Safavid - Faction Thread

[Ahiga]

How would Qezelbash Infantry have fought with muskets - Would they or were they trained by French or Europeans to fight like Line Infantry? Or did they fight like most musketry did in the Middle East, as irregulars who took targets and fired individually typically not in a solid line formation?

According to Persianfan at: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...04#post4665404 Was the Sarbaz the European-trained Infantry who would fight with musket as Europeans would (in rank or platoon fire)? If Sarbaz and Qezelbash were not those who fought in European style, who were?

I understand the Tofangci are basically the irregular 'light' infantry, comparable to say Pandours of Austria.

[Dr. Oza]

yea... the azeri turks(safavids) ruled the persians so the persians obviously claim them...

[Cynwyn]

I've been reading John Chardin's interesting account of Isfahan - although the free online version I came across has omitted all his anecdotes grrr - and I was wondering if anyone could recommend further sources. Early 17th century in particular. Also, any historical works which puts it into context.

Chardin was a jeweller who was travelling east to sell diamonds and comes across as an ingenue who allowed the Persians to run rings round him in his negotiations....

[persianfan247]

How would Qezelbash Infantry have fought with muskets - Would they or were they trained by French or Europeans to fight like Line Infantry? Or did they fight like most musketry did in the Middle East, as irregulars who took targets and fired individually typically not in a solid line formation?

According to Persianfan at: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...04#post4665404 Was the Sarbaz the European-trained Infantry who would fight with musket as Europeans would (in rank or platoon fire)? If Sarbaz and Qezelbash were not those who fought in European style, who were?

I understand the Tofangci are basically the irregular 'light' infantry, comparable to say Pandours of Austria.

I have the book "War and Peace in Qajar Persia" This may not be in the Time period you are hoping for though.
http://www.amazon.com/War-Peace-Qaja...1759808&sr=8-1
Sarbaz were created in the 19th century under the Qajar Shah Fath Ali Shah and his son the Crown Prince Abbas Mirza. They formed part of the nezam-e jadid force the equivalent of the Ottoman Nizam-i cedid. This also included a small amount of European style lancers(in the picture I posted in the other thread you will notice the lancer has a European Saber rather then a Scimitar).

I'm pretty sure the Qezelbash never fought as Infantry so CA got that wrong in Empire and the Ghulams created by Shah Abbas I included Cavalry, Infantry armed with Muskets and Artillery and I have read about the Tofangci, but Ive forgotten everything about them other then they were Musketeers.

If you need any help researching I can always get this book out from the library again http://www.amazon.com/Iran-Under-Saf...1760081&sr=1-2

[Big Pacha]

I almost missed that thread! How could I?!!!

Thanks to Selim & others excellent work.

About ETW Safavids: I began a Persia campaign in ETW. Slow paced, remote, but so cool! Anybody interested by screenshots of persian troops, battles, my Empire or some strategy advices? I've just pushed the Turks out of middle east and allied with the Mughal cousins vs. the Marathas. Europe is very far away but those british & dutch colonialists are becoming more and more bold...

I tried some "unplayable" factions (Morocco, Pirates, etc) and IMHO Persia is the only ones deserving to be playable on the vanilla campaign (full roster, big capital city, research available, "real" empire, etc). The Mughals could be playable but on that timeframe, is that interesting to keep on defending & struggling hard not to crumble vs. Hindu full stacks? Not sure...
Check the Rise of the Mughals mod for better Indian experience Currently at work, with Shogun144, Copperknickers (mod leader), Chagatai Khan & other TW aficionados.

EDIT: my small abstract about Safavid persia HERE, remember? Check the "spoiler".

[The Noble Lord]

Safavids definitely deserve a thread. Its a shame that they did are not portrayed in the ETW as they should be.

[Big Pacha]

This is my own personal ETW Safavid Empire in 1741, for those who'd like to discover this faction. It's been playable using the All Factions unlocked NoFow mini-mod (one file only) and considered a "minor" faction by the game, but as you all know Sega and CA will burn in hell for that...

Anyway, I took the reins of Safavid Persia in ETW, who starts with 4 provinces including very large and rich Persia itself and a well-developed Azerbaïjan. Afghanistan and Baluchistan are very poor and remote, but their deserts are natural wallas against any Indian invasion, and the Mughal cousins are very friendly. The Eastern Front is safe from now but beware of revolts in Afghanistan who has a high unrest level (Mujaheddin!) as you can expect.

Global ETW Map of Persia and Middle-East after a long but victorious War against the Ottoman arch-rivals. Attention, big sized pictures.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The first challenge is to control and beat your neighbors, especially warmonging Daguestan and Georgia. The Ottoman Empire will take this opportunity to attack you, exactly as they actually did IRH. But this time, you comand and reverse the odds.

I did OK playing in H/H and finally took down all 3, stopping at the doorsteps of Anatolia and pushing through Middle-east and Egypt. Now the Ottomans are logically backstabbed by all their European foes, which left me free hands to conquer all Maghreb.

The Western Marches: I'm now in Algiers with my best General & Army. They're tired, decimated, living in ruins, but victorious!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I now enjoy a period of relative peace because Ottomans have been badly weakened, Barbary States have been crushed and Europeans are my friends since I got rid of Moorish seadogs for them. Well... Britain and the Dutch are beginning to lure on my lands with colonialist envy. Caution is required.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

As you can see, my Safavid Shah (btw CA could have taken out "Sultan") is very old and weak. Actually he succeeded to his brother who was even worse. He's a puppet in agolden cage. The reality of the power is in the hands of the Grand Vizier and his Ministers, all excellent.

The expansion of "my" Safavid Empire wasn't due to our own policies but to the turmoil in Caucasus and the inept Ottoman governors of Middle-East and Africa. I never had to declare war myself, even if I logically allied with the rising Russian Empire so Europeans would think twice before trying anything against us.

Thanks to a booming commerce, we could afford to take a unique opportunity by sending an "afghan" Safavid army in India. In Western India he Hindus have rebelled against Mughal harsh rule, so I decided to submit them and acquire their wealth. It worked fine except for the high unrest. Now I even have an Indian outpost in the heart of India. This could pull me into trouble though...

The Eastern Marches: an opportunistic move.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Here we are now in 1741. I hope I helped you discover this Faction, its lands, units, opportunities etc. More to come about Units. I guess Ahiga will make a nice post about Qizlibashi musketeers.

PS: game interface in French, but you can deal with that ~BP

[Selim Yavuz]

Great stuff there Pacha. I wasn't aware that the Safavids were now playable, but now that I am, I will definitely jump right in to playing them. The Ottoman's rivals to the East will be fun indeed, nothing like flattening the Turks and showing the world just who has the "Magnificent" monarchs.

[Big Pacha]

Great stuff there Pacha. I wasn't aware that the Safavids were now playable, but now that I am, I will definitely jump right in to playing them. The Ottoman's rivals to the East will be fun indeed, nothing like flattening the Turks and showing the world just who has the "Magnificent" monarchs.

Teþekkür ederim
Persia is playable using the All Factions Unlocked NoFow mini-mod, by Lazy Knight & others. This is a startpos (ex-descr_strat) change.
Now they have Victory Conditions! Enjoy

Feel free to share your experience, but don't expect "magnificent" rulers (faction leaders are terrible) or modern troops: Qizlibashi are the best infantry you can get and you start with crappy desert tribesmen and peasant mob. Cavalry is better (Sipahis & War Elephants at the end). The campaign itself is very slow paced due to underdevelopment, tech restrictions and a remote position, which is also an advantage. Your natural frontiers (deserts) protect you in the East, allowing a focus on the North-west, especially Dagestan, Georgia and Ottoman-ruled Armenia. Mesopotamia is empty unless the AI makes a smart move.

That was my first Safavid Strategy Spoiler

[AmiR TimuR]

I love to play as Safavids. Now my Empire is from Afganistan to Hungary. But I didn't touch Ottomans. destroyed Russia and reach inside Europe

[Big Pacha]

I love to play as Safavids. Now my Empire is from Afganistan to Hungary. But I didn't touch Ottomans. destroyed Russia and reach inside Europe

Congrats, Mighty Shah! Any pics? Btw how did you manage not to get in war with the Ottomans? They're not realyy Persia's friend and their small mesopotamian army is aimed at Azerbaïjan. I guess you consuered Russia (wow!) from Georgia & Dagestan right?

[persianfan247]

I know this is the Safavids but heres a picture of the Sarbaz and Abbas Mirza defeating the Russians

[The Noble Lord]

Hey nice article and pics Big Pacha. Let's organize something when it comes to the Safavids and to have them in the mod.

[Lord Claremorris]

Great pictures there Persian fan. I've recently been reading "The Great Game" and read quite abit about the Persian attempts to check Russian expansion into the Caucasus. They proved a much harder nut to crack then we here in the West are led to believe. I bet if Persia and the Ottomans could have put their differences aside and joined together, they could have blocked the advance of the Bear into the region.

[Big Pacha]

Hey nice article and pics Big Pacha. Let's organize something when it comes to the Safavids and to have them in the mod.

Definitely and Supas

Great pictures there Persian fan. I've recently been reading "The Great Game" and read quite abit about the Persian attempts to check Russian expansion into the Caucasus. They proved a much harder nut to crack then we here in the West are led to believe. I bet if Persia and the Ottomans could have put their differences aside and joined together, they could have blocked the advance of the Bear into the region.

That's right. The weakness of Persia & Azerbaïjan greatly helped "the Bear" and so did the Ottoman pashas who let the Russians deal with those rebellious Caucasians. They had enough with Armenians and Caucasus mountains can be a deadly trap even for modern armies. It's an ideal place for guerilla warfare and Dagestan has always been... well... Dagestan: culturally very rich but a tribal and political nightmare. It's a trap. The Russians spent 2 centuries trying to put them on line and they're still fighting today.

[The Noble Lord]

Great pictures there Persian fan. I've recently been reading "The Great Game" and read quite abit about the Persian attempts to check Russian expansion into the Caucasus. They proved a much harder nut to crack then we here in the West are led to believe. I bet if Persia and the Ottomans could have put their differences aside and joined together, they could have blocked the advance of the Bear into the region.

I read that book just recently, it's by Peter Hopkirk. And it's beautiful and detailed piece of historical evidence when it comes to the "Great game" and that part of the world in early and mid 19th Century.
The truth is that Safavids and Ottomans viewed each other as enemies and it was impossible to check the advance of the Russians, plus Russian empire was in its ascendancy while Safavids and Ottomans were in the state of decline. Then, you have to take into consideration the Afghans, British, Central Asian Khanates and they all hated each other and hoped for the destruction of their enemies.
Any way you look at it, it was impossible to stop the "Bear" advance, and every time British tried to do it they caused great suffering like they did in the siege of herat when to stop Persians who were encouraged by the Russians to conquer the city, priceless Mosques and Palaces form the time of Ghorids and Timurids were destroyed and completely leveled.

Definitely and Supas

Yeah, let's do something. Nice "Persian or Persian-Afghan" mod would be nice.

[AmiR TimuR]

Congrats, Mighty Shah! Any pics? Btw how did you manage not to get in war with the Ottomans? They're not realyy Persia's friend and their small mesopotamian army is aimed at Azerbaïjan. I guess you consuered Russia (wow!) from Georgia & Dagestan right?

I will post photos of my empire soon

Ottomans attacked me and I wanted ceasefire a couple of times, they didnt accept. as a warning, i took armenia and baghdad then ceasefire was accepted and after this event, we never fought again. We have trade agreement even. I sent a gift, etc. and made relations better.

Yea, Russia is over, I conquered Moscow with my camels, haha!

I destroyed georgia and they rebelled 5 times because i forgot to destroy university but now they have 95% Islam religion I didn't touch Dagestan and Crimean Khanate. Islamic Union we have

Also people who want to live medieval times at etw, just play as Safavids and you will feel it.

[Illidan]

so pity that i can`t play as my real life country cuz the mod crashes for me be4 the game starts.
so i am forced to play as russia (the only country i like after persia in the game`s time priod .) georgia and savoy and denmark are my protectors i created a big alliance with following nations:persia-georgia-polandlithuenia-denmark-savoy against ottomans! so the ottomans are destroyed now. i made several wars and then signing peace treatys with ottomans and in every treaty i demanded a region or two and they accepted(cuz i was victorius in most battles and ottomans were attacked from all sides )so i recived the following regions by peace treatys:moldovia-bosnia-serbia-bulgaria-syria and conquered the istanbul and ankara and the rest ottoman regions conquered by either persia or georgia.i will post the pics too

[AmiR TimuR]

so pity that i can`t play as my real life country cuz the mod crashes for me be4 the game starts.
so i am forced to play as russia (the only country i like after persia in the game`s time priod .) georgia and savoy and denmark are my protectors i created a big alliance with following nations:persia-georgia-polandlithuenia-denmark-savoy against ottomans! so the ottomans are destroyed now. i made several wars and then signing peace treatys with ottomans and in every treaty i demanded a region or two and they accepted(cuz i was victorius in most battles and ottomans were attacked from all sides )so i recived the following regions by peace treatys:moldovia-bosnia-serbia-bulgaria-syria and conquered the istanbul and ankara and the rest ottoman regions conquered by either persia or georgia.i will post the pics too

this is like a bug and they give lots of regions at every agreement. it will be corrected at 1.3 patch.

[The Noble Lord]

I will post photos of my empire soon .

Yeah, that would be great.