Compare US Education System to others

[Caelius]

{mod note}This discussion is a split off example of a threadjack from the Rise of China discussion thread. The topic here is interesting and valuable but clearly wiped away any opportunity to discuss the actual issues that might surround or lead to therise of Mainland China. -crandar

he does have 1 point; if you exclude the private top-of-the-line ivy league private schools in the US that very, very few people can afford to attend, the US educational system is ridiculous.
the public school system in the US, from kindergarten to highschool, is the worst of any modern nation.

http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2004/top500(1-100).htm

Just count the number of universities that have USA as their country (this is just an "overall" ranking, it doesn't even show how they'd be ranked by categories of specialization such as Research, Agriculture & Mechanics, etc.). As for the public school system I both agree and disagree, not only does it differ from state to state, but on a whole, it's radically on an institutional level, than the education systems found in Europe or other parts of the world, as well as the fact that almost no one ever takes the US' private school system into account either, which is far more efficient, and one that i'd love to see implemented for the public ones.

[BassV2]

Just count the number of universities that have USA as their country (this is just an "overall" ranking, it doesn't even show how they'd be ranked by categories of specialization such as Research, Agriculture & Mechanics, etc.). As for the public school system I both agree and disagree, not only does it differ from state to state, but on a whole, it's radically on an institutional level, than the education systems found in Europe or other parts of the world, as well as the fact that almost no one ever takes the US' private school system into account either, which is far more efficient, and one that i'd love to see implemented for the public ones.

Pointless. If you can't afford Private School, how can most of the population afford goign to Colledge or University without working like full-time, and taking yeras off saving up.,

Quoted for re-iteration, I'm through going around in circles with you Bass, put some money where your mouth is or be ignored.

Erm, do I care? I'm stating facts, if you do not wish to argue with me then don't refute my arguments. I'm still going to be on this thread.

[SovietDoom]

You aren't stating facts, you are stating sophistry and propaganda.

[BassV2]

You aren't stating facts, you are stating sophistry and propaganda.

Canadian Propoganda, okay

If you guys like to be gay, here it is: (please stay on topic, not accusing other people of lies and "i don't want to argue with you")

One who wanders from place to place without a permanent home or a means of livelihood.

That is dictionary.com's defenition. So that means MILLLIONS of people in the US don't have a pernament home (eg. renting a house), and losing a job = hobo too so how many jobless are there? Or salespeople or people with a flexible (eg. comission) are also hoboes, they don't hvae a stable income thereforre they can't ave a pernament home or means of livelihood. How many peopel have these jobs
:whistle

Wow, the land of freedom and $$ !

[Lee1026]

As a Chinese American I have to say that I find some of this stuff down right silly.

Pointless. If you can't afford Private School, how can most of the population afford goign to Colledge or University without working like full-time, and taking yeras off saving up.,

let's see: UC berkeley is fair cheap, and is one of the top universitys in the world; Harvard, the best, offers free tution to all students whose familys earn less then 40K a year.

you can buy more stuff in China with Y8.60 than in US with USD$1.00.

True; but a university prof. earns 80K USD a years in the US, and their chinese counter parts earn 5000Y a month which adds up to 60K Y a year. Which means that if one Y is as good in china as one USD is in USA the American still makes more.

the public school system in the US, from kindergarten to highschool, is the worst of any modern nation.

The US public school is a crummy system. Nevertheless it is vastly superior to it's chinese counterparts. A Chinese High school students gets though what the Americans call Calc 1. This is pretty good if you consider that their American counterparts are roughly a year behind at Pre-Calc. The problem is there is no way to move ahead in the Chinese system. Hence the best and the Brightest Americans will go further then the best and brightest Chinese. I.E. one kid is in my AP Calc class as a sophmore. If he keeps going at this rate he is going to get though linear Algbra, Vector Calc and all that fun stuff all by the time college rolls around.
The same goes in Science as well. The Chinese gets though the what Americans would call Honors Bio, Chem, and physics. (better then the normal American) but there is no way of getting ahead. Here there is AP Bio, Chem, and Physics that teach college material. And for those that is just way too smart (like that kid I mentioned earlier) they can take classes at the local Unversitys in the American system, whereas in the Chinese system he would be struck in classes that is far too easy for him.

Not to mention all the other prices that the chinese pay to make their kids learn pointless things (who in the world ever need to know how to spot the d/dx of a arcsin(X) when it is extremely well disguised? or learning how to do math without the calculators?) their engineers had all their creativety squeezed out of them by the time they get to college. Not to mention that they are so burnt out by then they can't learn all that well in college any way.

har har har. Please provide some examples./

Did already.

[BassV2]

et's see: UC berkeley is fair cheap, and is one of the top universitys in the world; Harvard, the best, offers free tution to all students whose familys earn less then 40K a year.

Heh, going to Harvard will automatically make you smart. :whistle

the American still makes more.

But he won't live like a king

Hence the best and the Brightest Americans will go further then the best and brightest Chinese. I.E. one kid is in my AP Calc class as a sophmore. If he keeps going at this rate he is going to get though linear Algbra, Vector Calc and all that fun stuff all by the time college rolls around.
The same goes in Science as well. The Chinese gets though the what Americans would call Honors Bio, Chem, and physics. (better then the normal American) but there is no way of getting ahead. Here there is AP Bio, Chem, and Physics that teach college material.

Agree with you for the most part, but how many people do you know goa head that far? It may be more motivating, but the Average Chinese would have better science, math, and stuff than the average american.

or learning how to do math without the calculators?

and that is pointless because? I'm not sure why you think it's pointfull to whip out a calculater to do 5 X 17.

As a Chinese American I have to say that I find some of this stuff down right silly.

How about your anti-chinese Chinese American counterpart?

[Lee1026]

But he won't live like a king

Neither will his chinese counterpart.

Agree with you for the most part, but how many people do you know goa head that far? It may be more motivating, but the Average Chinese would have better science, math, and stuff than the average american.

But the best Americans would be better on almost every account then the best Chinese due to their respective schooling.

and that is pointless because? I'm not sure why you think it's pointfull to whip out a calculater to do 5 X 17.

But learning to do 567 * 897 with out a calculater is pointless.

[BassV2]

But learning to do 567 * 897 with out a calculater is pointless.

Lots, it makes your brain more active and quicker to think to things. Anyways most Americans need to whip out a calculater for like 12 * 15.

But the best Americans would be better on almost every account then the best Chinese due to their respective schooling.

Schools don't make you smart.

Neither will his chinese counterpart.

Yes he will, when he's in a village or small city. but if he';s in a large city he won't be.

[dangerdog]

Originally posted by lee1026@Apr 3 2005, 05:22 PM
But the best Americans would be better on almost every account then the best Chinese due to their respective schooling.


But learning to do 567 * 897 with out a calculater is pointless.

Is that why chinese and asians always win the international math and science competitions? I'm sorry, but before college, the best chinese has to offer is better than the best we can put up by a mile. Our K-12 system is a complete joke. My parents ended up giving me homework they got from my relatives in china to keep me on par with what the chinese are learning. I was at the top of my class here in the US, but what we were learning in class, I could do it in my sleep. :lol

Being able to do 567 x 897 without a calculator is important. You are not always going to have a calculator around. No wonder I got 760 on the math part of SAT, and went though college with full scholarship, while the average joe gets 450 and paid though his nose. LOL :whistle Not to mention I placed out of calc, bio, and chem. See, being able to do simple math made me more money than you think.

[Marshal Qin]

On the school system in China.

I pretty much agree with lee1026. I taught in a university for a year, and have also taught every age group from kindergardern to people in their 60's. I also have a son who is 14 who goes to school at 6am and gets home at 6:30 pm, eats dinner and then does 3 hours of homework.....every day except weekends where he goes to extra-curricular classes and has 5-6 hours of homework.

This is why I am going to leave china. My son has no time to be a kid, and I refuse to subject my daughter (1 1/2yrs old) to this system. Kids are taught a lot of stuff here, but they have no time to comprehend what they are learning. They can quote, recite and have awesome memories for numbers and names, but when it comes to the practicality of using what they have learned the school system fails them. I feel so sorry for kids here, but to try to give my son time to be a kid means that he will fail in his exams. learning here is exam oriented - not life oriented.

e.g. Kids learn english from day one at school. By university they all tell me that they know 4000+ words (they actually count how many words they know...), but they are unable to make decent sentences unless they have been taught that exact sentence previously. They cannot say words by sounding out the letters unless they have been told how to say the word previously. If a student is told to memorise a dialogue, including new vocabulary, its easy for him to do so, but if you then ask them to make their own dialogue using the same words in a different context they cannot. I am not a qualified teacher, but in one year at the university I raised the average pass mark for students studying english and sitting the national exam from 30% to 50% because I taught them how to use the language rather than memorise words. I had kids in the kindergarden I volunteered at calling me up on the telephone, and their parents were saying that sometimes they couldn't understand their child at home because he/she was using english to ask/say things.

I equate the school system here with teaching a parrot to talk. It can say the words but has no idea of the meaning.

[BassV2]

Originally posted by Marshal Qin@Apr 3 2005, 09:15 PM
On the school system in China.

I pretty much agree with lee1026. I taught in a university for a year, and have also taught every age group from kindergardern to people in their 60's. I also have a son who is 14 who goes to school at 6am and gets home at 6:30 pm, eats dinner and then does 3 hours of homework.....every day except weekends where he goes to extra-curricular classes and has 5-6 hours of homework.

This is why I am going to leave china. My son has no time to be a kid, and I refuse to subject my daughter (1 1/2yrs old) to this system. Kids are taught a lot of stuff here, but they have no time to comprehend what they are learning. They can quote, recite and have awesome memories for numbers and names, but when it comes to the practicality of using what they have learned the school system fails them. I feel so sorry for kids here, but to try to give my son time to be a kid means that he will fail in his exams. learning here is exam oriented - not life oriented.

e.g. Kids learn english from day one at school. By university they all tell me that they know 4000+ words (they actually count how many words they know...), but they are unable to make decent sentences unless they have been taught that exact sentence previously. They cannot say words by sounding out the letters unless they have been told how to say the word previously. If a student is told to memorise a dialogue, including new vocabulary, its easy for him to do so, but if you then ask them to make their own dialogue using the same words in a different context they cannot. I am not a qualified teacher, but in one year at the university I raised the average pass mark for students studying english and sitting the national exam from 30% to 50% because I taught them how to use the language rather than memorise words. I had kids in the kindergarden I volunteered at calling me up on the telephone, and their parents were saying that sometimes they couldn't understand their child at home because he/she was using english to ask/say things.

I equate the school system here with teaching a parrot to talk. It can say the words but has no idea of the meaning.

this is why people like dangerdog are so smart, it's the combo!

[mib]

Originally posted by lee1026@Apr 3 2005, 05:22 PM
But the best Americans would be better on almost every account then the best Chinese due to their respective schooling.

Having a few of the best minds in the whole world does not mean the entire country's population is suddenly the most enlightened and learned. Overall, it is still the AVERAGE standard that counts. Face it, how many of you are going to become Nobel Prize Laureates? Ivy League is good for those people who aspire that high, but for most people, they just need a means of making a living, and that is something you learn from public high school and community college. :rolleyes

My parents ended up giving me homework they got from my relatives in china to keep me on par with what the chinese are learning. I was at the top of my class here in the US, but what we were learning in class, I could do it in my sleep. laughing.gif

Me too! Though translating maths questions from Chinese to English is a bit bothersome.

[mib]

Originally posted by Marshal Qin@Apr 3 2005, 09:15 PM
On the school system in China.

I pretty much agree with lee1026. I taught in a university for a year, and have also taught every age group from kindergardern to people in their 60's. I also have a son who is 14 who goes to school at 6am and gets home at 6:30 pm, eats dinner and then does 3 hours of homework.....every day except weekends where he goes to extra-curricular classes and has 5-6 hours of homework.

This is why I am going to leave china. My son has no time to be a kid, and I refuse to subject my daughter (1 1/2yrs old) to this system. Kids are taught a lot of stuff here, but they have no time to comprehend what they are learning. They can quote, recite and have awesome memories for numbers and names, but when it comes to the practicality of using what they have learned the school system fails them. I feel so sorry for kids here, but to try to give my son time to be a kid means that he will fail in his exams. learning here is exam oriented - not life oriented.

e.g. Kids learn english from day one at school. By university they all tell me that they know 4000+ words (they actually count how many words they know...), but they are unable to make decent sentences unless they have been taught that exact sentence previously. They cannot say words by sounding out the letters unless they have been told how to say the word previously. If a student is told to memorise a dialogue, including new vocabulary, its easy for him to do so, but if you then ask them to make their own dialogue using the same words in a different context they cannot. I am not a qualified teacher, but in one year at the university I raised the average pass mark for students studying english and sitting the national exam from 30% to 50% because I taught them how to use the language rather than memorise words. I had kids in the kindergarden I volunteered at calling me up on the telephone, and their parents were saying that sometimes they couldn't understand their child at home because he/she was using english to ask/say things.

I equate the school system here with teaching a parrot to talk. It can say the words but has no idea of the meaning.

That's just English, what about maths, chemistry, physics, biology, Chinese? At least 7 years ago they had decent maths... I did not learn my trigo in American High School, but grade 3... Of course, that's just for a 'gifted' guy like me :lol

PS. Grade 3, I didn't even know how to write from A to Z... Imagine sin, cos, tan, cot, sec, csc! :lol It was like drawing! :grin

[BassV2]

PS. Grade 3, I didn't even know how to write from A to Z... Imagine sin, cos, tan, cot, sec, csc! laughing.gif It was like drawing!

Heh, in Canada, it's even worse, all I knew was trig and alg in elementary grade.6 and I was supposed to be "the best in class" :lol

[Marshal Qin]

Originally posted by mib@Apr 3 2005, 11:30 PM

That's just English, what about maths, chemistry, physics, biology, Chinese? At least 7 years ago they had decent maths... I did not learn my trigo in American High School, but grade 3... Of course, that's just for a 'gifted' guy like me :lol

PS. Grade 3, I didn't even know how to write from A to Z... Imagine sin, cos, tan, cot, sec, csc! :lol It was like drawing! :grin

true its just english, but I have close contact with the teaching community (my wife is a teacher) and they all have exactly the same method of teaching. The same reliance on being able to quote verbatim and remember tons of information but innability to use that information in different situations is still the main problem. Its a creativity issue.

As another example:
The staff in my hotels and ships do not think. they do not see problems and try to find solutions to those problems by utilising the resources of their own brain or the help of others. they expect to be told exactly what to do, when to do it and to what standard in a step by step process, clearly laid out on paper and then shown an examlple. Even then they don't always get it. This is for my managers and even the other directors too. You have no idea how frustrating it is trying to get things done when I end up thinking for, and doing the job of, every director, manager & supervisor in every department in every business that we own.

This shows the ability of adults after they have finished their schooling and gone out into the real world. Many are just not prepared for real life after finishing at uni. In the university I was in, the students - from late teenagers to post grads and adult classes - were all sitting at little schooldesks similar to what I was using when I was in primary school (6-12 yrs old), told what to write, what to read, when to wake up (living in dormitories) and when to go to bed.

I'm constantly having to go back over what I thought I'd done, so I'm currently trying to teach them 3 simple words - look, think, speak - in the hope that the concept will get through to them.

On top of all that, teachers are judged upon the number of students who pass or fail their classes, so it is in their best interests for teachers to pass students rather than let them fail. corruption is taught right from the very beginning, as the parents of students who are doing poorly will intervene to get their kids into good schools (by bribing teachers) despite their marks. As a teaher at the univsersity I still remember all the free dinners I ate that students took me to - though they still ended up failing. 'thanks for dinner but your marks still suck...'. I even had 2 very lovely young girls ask me out to dinner then tell me not to bring my wife.....(no I didn't go).


I do agree, though, that the majority of US citizens I met when I lived there were far less capable in the basics than Chinese kids, but how far should one sacrifice quality of life for education? there has to be a tradeoff. perhaps the Chinese go too far and the US not far enough. The more I look at these 2 systems, the happier I am that I grew up in Australia.

[fallingstar]

My friends in Hong Kong even says they absolutely have no time to watch the telly due to weekly tests from the schools. Others friends in Japan said even homework is done, you have to learn other stuff, hardly any telly? :wack :8

[dangerdog]

Originally posted by fallingstar@Apr 4 2005, 07:50 AM
My friends in Hong Kong even says they absolutely have no time to watch the telly due to weekly tests from the schools. Others friends in Japan said even homework is done, you have to learn other stuff, hardly any telly? :wack :8

yes, it's harsh. Even though I grew up in the US, my parents were very harsh on my education. Most of the chinese kids that grew up in the US has gone through what I have gone though -- drilled into the perfect toy soldiers.

It's the secret of our success; the reason why we are the "model minority", why we have a higher average income than even the whites. Yes, we are successful, but it does come at a huge cost of "fun". But having grown up, I think my parents were right in what they have done, even though I hated them for it at the time. And when I have kids, I'll probably sharpen them into the same razor edge. There is a saying in Chinese "zi bu shao, nai fu zi guo ye", which means "if the son isn't good, the fault lies with the father".

I agree, it's not compassionate, it's short on personal freedom, but more parental control in this matter has proven it's worth. One only needs to compare us chinese (and most asian) americans with other minorities to see why. We came poor, we came discriminated against, but though our faith in education and hardship, we rose above the rest. :cool

[Xiaodun]

Originally posted by fallingstar@Apr 4 2005, 07:50 AM
My friends in Hong Kong even says they absolutely have no time to watch the telly due to weekly tests from the schools. Others friends in Japan said even homework is done, you have to learn other stuff, hardly any telly? :wack :8

Of course, since the idiots in government screwed up our education system, every Japanese person who wants to amount to anything in life has to go to cram school after school every day in hopes of getting into a decent middle/high school.

[fallingstar]

Hold it how did the govern screw the education up?

Why do they want to do that, like what is cram school?

[mib]

Originally posted by dangerdog@Apr 4 2005, 11:11 AM
yes, it's harsh. Even though I grew up in the US, my parents were very harsh on my education. Most of the chinese kids that grew up in the US has gone through what I have gone though -- drilled into the perfect toy soldiers.

Yes, we are successful, but it does come at a huge cost of "fun". But having grown up, I think my parents were right in what they have done, even though I hated them for it at the time. And when I have kids, I'll probably sharpen them into the same razor edge. There is a saying in Chinese , which means "if the son isn't good, the fault lies with the father".

I agree, it's not compassionate, it's short on personal freedom, but more parental control in this matter has proven it's worth. One only needs to compare us chinese (and most asian) americans with other minorities to see why. We came poor, we came discriminated against, but though our faith in education and hardship, we rose above the rest. :cool

"zi bu shao, nai fu zi guo ye"

zi bu jiao, nai fu zhi guo ye

Sorry for nitpicking! Looks like you still have some Chinese homework to do! :rolleyes

It's the secret of our success; the reason why we are the "model minority", why we have a higher average income than even the whites.

But not the Jews! Both are 'model minorities', but Jews in general have much more fun than Chinese!? What gives? :wack

So I think the recipe for success is not really the Chinese 'style' of education, but something else... but I don't know about the Jews and their education method, so I can't rightly say anything.