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Thread: DHRR v0.8 Previews

  1. #81
    konny's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Preview dHRR 0.8 The Pope and his Church

    Sancta Romana Ecclesia

    In dHRR 0.7 it is possible to grant family members and priests with bishops’ titles. Because of the marriage issue, and because of the family tree usually not being large enough to have some family members deliberately unmarried, the important function of prince-bishops mostly went unused in game. Therefore we have changed this system a bit for dHRR 0.8:

    Family members will no longer be able to acquire clerical titles. In return you will be able to recruit generals to make them bishops. The advantage would be that recruited general usually are always unmarried, that is unless they are adopted into family tree or forced to marry one of your princesses. Priests too can become bishops as usual. This also allowed simplifying the mechanism of appointment a little: Bishops will now no longer be appointed by clicking on the right character, but they are elected by the chapter, while the king (what would be you or the AI, which as usual doesn’t know anything about it) has the choice to give or give not them a fief.

    When there is a vacant see in any of your dioceses, you would have a bishop elected by recruiting the kind of character you wish to be the next bishop. What is important is that bishops need to be worldwide unique. That is, different to worldly titles in dHRR 0.8, you cannot have a bishop elected when there is someone else of another faction out there already holding this title.


    In this example we want to ‘make’ a new Patriarch of Grado in Venice. Because we don’t want to give him the laguna as a fiefdom we recruit a priest.

    The next turn the priest has been recruited and he is already holding the title of a Patriarch of Grado; and because it had been rather lonely in the College of Cardinals, he has become a cardinal as well.


    It also would have been possible to make him a prince-bishop. In this case you would have recruited a general.

    The next turn he would have been recruited and would also hold the bishop’s title.

    As prince-bishop he would have the same local bonus as the respective feudal lord in this province (+1 Defence, +5% Tax, +1 Law, 25% Discount on Recruitment). Other advantages of prince-bishops would be that they are usually very loyal, that they don’t have children and that way cannot bequeath their titles, and that they cannot accumulate several of these titles by inheritance. The downside would be that they cannot become cardinals, so not Pope, and even more that them holding the clerical titles prevent your priests from acquiring them and that way makes it harder for your priests to become cardinals. Needless to say that the Pope must not be happy that you using ‘his’ bishops to have your fiefdoms run and your army filled with knights…

    Creating either a priest-bishop or a prince-bishop will be possible in all settlements that have a diocese, what will be the majority in dHRR 0.8. There are some in which you do not have a choice and where the local bishop will always be a general because he is fulfilling important worldly tasks. This would be, for example, in Durham, Köln, Mainz, Trier and Aquileia. In these towns the election of bishops is controlled by the script, and everyone the bishop dies a new one is spawned for the faction that holds the town.


    Patrimonium Sancti Petri


    The Papal States are run by the Curia of the Cardinals. But the cardinals in M2TW are those men: all priests and most of them even members of other factions. They cannot help the Pope in running his lands.


    Therefore we have added additional cardinals by making the prince bishops of the Papal States members of the Curia. They are not treated as cardinals by the game; this means they cannot become Pope themselves. But they can hold the Curia offices.

    Some of these offices can also be held by priests, so the true cardinals. This here, the Cardinal Dean of the College, can in fact only be held by a priest.

    In summa the Pope can appoint these officers of the Curia:

    Cancellarius Apostolicus (Chancellor)
    Camerarius Domini Papae (Chamberlain)
    Paenitentiarius Major (High Judge)
    Decanus Sacri Collegii (Dean)
    Praefectus Bibliotecae Apostolica (Librarian)

    Additionally he can also appoint a Custodus for the Holy Land, provided Jerusalem is held by a Catholic faction.

    The requirement for holding any of the above offices would be to hold a clerical title (i.e. be a bishop). But usually the Pope would not hold enough settlements to have dioceses for all these bishops needed. Well, he simply doesn’t have to: The Pope, and only him, can appoint bishops for cities he does not own!


    It works this way: The Pope recruits a bishop or a priest.

    Sends this man to a city where a diocese is vacant, regardless who holds this town.

    And the next turn this character has acquired the local clerical title.

    After that he would be eligible for a Curia Office.

    The only requirement would be that the holder of the town in question has not appointed a bishop by himself. The Papal States acquiring a foreign bishop’s title that way also follows that the owner now can no longer appoint a bishop of his faction. This makes it more difficult for other factions to size control of the College of Cardinals and to have their own candidates be elected Pope.


    You might have noticed on the above screenshots that the Papal States now start in the possession of Florence and Pisa. And that there is a Papal princess, even though this would be impossible because the Papal States do not have a family tree. The lady in question is her:

    Matilda di Canossa, Marchesa di Toscana and Duchessa di Spoleto, one of the most faithful counsellors of Pope Gregory and “his best general”. Unfortunately we have so far not found a way to make her a general without allowing the name ‘Matilda’ as male name for the Papal States, and that way a possible name of a Pope. So for now, she is “his best diplomat”. You can marry Matilda to other factions’ heirs, but to do so you either have her talk with the faction question herself or have a foreign diplomat have to talk to her. It does not work on negotiations between diplomats and settlements or diplomats and diplomats.

    Originally Matilda was intended to become Marescallus Militiae, the Papal Marshall. This office is of course not part of the Curia offices – even though Medieval bishops had no problem with using the mace in service of their lord (not a sword because they were not allowed to cause bloodshed by their hands). This office is now controlled by the script in the way that anytime the holder is missing a new one will be spawned for the Papal States.
    Last edited by konny; June 08, 2009 at 03:25 PM.

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  2. #82

    Default Re: Preview dHRR 0.8 The Pope and his Church

    The details and intricateness of the mod just gets better with each preview. Keep up the great work!

  3. #83

    Default Re: Preview dHRR 0.8 The Pope and his Church

    Another very well devised preview! Really makes me want more. It's these seemingly minor things that bring so much additional fun. Great work, guys!

    Quote Originally Posted by konny View Post
    It does not work on negotiations between diplomats and settlements or diplomats and diplomats.
    I like the whole Mathilde thing, but this is really great. So much realism.

  4. #84

    Default Re: Preview dHRR 0.8 The Pope and his Church

    Nice! Good Work here ! Keep it up!

  5. #85
    EarendilElenthol's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Preview dHRR 0.8 The Pope and his Church

    Dear me, your mod gets more detailed and detailed, keep up the good work!

  6. #86

  7. #87
    Salvo's Avatar Maréchal de l'Empire
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    Default Re: Preview dHRR 0.8 The Pope and his Church

    This mod should be called "Realism Mod".
    Amiazing job-REP

  8. #88

    Default Re: Preview dHRR 0.8 The Pope and his Church

    amazing

  9. #89
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: Preview dHRR 0.8 The Pope and his Church

    Great is a small word!!!
    TGC in order to continue its development seak one or more desicated scripters to put our campaign scripts mess to an order plus to create new events and create the finall missing factions recruitment system. In return TGC will give permision to those that will help to use its material stepe by step. The result will be a fully released TGC plus many mods that will benefit TGC's material.
    Despite the mod is dead does not mean that anyone can use its material
    read this to avoid misunderstandings.

    IWTE tool master and world txt one like this, needed inorder to release TGC 1.0 official to help TWC to survive.
    Adding MARKA HORSES in your mod and create new varietions of them. Tutorial RESTORED.


  10. #90

    Default Re: Preview dHRR 0.8 Hereditary Titles

    other occasions feudal lords refused to join the royal army because they didn't wanted to leave their estates.
    Will this be also some kind of trait? I would like it if some characters who govern a city for a while get a trait like "don't want to leave his province" (movement -100%). Will you add something like this?

  11. #91
    konny's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Preview dHRR 0.8 Hereditary Titles

    Not for this built, but things like that are planned for the future, for example traits like "Needs to return to his lands" or "Is feuding".

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  12. #92

    Default Re: Preview dHRR 0.8 Hereditary Titles

    Cool, thank you

  13. #93

    Default Re: Preview dHRR 0.8 The Pope and his Church

    Will there be still some titels you can give somebody by clicking on him like in 0.7?

    Cancellarius Apostolicus (Chancellor)
    Camerarius Domini Papae (Chamberlain)
    Paenitentiarius Major (High Judge)
    Decanus Sacri Collegii (Dean)
    Praefectus Bibliotecae Apostolica (Librarian)
    Will this titels be given automaticly to characters of the papal staates?

  14. #94
    konny's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Preview dHRR 0.8 The Pope and his Church

    This depends very much on how this title would have been handled historically:

    - With feudal titles you can send a character of your choice to the respective settlement to acquire it. After that the title becomes hereditary until the family of this holder dies out.

    - Offices are sometimes hereditary too, sometimes tied to certain titles. Some are transferable, others are held by livelong appointement (i.e. not transferable).

    - These curia offices are none-transferable because that would be the only way to ensure it is always held by a character with a bishop's title by not using the script but EDA and EDCT (because of the huge number of titles added I want to keep the title management away from the script as much as possible; when you hit "end turn" you will know why).

    - Clerical titles are given automatically to the priests or recruited generals that are "elected" (i.e. created) in the respective settlement. Because these titles are not meant to be held by family members, there would be no reason to add a complex mechanism of picking a character. That is unless someone wishes to roleplay his priests too, of course....

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  15. #95

    Default Re: Preview dHRR 0.8 The Pope and his Church

    And what is with the title of the chancellor?

  16. #96
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    Default Preview dHRR 0.8: Serenissima Repubblica di San Marco

    Serenissima Repubblica di San Marco

    Venice is different, and playing with Venice should be different too. Because different to the feudal states around, Venice is a merchants’ republic. That way, family members from Venice cannot acquire feudal titles, but they can acquire special offices in the administration of the city and the colonies.



    These offices will form some kind of “cursus honorum” in dHRR 0.8, similar to that of the Roman Republic. Historically, the Venetians had age requirements as well as the regulation that holding a higher office required to have proven yourself in a lesser one before, but things weren’t handled that strict in the Middle Ages. In dHRR 0.8 family members from Venice can acquire these offices:

    A noble citizen who is at least 25 years old can be elected Podestà. As Podestà he would be governing one of the lesser settlements in the possession of the Republic. Podestàs from Venice had also often been used as Imperial governors in Italy.

    Having reached the age of 30, and proven himself a capable Podestà, this patrician can be elected Castellano. As Castellano he would be responsible for a 'castellany', a larger district centred on a castle, where he would be holding supreme military and administrative power. This office was also frequently held by foreign noblemen.

    Being a Castellano he would have achieved anything he could without entering the Maggior Consiglio, the High Council. The Maggior Consiglio elected the magistrates. Members of an old patrician family (Casa Vecchia) usually became members with the age of 20. Members of other families (Casa Nuova) needed 'good shoes and the right attitude' to be admitted. Well, Venice was a republic, not a democracy.

    As a member of the Council he would be eligible for the office of Magistrato, one of the many administrative magistrates that run the Republic. The minimum age would be 35.

    From the many offices that the magistrates held we have splitted off nine, three urban and six colonial. These can be appointed separately by the player:

    Urban offices:
    The president of the Magistrato alla Milizia, the high command of Venetian military.
    The Camerlenghi de Comùn, the chamberlain of the Republican possesions.
    The Avogador de Comùn, the highest attorney of the Republic.

    Colonial offices:
    The Provveditore Generale da Màr, the supreme governor of the maritime and overseas possessions of the Republic, the Stato da Màr.
    The Provveditore Generale del Friuli, the supreme governor of the Italian possessions of the Republic adjecting the Adriatic.
    The Provveditore Generale della Morea, the supreme governor of the Greek possessions of the Republic.
    The Provveditore Generale di Dalmazia, the supreme governor of the Adriatic possessions of the Republic.
    The Provveditore Generale di Terraferma, the supreme governor of the Italian hinterland possessions of the Republic.
    The Bailo, the supreme Venetian governor in Constantinopolis.
    The colonial offices are only available when at least one of the cities belonging to the respective district is held by Venice and a Magistrato is present.

    For Magistratos it is important to have held as many offices as possible of these for a term. A term in office is usually five turns, while two urban offices and two colonial offices cannot be held at a time (an urban and a colonial office can be held together).

    It is also possible to have these offices held by a lower or higher ranking family member, or by a Magistrato whose term has expired. This character will then have the full functional bonus, but will not profit personally from it.

    A character that has proven him a worthy Magistrato, and has reached the age of 40, can be elected into the “Council of the Forty”, the Quarantia. This was the supreme court of the Republic. For the common patrician, being a member of the Quarantia would be the final point of his career, because above them is only the Minor Consiglio, the true government of Venice, comparable to the Signoria of other Italian towns.



    The Minor Consiglio is composed of the Doge, a rather toothless faction leader, his highest councillor, the Consigliere Ducale (faction heir), and the not more than three characters that had been elected Procuratore di San Marco. Because the office of Procuratore di San Marco is held by livelong appointment, the Doge and his Consigliere can hold this too, reducing the Minor Consiglio to three family members.


    To be elected will not be so difficult, but also not automatically. Besides having reached the right age the candidate needs to make “points” with the members of the High Council who are electing the Magistrates. “Points” can be acquired in different ways, for example by proven himself good in the office he is currently holding.

    Of course, he might have also failed in the task he was asked to fulfil. In this case he would actually lose points. The pedantic advocates of a merchants’ republic might have different ideas than the feudal lords around of what was a “good conduct” and what “bad”. Acts of insane bravery are not appreciated, such as attacking the enemy against serious odds and winning a heroic victory by losing more than half of the army. Wasting resources is also not appreciated, so don’t send a full stack of expensive mercenaries to fight down a handful of peasant rebels. The councillors are the same nitpicking when it comes to judge on the conduct of a governor.

    Another way would be ‘networking’.

    The higher the own ranking would be the more important people a character would know. This might prove very helpful when working on ones own career.

    And in fact not just the own career but also that of the sons. When daddy is a Doge even the most incompetent character should make it to Magistrato.


    Emperor Alexios and the Venetians

    In 1080 Venice is allied with Byzantium and both are at war with Sicily. The Emperor is in desperate need of help, and would do close to anything to have at least someone taking care of the Sicilian fleet. And what kind of merchants would the Venetians have been had they not tried to make profit out of it….

    When Venice actually attacks the Sicilians, be it on land or on sea, Alexios is willing to grant important privileges.

    These will not give much money instantly but will have a severe impact when in effect for longer: Each turn the privileges are in effect the king’s purse of Venice will rise by 50fl and that of Byzantium will drop by the same amount (yes, this makes +5,000 here and -5,000 there after 100 turns!).

    This goes on as long as the alliance between Venice and Byzantium is active, or until Byzantium makes peace with Sicily provided it is held by the AI.

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  17. #97
    konny's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Preview dHRR 0.8 The Pope and his Church

    Quote Originally Posted by Isildor View Post
    And what is with the title of the chancellor?
    This office was usually not held by a member of the high nobility (=family member), but by a cleric. For England and France we have implemented a spawned cleric for this office. In Venice it is a spawned character too (Cancellier Grando), but this is not a cleric but a non-noble citizen. In all occasions this office was usually held by livelong appointement (in England in fact sold).

    For the Papal States this is a Curia office. Sicily works a bit different, using Emirs for all kind of Court Offices, the Norman nobility was strictly excluded. In Poland we are certain that a Grand Chancellor had not existed at this time. In the German states this office will be held by a prince bishop (so, you need to make one prior). The other Catholic factions are so far not decided.

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  18. #98

    Default Re: Preview dHRR 0.8: Serenissima Repubblica di San Marco

    Couple questions

    1) does venice have to attack Sicily to enact the privalge

    2) will you tigger some way for an ai byzantium to stop the alliance because of the privalge

    3) If Venice makes a cease-fire with Sicily does the rights stop

  19. #99
    konny's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Preview dHRR 0.8: Serenissima Repubblica di San Marco

    Quote Originally Posted by Eragon12267 View Post
    1) does venice have to attack Sicily to enact the privalge
    Yes

    2) will you tigger some way for an ai byzantium to stop the alliance because of the privalge
    Yes (making peace with Sicily triggers it)

    If Venice makes a cease-fire with Sicily does the rights stop
    No

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  20. #100

    Default Re: Preview dHRR 0.8: Serenissima Repubblica di San Marco

    Wait, lemme get this straight. Byzantium making peace with Sicily triggers the end of the alliance with venice?

    If Sicily is destroyed what happens?

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