from behind the walls (and on ships) crossbow is a good weapon.

VALE.

[Ragimund Von Wallat]

i remember seeing garrison document from the period in a osprey book from the 1100-1300 and crossbow was not 10% of the archers and they didint follow the rest of militias into battle but were kept on the wall at all time....i THINK that in italy the rise of the crossbow was in the 1400-1500 ,mays Diocle can clarify my statement

the only people using crossbow on a big scale in early middle age(800-1200) that i know of was the gascons,wich we know by treaty of frankish kings eagerly hiring them

[AnthoniusII]

News:
Finally i am very close to finish the next stage of units development. Health issues continue to bother me and my old mother and give me limited time for models.
Any way..
Lets give some answers.

What do you think about power of 11th crossbow comparing to bows? What about crossbow powerstorke - I find somewhere that early Western crossbows had longer powerstoke than later, but I still don't know what does "longer" mean - 10 inches or 20 inches... Do you know estimated draw weight of 9-11th century bows? I know only that some of Viking bows were 90 lbs, and few also over 100 lbs. If you have got any info, please share with me.

Crossbow is better in many aspects than an average bow.
1st CB's bolt has almost straight balistic trajectory. That make CB easier to hundle when it comes to aiming.
2nd Crossbow dows not require bothe hands inorder its string to maintain streched. Aka CB is restfull as weapon for its user.
3rd The actuall bow of the CB adds a bit more launch power. That means better penetration in smaller distances or less penetration in bigger distances.
There are bows though that have equal or better performance than CB but all require a life time commitment to train on them.
Some times we are confussing CB with arbalest. While arbalest uses the same principals with CB the machine to strech both the main bow and its string adds more power on the bolt itself.
In TGC time frame there were NO arbalests.

What will be the recruitment situation for factions like the Romans when they conquer into Syria, or the Bulgarians? Just basic units based on culture or local troops based on previous rulers?

Its too early to say but as _Tartaros_ mentioned all main rosters ingame will "contribute" low tier (peasantry level) and noble kind (local aristocracy) as AOR units as well.
From the 1st day we pointed out the fact that local poppulations do not disapear in a day.

Consider that the Italian bowmen used longbows made of a very good wood (exported even in Britain .. ), infantry in any Langobard army was mainly composed by shielded longbowmen, all the Langobardic laws are very clear about this detail, and even the archaeological finds prove this peculiar characteristic of the Langobard warfare.

Anyway you're right from behind the walls (and on ships) crossbow is a good weapon.

VALE.

Lombards had famous archers close in concept with those Longbowmen we know as English.
As FliegerAD, Absinthia and Matthaeus brought in our attention after their researches, bows in the shape of "longbows" were used in the germanic people long ago.
The fact though was that they were rare and most warriors though that it was not honorable to fight as archer.
Lombards have "longbow" archers in TGC but they have almost 0 melee abillity!

i remember seeing garrison document from the period in a osprey book from the 1100-1300 and crossbow was not 10% of the archers and they didint follow the rest of militias into battle but were kept on the wall at all time....i THINK that in italy the rise of the crossbow was in the 1400-1500 ,mays Diocle can clarify my statement

the only people using crossbow on a big scale in early middle age(800-1200) that i know of was the gascons,wich we know by treaty of frankish kings eagerly hiring them

Actually crossbow in Italy was imported by Arabs! You see the crossbow was not unknown to everyone but they had CBs based on diferent evolutionary lines.
Arabs found out crossbow via Sassanids that knew it via the trade roads with China.
Romans (the ones many still call Byzantines) knew CB as revolutionary model of cheiroballista.
German tribes saw CB when they invaded England where Gualish trinbes there used their own models of that weapon.

[BarnicleBill1]

What are these next units? Also, u hope the health issues troubling you and your mother desist. Nothing is enjoyable when its clouded by pain or discomfort.

[AnthoniusII]

Truth is that i am in a kind of "bad shape" for a year now..But i am still trying...
Anyway...
The step that is amost done is the re-creation of the Roman thematic units
The next one will be the finall completion of the Islamic units.
The 3rd step will be the finall completion of Great Moravian units.
The 4th will be the completion of a Serbian basic roster of 10 units.
The 5th stage will be the compeltion of AOR units.

[achilles-91]

I hope your health get better, and i wish same for your mother!
Can u tell us what kind of units are planed for Serbian roster ?

[Wareg]

The question is how powerful were 11th century crossbows.
We know from Anna Komnena description that Latin crossbow was streched during lying on back. It is time-consuming method but we know that early crossbows were mainly siege weapons.
The most widespread crossbow during Chinese Han dynasty was 6 dan crossbow (390 lb), probably also spanned while lying/sitting. By comparision we can guess that 11th century european crossbows were similar in poundage. However, Chinese crossbows had much longer powerstroke than later European ones, resulting much greater power of bolt. Even if we assume that early European crossbows had short powerstroke (as later European ones) and simple wooden limbs It will be equivalent of very strong 130 lb longbow. Probably there were also lighter crossbows spanned while standing.

There is also question how strong were Lombard bows - I will guess 90-110 lb range, similar to viking ones. Why do you think that Lombard archers were one of the best in this timeframe? Many other nations used longbows, other prefer more advanced composite ones, I don't see anything extraordinar in Lombard archery...

And last thing - padded armour wasn't widespread in Europe, except Lombards influenced by muslims - this type of armour was common only in muslim world and less probably some steppe people (mainly Iranian tribes). Aketon-like clothes is also on picture from Great Morava, but It may represent steppe rider.

[+Marius+]

The question is how powerful were 11th century crossbows.
We know from Anna Komnena description that Latin crossbow was streched during lying on back. It is time-consuming method but we know that early crossbows were mainly siege weapons.
The most widespread crossbow during Chinese Han dynasty was 6 dan crossbow (390 lb), probably also spanned while lying/sitting. By comparision we can guess that 11th century european crossbows were similar in poundage. However, Chinese crossbows had much longer powerstroke than later European ones, resulting much greater power of bolt. Even if we assume that early European crossbows had short powerstroke (as later European ones) and simple wooden limbs It will be equivalent of very strong 130 lb longbow. Probably there were also lighter crossbows spanned while standing.

There is also question how strong were Lombard bows - I will guess 90-110 lb range, similar to viking ones. Why do you think that Lombard archers were one of the best in this timeframe? Many other nations used longbows, other prefer more advanced composite ones, I don't see anything extraordinar in Lombard archery...

The crossbow business is all still very vague and factually inconclusive.
The heavy Chinese crossbow poundage is still very much up for debate as well as the reasoning behind the very short draw lengths of the European crossbow.

There is just so little we currently know for sure about the subject, which can clearly be seen in the strangeness of the Chinese having more powerful crossbows(when regarding powerstrokes) whilst having to deal with far less armor and far weaker armor than the medieval(especially late medieval) European crossbow had to deal with.

The issue also stands in the difference of used materials, construction techniques and rod design.

And last thing - padded armour wasn't widespread in Europe, except Lombards influenced by muslims - this type of armour was common only in muslim world and less probably some steppe people (mainly Iranian tribes). Aketon-like clothes is also on picture from Great Morava, but It may represent steppe rider.

Are you talking about this specific timeframe?

Then you are only partially right about the early decades of the mod, padded armor became widespread and basically became a integral part of the mail armor suit.

[Wareg]

The crossbow business is all still very vague and factually inconclusive.

It is true, but I rely on this little and unclear data simple cause there is lack of another - It is still better than random guesses.

There is just so little we currently know for sure about the subject, which can clearly be seen in the strangeness of the Chinese having more powerful crossbows(when regarding powerstrokes) whilst having to deal with far less armor and far weaker armor than the medieval(especially late medieval) European crossbow had to deal with.

It is really strange, probably about half of Han soldeirs were unarmoured, rest of them mostly wore sleeveless lamellar covering relatively small part of body. As far I know Xiongnu were also lighltly armoured, and unarmoured horses were easy targets.

Then you are only partially right about the early decades of the mod, padded armor became widespread and basically became a integral part of the mail armor suit.

There is no evidence that padding was used beneth mail before 12-13th century. Similar situation was with Roman lorica hamata - I think that most probable assumption is that both Roman soldiers, vikings and early knigts had few layers of simple clothes beneth mail. Aketon was taken from muslim world (I think most probably through Italy and Spain around 11-12th century) and wdiespreaded in Europe in 13th century. Question is if there was also eastern route - padded armour was known for Iranian tribes, some people think also that Great Moravia falconer is image of steppe horsemen:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...c2ae5d0d26.jpg