Oh what to do?

[Xiaodun]

I dont know how much media coverage about this you guys get in the west, but recently there has been a huge wave of Anti Japanese protest in China. Chinese mobs have attacked Japanese restaraunts (which were all owned by Chinese civilians), thrown rocks and bottles of beer at the Japanese embassy, and there has even been a report of two Japanese homestay students being hit in the head by a Chinese man simply because they were Japanese. However, the Chinese government isnt apologiezing for these incidents.

Basicly this to summarize what I and a lot of other Japanese civilians are thinking on this matter.

Anti Chinese opinions

-The Senkakus are our property as they have been for over a century, just because the Chinese are claiming it to be their's (from just a few centuries ago and right after they found oil on the island to) doesnt make it Chinese territory.

-Attacking Japanese stores and Japanese people is just plain stupid, ignorant and barbaric. The Chinese have a problem with our idiotic government right? Then why do you guys assault Japanese civilians? Thats just racisim.

Pro Chinese opinions

-The Japanese government should formally apologize for the crimes in Nanking and other areas of China. If to just attempt to clean the slate

-The Japanese government also should formally teach the crimes commited by Japanese soldiers (I dont know why, everyone knows about them).

However, even if the Japanese government does act accordingly to my opinions I doubt that the Chinese will stop buring the rising sun. Can you guys give your opinions on this matter?

[Ldvs]

I'm far from being expert in Japanese and Chinese relationships. However, to answer your first question, no there's isn't much cover about these unfortunate events in the west, not in France at least. They were too busy with the Pope's funeral.
In a way, these "riots" remind me the way some Chinese deal with Taiwan, although I doubt they would dare to threaten Japan openly or militarily. As to why they attack Japanese civilians the answer is quite easy to find: they are at hand and cannot fight back.
The current government can't be held responsible for the crimes the Japanese committed in Nanking during the war. Of course that could help lessen outright hostility, but according to your report, it seems to be an excuse among others and they hide their true purpose behind it.

However, even if the Japanese government does act accordingly to my opinions I doubt that the Chinese will stop buring the rising sun

Yes, they are rather tenacious thus I doubt these acts will cease completely.

[wilpuri]

The incident has been getting a fair amount of coverage on BBC. I think the Japanese Government should formally apologise, as did the post-Soviet Russian government apologise to Finland and the Baltic States (Or did they?). Then that would be over and done with. However, I think the riots seem to be rather void of any real reason, except opposing Japan's bid to join the security council.

[Sulla]

-The Japanese government also should formally teach the crimes commited by Japanese soldiers (I dont know why, everyone knows about them).

The Japanese must teach their children an unvarnished version of their history and this is essential. The Germans don't often like talking about WWII but they all tend to know what happened and the crimes that were committed.

[morble]

hm, I don't actually see Japan apologizing, because they would be forced to revise some rather central views of themselves. For example, Japan was forced to attack Pearl Harbor, because the US threatened their oil supplies. Also from the Japanese POV, they did not commit atrocities, they were just taking care of business (and everyone else is exaggerating or lying). I believe these POVs are still taught to Japanese schoolchildren today; though, others like Wild Bill Kelso, can give more direct evidence than my mere hearsay of this.

[wilpuri]

Doesn't necessarily mean changing POV. Russia apologized officially, but as is apparent here, they don't regard the Soviet Union as an evil empire, in fact far from it. Some see it as the saviour of Europe.

[OTZ]

Has the Japanese government not already apologised 17 times to China since the end of the war? I think I may have read this on BBC/CNN.

[Kanaric]

The Japanese government is usually hypocritical with their warcrimes.


Afterall they were offended by a history museum's piece on the end of World War 2 because they didn't say anything negative about the dropping of the Atomic Bomb, yet they dont want to have their education show what they did to Allied POWs in WW2.

[Marshal Qin]

for the Chinese (and several other SE asian nations) its a combination of a lot of things.

At people level, they don't forget Nanjing, people are still dying from chemical weapons being dug up around the country, the comfort women are still being denied compensation (along with the families of those who were part of Japanese experiments), Japan is revising its school textbooks periodically to downplay what was done during the war, and Koizumi keep visiting a shrine which contains the remains of class A war criminals.

At government level, there is the border dispute (continental shelf vs half way point) and the islands above taiwan. There's also pressure to ensure the Japanese don't get a permanent seat on the security council.

Where I work (in hospitality) we are on the lookout for potential threats to our Japanese guests, though in central China its not really an issue afaik.

[Tiwaz]

Originally posted by Sulla71@Apr 12 2005, 10:36 AM
The Japanese must teach their children an unvarnished version of their history and this is essential. The Germans don't often like talking about WWII but they all tend to know what happened and the crimes that were committed.

Does anyone actually teach "unvarnished" version of history? Well, Germany is close to that but I would put it rather as a reason of postwar occupation and allied finger in schoolbooks etc.

Not to hijack this thread but overall the reasons, actions and other things relating to WW2 are rarely thought with objectivity in any nation and if we are to demand one party to do so we must be ready to walk to the mirror and look at our own sins and how they can be viewed differently. Usually our "own" acts of horror are for some reason "necessary evil" or we find some other justification for them. When we are ready to call those acts with their real names and teach about them we can expect same from others.

[Xiaodun]

Originally posted by wilpuri@Apr 12 2005, 09:36 AM
The incident has been getting a fair amount of coverage on BBC. I think the Japanese Government should formally apologise, as did the post-Soviet Russian government apologise to Finland and the Baltic States (Or did they?). Then that would be over and done with. However, I think the riots seem to be rather void of any real reason, except opposing Japan's bid to join the security council.

Japanese-Chinese relations have been horrible lately. When the Japanese team won the Asian soccer cup last year, the Chinese fans erupted and began a massive anti Japan riot. Then there is the problem of the Senkakus (which I belive is Japanese territory like it has been for over a century), and the CHinese sent nuclear subs cruising through Japanese seas, and recently there is the problem with Japan getting into the security council (if France gets to get in, despite having half of our economical power theres no reason we shouldnt).

Also the Japanese people know mostly about the crimes in China and Korea, mostly because either the teachers tell the students themselves or because their parents tell their children. Unfortunatly there are always a few right wingers who wont admit it, like governer Ishihara Shintaro (who I think would be a perfect Prime Minister, if not for this fact).

Besides, I doubt apologizing would do anything. Every country creates a fictional enemy to prepare against. In America it was the communists and now it is Islamic terrorists, in Japan its North Korea. And people also love to hate a nation. Even if Japan apologizes, the chinese will just scream that our apology doesnt bring the 6 million dead in Nanking to life

[wilpuri]

Originally posted by deathdoom56@Apr 13 2005, 11:02 AM
Japanese-Chinese relations have been horrible lately. When the Japanese team won the Asian soccer cup last year, the Chinese fans erupted and began a massive anti Japan riot. Then there is the problem of the Senkakus (which I belive is Japanese territory like it has been for over a century), and the CHinese sent nuclear subs cruising through Japanese seas, and recently there is the problem with Japan getting into the security council (if France gets to get in, despite having half of our economical power theres no reason we shouldnt).

Who did the Senkakus belong to earlier? Parts of my country were annexed 65 years ago, illegally, and I still regard it as unjust. Not that I would like the territories back, anything value that those territories had (except for sentimental) has been utterly destroyed.

[Xiaodun]

Enjoy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senkaku_Islands.

As much Ive seen, i think its Japanese land. Besides if China can claim control over the islands because of what might have happened in the Ming Era, then they can also claim control of Japan itself.

And also it seems like the Chinese are planning another huge riot this weekend from whats on its websites.

[Wild Bill Kelso]

Well I will add what I have noticed while living and teaching in the Japanese Education System. For starters, before even getting to Japan we are told that is probably best not to discuss the second world war with staff members as many are uncomfortable talking about it. I think though, for some of the younger teachers, it is that they simply don't know what happened. I feel that the problem with most young Japanese is that they are totally naieve of the actions commited 2 generations ago. They do teach about WW2, but not near enough in my opinion. One would expect that this major event in thier long history, possibly one of the greatest, would receive a lot more attention in high school classes than the current few pages alloted to it. Unfortunatly, Japanese history studies tend to take a beginning to the now approach rather than the opposite. Simply put, there isn't enough time for Japanese students to learn all of thier extensive history by the time High School finishes. I feel that it would be wiser to teach kids recent events which will affect them in thier future dealings with thier regional nieghbours, rather than have them memorise the names of every emporer since the ascendence of the Yamato clan. To make matters worse University entrance exam questions, which are the sole purpose of studying in high school, hardly focus on recent events and tend to be aimed at ancient history. So the Japanese high school student really has no chance or incentive to find out the recent past.

The apology issue is a rather intresting one. For starters I would like you all to see this link:

Japans Wartime apologies.

Particulary this one

04/03/2001. Chief Cabinet Secretary Yasuo Fukuda. "Japan humbly accepts that for a period in the not too distant past, it caused tremendous damage and suffering to the people of many countries, particularly to those of Asian nations, through its colonial rule and aggression, and expresses its deep remorse and heartfelt apology for this. Such recognition has been succeeded by subsequent Cabinets and there is no change regarding this point in the present Cabinet" (Comments by the Chief Cabinet Secretary, Yasuo Fukuda on the history textbooks to be used in junior high schools from 2002. (Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Japan Web Site)

I don't know about you guys, but these come from official government sites and look like apologies to me. Unfortuntaly they don't specifically say during the Second World War. I am not sure why, possibly due to the nature of the Japanese language since it is assumed that everyone knows what event is being discussed.

The only problem is that there is no recognition to refresh the memories of Japanese people of what happened. During August they have some war documentaries, but they mostly focus on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. There is no official day of remorse/apology, which I really feel there should be. Something solemn and meaningful, to truly show that the Japanese government feels that the actions of the past were indeed tragic.

As far as the land claims go, I cannot say. I really don't know enough about them to make any meaningful contribution.

For anyone visiting the Osaka area I recommend a visit to the Osaka Peace Museum. It is full of a wealth of information about ww2. I was surprised that a government museum took full responsibility for Japans wartime past and openly discussed events such as the Nanking Massacre and the Korean slaves brought to Japan. It pulls no punches and lays the blame firmly where it should be. Hopefully most schools in the area take thier children there for a field trip at least once.


This section talks about the war in China and the Rape of Nanking, again, the description of Japanese autrocities are not watered down.