Of javelins and arrows

[Ecthelion]

Okay, I did javelin in high-school and I can tell you that even with a modern aluminum javelin (800 grams) a good thrower (not Olympic, just enough to qualify for state competitions) can only throw it 150 feet (50 meters). This is of course with little to no accurracy at all. In fact, half the time, the javelins don't even plant, they just kind of slide on the grass!

Of course, the ancient Mediterrean people did not have such good javelins, nor were they as strong or tall (height is a big factor is javelin throwing).

Now with a bow, the story is much different. With a measly 40 lbs bow (ancient bows were probably about that heavy I imagine) an unskilled archer can plant an arrow over 50 meters. He can do it with a decent amount of accuracy (left and right accuracy) too. What's more, unlike with a javelin where one needs a running start, the bow can be used at one's leisure.

So, why was the javelin ever in use when the bow was a much better alternative? I can understand it's use with legionnaires as it was their secondary weapon, but with velites?

I understand that the javelin was a heavier, deadlier projectile, but it is slow as all hell. Even aerodynamically perfect modern javelins cannot match an arrow's speed. And since it is such a big projectile, it is easy to see against the background of the sky. I cannot imagine that it would have been too difficult to dodge a javelin or to knock it out of the air with one's shield. I mean, think about it... how hard is it to catch a spiralled football (the American kind)? Most javelins travel at more or less the same speed as a football thrown with a spiral. And of course, a javelin is bigger. If a person can catch a javelin speed projectile then I can imagine they can knock it out of the air, or at least sidestep it.

Dodging arrows is next to impossible. blocking it with a shield is the only way. Not only is it much faster, but it is also a smaller projectile so it is harder to see against the sky.

[Hoglerdanske]

because a man with a shield has god protection against an arrow but no chance against a javlin!! it's simply the killing power that counts here!

[Lee1026]

I think because they were used in fairly close range. like 20 or so meters. it is a whole lot easier to hand a guy a javalin and tell him to throw it at the enemy then to hand a guy a bow or a sling. because he probably will kill himself with the bow or sling. Also javalins are one handed weapons allowing you to carry a shield. that and a javalin stuck in a shield is a whole lot more cumbersome then a arrow in a shield.

[Petronius]

Because javelins were not used as individual weapons, but in a group of skirmishers. When one has 60-70 Javelins sailing towards his group, we can see the panicky effect that would ensue; even if most of them are blocked, they're likely to cause casualties amoung non-heavy infantry and spread fear.

[Rapax]

You can't dodge a javelin when you're standing in a mass of men. So, the massed use of javelins is gonna hit something as you can't seriously think that everybody can jump to the side in a battle formation. Also velites precisely only had that one job, throw the javelins and then retreat behind the main battle line. Javelins are heavier and have higher penetration than arrows, so they will create mayhem in the enemy ranks as they will get stuck in shields and bodies.

[Nihil]

This has nothing to do with javelins, but Rapax, that sig - Kagemusha, right?

Incidentally, there was a good thread on this very subject (javelins and bows) last week. Go check it out.

[Ecthelion]

Kagemusha... shadow warrior?

Anyway, you all have made some good points about the damage. Well at least I think so. I am still not entirely sure if a javelin would do more damage...

Okay, lets think about this from a physics standpoint.

For any projectile, the force (which is what matters) with which they hit their target is equal to the force that the shooter put into the projectile. When one throws a javelin, he is putting a short burst of force. A bow uses conservation of force. The total amount of force put into an arrow is greater than that put into a javelin. This means that the arrow will actually hit with more force. This is enhanced by the fact that the arrow looses less momentum to air friction.

A man in densely packed formation may not be able to dodge a javelin, but he can certianly knock it away with a blow from his shield. Of course the man next to him may not be too happy about that! LOL

I don't really understand the merits of either weapon type that well. But I think the abandonment of the javelin says something about its uses.

[Turnus]

Originally posted by Ecthelion@Apr 10 2005, 07:37 PM
Kagemusha... shadow warrior?

It's a Kurosawa flick. *tongue*

[rububula]

Actually Ecthelion, it's not the force of the projectile that matters as much as the momentum, and javelins, being heavier, could have more momentum than arrows. It's a question of the weight and speed of the projectile.

Also, most ancient bows just weren't that great. Sure there were some eastern cultures that used bows heavily, but for the most part bows were not a favorite weapon. They would probably be shortbows, which don't have such great range or stopping power, and would not necessarily be of great quality.

[Rapax]

Originally posted by Ecthelion@Apr 11 2005, 01:37 AM
For any projectile, the force (which is what matters) with which they hit their target is equal to the force that the shooter put into the projectile. When one throws a javelin, he is putting a short burst of force. A bow uses conservation of force. The total amount of force put into an arrow is greater than that put into a javelin. This means that the arrow will actually hit with more force. This is enhanced by the fact that the arrow looses less momentum to air friction.

No matter if that arrow has more power or momentum than a javelin, it is still just an arrow with limited piercing capabilities. As rubi said, the bows of that time weren't that spectacular. A javelin that goes up and then gains momentum by going down will crush hard into you, well, either you or your shield. That means that either you or your shield are out of the game. Without a shield your chances in a fight are not that good. The romans knew why they started a battle off by throwing javelins, to make shields useless and to wreak havoc in the enemy formation.

And yes, it's Kagemusha. Great movie.

[Lee1026]

I'm not too sure by a lot of the stuff you guys said here. History is something I'm not good at. But physics is.

"A javelin that goes up and then gains momentum by going down will crush hard into you"
Energy have to be conserved. which of course means that by making something go in a parabola you will not make it go any faster then just throwing the thing directed toward your target.

"That means that either you or your shield are out of the game"
Or maybe the javalin hits and I just pulled it out of shield? or maybe it just glanced off? maybe I am capable of ignoring it? and by the way the same can be said of arrows as well.

"Actually Ecthelion, it's not the force of the projectile that matters as much as the momentum, and javelins, being heavier, could have more momentum than arrows. It's a question of the weight and speed of the projectile."
P = MV. Arrows mean be a whole lot lighter, but they also move a whole lot faster. Also the momentum does not mean everything. otherwise a javalin would be more damaging then a bullet. (which have usually just 1000 gram * m/s, compared to javalins which should have 5000 gram * m/s)

how did I get those? a bullet is 1 gram (roughly) and moves and 1000 meters per second (mach 3) . that javalin is 800 grams and moves at 5 meters per second (10 miles per hour) I have heard of people that can run faster then that....

[Turnus]

Originally posted by lee1026@Apr 10 2005, 09:31 PM
"That means that either you or your shield are out of the game"
Or maybe the javalin hits and I just pulled it out of shield? or maybe it just glanced off? maybe I am capable of ignoring it? and by the way the same can be said of arrows as well.

One of the advantages of the pilum (and later, the angon), was that even if it did not hit a man, it could stick in his shield (and could not be removed), effectively putting him out of action (as he would either have to leave the battlefield to refit himself, or fight at a severe disadvantage). If the javelins missed and were lodged in the earth, they would help to spread out the enemy's formation (and of course their discharge would create general mayhem).

I'm not sure whether pre-pilum javelins could be dislodged from a shield with ease.

[HorseArcher]

Have any of you been hit by a javelin? I had similar, not javelin, but we used to throw long sticks (with no sharp head on it) at each other, and i have to tell you, that thing hurts as hell, even if a kid throws it with barely any power. Try getting hit by with one, that spins also (throw it so when release it spin it up, so it acts like a drillhead)

Trust me, if you get 20 caveman armed with long sticks (javelin) and if they can put down a mammoth with those things, that must mean something, don't you think?

[Ecthelion]

Thanks Lee for correcting people's physics. I guess some people are just too humanities oriented. Some practical science is important in any field.

Anyway, I think that as projectiles, arrows are much more efficient. Were this to not be the case, they would not have survived so long while the javelin did not live long after the Classical period. There's a reason why the pilum was eventually abandoned.

The advantage that the javelin had over the bow was its ease of use and production. Believe it or not, a bow is actually very difficult to make right. Arrows are hard too. Fletchers were very important men in Medieval and Classical societies. Whereas with a javelin, all one needed was a stick of wood and a sharp metal point. They could be make quickly and they can also be collected after the battle and reused. Arrows are one time shots (no pun intended).

During the Classical period, Western archers were simply not that great. The bows were all simple bows with no recurve or composition; shooting techniques were still quite primitive. Despite all these short comings, the bow still has the upper hand.

Javelins offered an easy alternative, so they were used until the bow became easily accessible. Or perhaps it was the increase in armor that made javelins obselete?

[dirty dan]

Well its kind of simple
Bows just got better and better and could do almost the same as javalins at a longer range meaning less casualtys. And a newer fighting style was coming out. Masses of horses, and i bet it made it alot harder to hit there target. And when the people on horses have bows.... well u get my picture, mass slaughter.

[Rapax]

Originally posted by lee1026@Apr 11 2005, 03:31 AM

"A javelin that goes up and then gains momentum by going down will crush hard into you"
Energy have to be conserved. which of course means that by making something go in a parabola you will not make it go any faster then just throwing the thing directed toward your target.

It flies farther than when you throw it straight, that simple. Besides, if the arrow comes from above, gravity will work with me instead of against me.

"That means that either you or your shield are out of the game"
Or maybe the javalin hits and I just pulled it out of shield? or maybe it just glanced off? maybe I am capable of ignoring it?

Roman pila were made specificially so you could not pull them out of your shield, at least not easily. So short of putting your shield on the ground and pulling heavily on the javelin with two hands, you have to live with it sticking in your shield. Sure, it may just glance off, but that is not the point when we are talking about what made a javelin effective. And I don't think you can ignore it when it sticks in either you or your shield.

and by the way the same can be said of arrows as well.

The size difference between an arrow and a javelin is a mystery to you, isn't it?

P = MV. Arrows mean be a whole lot lighter, but they also move a whole lot faster. Also the momentum does not mean everything. otherwise a javalin would be more damaging then a bullet. (which have usually just 1000 gram * m/s, compared to javalins which should have 5000 gram * m/s)

how did I get those? a bullet is* 1 gram (roughly) and moves and 1000 meters per second (mach 3) . that javalin is 800 grams and moves at 5 meters per second (10 miles per hour) I have heard of people that can run faster then that....

Fascinating, but a javelin, when it hits an unprotected target, will still creater a bigger wound than e.g. a 9mm Para round. Not to mention that you have a large stick in you that will jerk around through movement and increase the wound.

[Shawkhan]

...One fact about javelins so far unnoted is that they were spin stabilized. The thrower would use a strip of material wound about the shaft of the javelin and held between the fingers to give a twist to the javelin as it was released(much like a child's top is spun)thus making it much more accurate and effective than modern javelins used in sporting competitions.
...

[Lee1026]

"It flies farther than when you throw it straight, that simple. Besides, if the arrow comes from above, gravity will work with me instead of against me."

while I have no doubt it will fly further, but the damage is based upon how powerful the impact is. and that is dependent solely on the speed and of course gravity works far better for arrows to take advantage of since they get to pick where they shoot from (due to longer range)

"Fascinating, but a javelin, when it hits an unprotected target, will still creater a bigger wound than e.g. a 9mm Para round. Not to mention that you have a large stick in you that will jerk around through movement and increase the wound."
you get a javalin, I get a gun. Let's see who dies first.

"Roman pila were made specificially so you could not pull them out of your shield, at least not easily. So short of putting your shield on the ground and pulling heavily on the javelin with two hands, you have to live with it sticking in your shield. Sure, it may just glance off, but that is not the point when we are talking about what made a javelin effective. And I don't think you can ignore it when it sticks in either you or your shield."
pikemen formation were designed so that most missile fire wil glance off of the pikes. and also making that pila go though my shield is no easy business. get a ply wood board. throw javalins at it. is it easily pulled off? yes. to make it impossible to pull off you have to make the thing go though my shield, which is a not easy thing to do. (don't believe me? try punching holes in plywood boards.)

[Rapax]

you get a javalin, I get a gun. Let's see who dies first.

Totally beside the point, but at least you got to reply something. Well done. :rolleyes

get a ply wood board. throw javalins at it. is it easily pulled off? yes. to make it impossible to pull off you have to make the thing go though my shield, which is a not easy thing to do. (don't believe me? try punching holes in plywood boards.)

You're debating against roman military tactics, so I don't really care for your personal opinion on how easy it is to pull things from anywhere. I'm sure you're great with physics but you seem to lack the knowledge on the actual usage of said javelins in ancient times.

[Ecthelion]

People like to take the science out of history. The same rules that govern the universe now, apply then.

If you find it hard to put a javelin through a wooden board (which you should, thrust me, it's hard and I do have training&#33 The the Romans did too! I doubt if the average Roman soldier is stronger than me. Considering their level of nutrition back then and the fact that the average Roman wasn't terribly tall, I think most atheletic college males can beat or at least equal a Roman in terms of strength.

Evaluating historical events by using modern reenactment is actually the latest trend in historical studies. We can read all the ancient texts we would like. But until try to replicate the situation, nothing can be for certain.

Oh hey and Rapax, you got that movie on file, could you possibly send me a copy online?