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Thread: DHRR v0.8 Previews

  1. #1
    konny's Avatar Artifex
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    Default DHRR v0.8 Previews

    Introduction



    Assigning clerical and worldly titles as well as offices to your family members is a major feature of dHRR. In 0.8 this will be seriously expanded and also changed in a major aspect: You will be able to assign these titles in nearly all provinces on the map, and they will become hereditary.

    When you enter the world of dHRR you are not to act as Augustus or Napoleon, appointing and dismissing governors and generals at your liking. You are a medieval king who has to act within the boundaries of not only chivalry but also feudalism. Your “governors and generals” are your vassals, and as such they have certain rights – in particular the right to consider the titles (and in some occasions even the offices) you had granted them during their live as their reward for faithful service and so part of their property that they can bequeath to whom ever they like.


    To inherit a title

    When you start the game most of the titles proper for your starting provinces will already be held by the historical holders of the year 1080. These characters will also be attached to your family tree to allow for succession, even when their historical counterparts had not been related with the king.

    As time goes by they will grow older and pass away of age or some might be killed in your service or taken by the plague. Whenever that happens to the holder of a title and he has a natural heir the title would automatically pass to this character, with no chance for you, the king, to intercept and give this land to someone whom you might like more.

    This is Fulk d’Anjou, called “le Réchin”, the troublemaker. He is holding the title of a Comes Andegavensis, the Count of Anjou.




    This is Fulk’s family. His son-in-law to the left, the Count of Auvergne, has nothing to do with Fulk’s Anjou possessions. He cannot inherit the title. Fulk’s three sons, Gieffroy, Robin and Poncet can. And in fact, a few years later Fulk died and the title is inherited by his son Gieffroy:



    He and his two brothers are what we call “heir of the first grade”. Whenever there is a son of a former holder (and this son is of age) he will be picked first when it comes to inherit a title.




    You might have noticed that both Fulk and Gieffroy had the trait “House of Anjou”. This trait is always passed from the holder of a title to his sons. These in return pass this trait to all their sons and so on, even when they do not hold the respective title themselves. These members of a “House” form the “heirs of the second grade”. Whenever there is no first grade heir, no living son of a (any!) former holder, one of the other members of the respective House will be picked to inherit the title.



    Before he inherited the title of a Count of Anjou Gieffroy was able to acquire the title of a Duke of Bretagne. That way Gieffroy is member of two Houses, that of Anjou and that of Bretagne (in case of the later he is in fact the founder of the first House of Bretagne). Neither his father nor his brothers are members of the House of Bretagne. That way they cannot inherit this title, only Gieffroy’s sons could, provided he would finally sire any. When he died childless the title Duke of Bretagne would be vacant and fall back to the crown to be created anew, while the County of Anjou could be inherited by either Robin or Poncet, or any of their sons.


    To acquire a title

    Titles may become vacant because the holding House had died out; or they would be created the first time when you conquer a new province. In the case of conquest you would be able to create the respective title within your faction even when the former owner had already done so. Titles are unique only within a faction.

    Whenever you wish to create a title for the above reasons you simply send a character that is not already holding any title into the respective town and leave him there for two turns. Unfortunately we had to change the click-on-character mechanism, because of the sheer number of the titles planned the script would had become way to large. Both requirements (not holding a title and the two turns) are meant to prevent from a single character who is conquering several towns to instantly acquire all the respective titles – irrevocably and hereditary!

    When a character has successfully acquired a title he will found a new “House of…” and his heirs can inherit this title.


    To hold a title


    Each title gives the holder a fixed bonus of +1 Command, +1 Authority, and +1 Popularity. Because a character that already holds a title must not be necessarily eager to please his king to receive one, he also gets a -1 Loyalty. A character can only acquire a title when he does not hold any, what follows that he can only acquire a maximum of one title in his live – but he can inherit as many as the engine allows (the hardcoded limit for ancillaries is 8). That way he can accumulate up to +8 Command by his titles, but also -8 Loyalty.


    Besides this fixed bonus each title also gives a local bonus of +1 Defence, +5% Tax, 25% Discount on recruitment. This bonus is only given when the holder is in his county (technically he needs to end the turn within the province and gets the bonus the next turn). And because he is considered to be away from his king, he gets another -1 Loyalty as long as he stays there.

    You see that it is really desirable for your kingdom to have the correct feudal vassal sitting in each of your towns. Their boni earns your treasury cash money and even more important is their ability to raise units on discount costs (expect recruitment costs for feudal units to much higher in dHRR 0.8). But having a single character holding several titles is nothing you want to happen. This is not only because of his seriously reduced loyalty but also because he can only receive one local bonus at a time. The boni for the towns of his other titles go wasted.


    Progress and special rules

    We have now implemented this system of titles for France, including the rebel provinces. We certainly take account of the special situation with some titles, so the rule “One Province, One Title” does not apply everywhere. Here are a few example of the long list of exceptions:

    The Count of Toulouse also holds the titles of a Duke of Narbonne and Margrave of Provence. So he is able to get his local bonus in Languedoc and Provence too. Orleans is both: the County of Blois as well as part of the French Royal Territory. That way there are three authorities who can get a local bonus in this province, the Count of Blois, the King and his chancellor (what is a first glimpse on how offices will work in dHRR 0.8). Brest on the other hand does not belong to any title to show the chaotic situation in medieval Bretagne. The Duke of Aquitaine again will be one of the most powerful feudal lords in France and his faction must not even hold all the provinces he claims supremacy in to benefit from them. Etc.


    Limitations

    Like all modding projects, also this one has to deal with some limitations of the engine. The one thing is the limit of eight ancillaries per character. But apart from Crusades, I have hardly seen a character acquiring more than three “normal” ancillaries, so up to five titles per characters should be no problem – and that’s really a lot considering that a character can acquire a maximum of one and would need to inherit all others.

    Another issue would be the order in which the engine picks heirs when there is more than one heir of the first grade. In the above example it had done right by passing the title Count of Anjou to the last count’s eldest son. But there is no guarantee that the engine always does so.

    In this example the game seemed to have suspected a conflict between Etienne de Blois and his eldest son, Guillaume, because the title was inherited by his younger brother Raymond. Even Etienne’s two brothers, Odo and Hugues would have qualified as “heirs of the first grade” because the title was already held by their common father, Thiebault. Because Raymond is the youngest of the de Blois we can expect him to outlive the other three and so reducing their lineage to a secondary (they and their descendants would still be members of the “House of Blois”, so still possible heirs).


    EDIT 9th January 2010:
    Titles so far implemented

    worldly titles, including faction leader- and crusader titles



    clerical titles (Catholic dioceses); missing the Bishop of Paris and the Bishop of London who are spawned chancellors for France and England and the Bishop of Durham who also is a spawned general. Other spawned characters, but displayed on this map, are the Archbishops of Cologne, Trier and Mainz and the Patriarch of Aquileia.
    Last edited by konny; January 09, 2010 at 07:33 AM.

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    Cooltosha's Avatar Taihō no heishi
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    Default Re: Preview dHRR 0.8 Hereditary Titles

    If this is applied to dHRR, then the Reich can never be unified. Just imagine the micromanagment of each single county and city and castle within the Reich.

    Well done, feudalism at its best and its worst.

    +rep for this............really bring the medieval times alive.
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  3. #3
    konny's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Preview dHRR 0.8 Hereditary Titles

    Quote Originally Posted by Cooltosha View Post
    Just imagine the micromanagment of each single county and city and castle within the Reich.
    This is taken into account: The holders of titles do not get a penalty when they govern a city different to the designation of their title. So, when a player (and much more important: the AI) decides that this is beyond his preferences in roleplaying he might ignore the titles of his characters and use them as usual.

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    pchalk's Avatar Baitai kihei
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    Default Re: Preview dHRR 0.8 Hereditary Titles



    COOL!!!!!!

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    wolfen_84's Avatar Murakawa
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    Default Re: Preview dHRR 0.8 Hereditary Titles

    This is great! my gratitude! i cannot wait to play it!!!

  6. #6
    danova's Avatar Ronin
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    Default Re: Preview dHRR 0.8 Hereditary Titles

    Good job! I like a small details!
    .

  7. #7
    ★Bandiera Rossa☭'s Avatar The Red Menace
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    Default Re: Preview dHRR 0.8 Hereditary Titles

    Awesome. Plus rep.
    One word to describe myself? Ostrobogulous.

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    mattgonzo's Avatar Yoshihara
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    Default Re: Preview dHRR 0.8 Hereditary Titles

    nice work man +rep
    oh and is there already a release date?
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    konny's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Preview dHRR 0.8 Hereditary Titles

    Quote Originally Posted by mattgonzo View Post
    oh and is there already a release date?
    The release date is:
















































    .....When it's finished

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    mattgonzo's Avatar Yoshihara
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    Default Re: Preview dHRR 0.8 Hereditary Titles

    so you can't give me any release date yet?
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    konny's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Preview dHRR 0.8 Hereditary Titles

    No, certainly not.

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    eatme's Avatar Chugen
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    Default Re: Preview dHRR 0.8 Hereditary Titles

    Great upcoming features! Sounds a little complex to play along but very interesting.
    Will there be any blood traits features for the houses, that could be passed down like a "house of" trait ?
    And how is the feature of acquiring new generals gonna feat into this ? According to the vanilla mechanics, if a new general is accepted into ruling class then he automatically should become a part of the house he is taken into, whatever his predefined traits are ?

  13. #13
    konny's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Preview dHRR 0.8 Hereditary Titles

    Quote Originally Posted by eatme View Post
    Sounds a little complex to play along but very interesting.
    Not really, most of it is done automaticaly by the game. You only have to act when a title is vacant for any reason.

    You get the maximum out of this system when you have your feudal lords sitting on their estates. But you won't be able to do so all the time because the same men form the backbone of your army.

    This is exactly the dilemma feudalism had to face. For example during the crusades the majority of the European feudal lords had been away from their lands for years; this often with problematic consequences at home. Holders of several titles might have held rights in provinces they had never visited all their life. In other occasions feudal lords refused to join the royal army because they didn't wanted to leave their estates.

    You see that the practical problems that you'll face in game with this system are historical and intended.

    Will there be any blood traits features for the houses, that could be passed down like a "house of" trait ?
    You mean something like "insane due to bad genetic pool"?

    No, personal character traits will not be passed with the House traits because these only indicate legal rights on a certain title. Usualy these rights are passed by inheritance, but there are also special cases in which the next holder must not be related with the former; for example a "Royal Duchy" that is always held by the faction heir, or a feudal title that is tied to an office.

    And how is the feature of acquiring new generals gonna feat into this ? According to the vanilla mechanics, if a new general is accepted into ruling class then he automatically should become a part of the house he is taken into, whatever his predefined traits are ?
    This is taken care of:

    Suitors offered for marriage might be (but will not always) assigned to one of your already existing houses. This is also needed because the engine prefers to give you girls only when you already have a plenty of FM; in this case hereditary succession would have become pointless.

    Candidates offered for adoption are considered illegitimate sons of their fathers. They are excluded from succession of the first grade, but can inherit when the father has no real son of age. The most prominent of these "bastard-heirs" in our time frame would be William the Conqueror as illegitimate successor of the title "Duke of Normandy".

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    eatme's Avatar Chugen
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    Default Re: Preview dHRR 0.8 Hereditary Titles

    Thanks for detailed reply.

    I see what you mean. The purpose of such additions is kinda cool, at the same time reflecting some historical accuracy and also making gameplay less linear. It is realistic trade off, that when the realm is at war and feudal armies mobilized, then money making slows down, and v-v.

    Quote Originally Posted by konny View Post
    Suitors offered for marriage might be (but will not always) assigned to one of your already existing houses.
    It aint only about the marriage suitors. I mean what of random candidates to the ruling class, when the game tends to correlate number of provinces and generals. It tends to pack them as adoptions of the ruler or the heir not other members of ruling class if any. So the family tree becomes kinda skewed, and the idea of hereditary succession. On the top tiers there are very few branches, then it breaks down some. Such a picture usually exists some amout of time from beginning into the game. To make more historically accurate and nonbiased I guess you may either make the game start with extended family tree, where depending on number of provinces, there re several title owners stemming from the ruler. Or is there another way to control the process.

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    konny's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Preview dHRR 0.8 Hereditary Titles

    Quote Originally Posted by eatme View Post
    It aint only about the marriage suitors. I mean what of random candidates to the ruling class, when the game tends to correlate number of provinces and generals.
    That would be the "candidates offered for adoption" I had mentioned in the above posting. They will be members of the House they had been adopted into but could not inherit before the true sons of their father.

    To make more historically accurate and nonbiased I guess you may either make the game start with extended family tree, where depending on number of provinces, there re several title owners stemming from the ruler. Or is there another way to control the process.
    Family trees will in fact be much larger in dHRR 0.8. Whenever we think we could verfiy a historical holder of a title for the year 1080 this one will be placed on the map and attached to the tree. When we know anything about chlidren that were born to him before 1080 these will already be attached to the family tree.

    Unless you rush across the map and conquer some dozend settlements within one generation you would hardly be offered any adoptions.

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    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Dομέστικοc
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    Default Re: Preview dHRR 0.8 Hereditary Titles

    Exelent and most of all unique work!!!+rep
    Freedom of Faith in Islam.

    Ας εχουν λοιπον, την πληρη και απολυτη ασφαλεια ,οσον αφορα τη ζωη τους ,τους ναους τους , τις πεποιθησεις τους και ολους τους προς προσκυνηση τοπους που κατεχουν τωρα εντος και εκτος της πολης. Οι υπολοιποι χριστιανοι θα ερχονται ως απλοι προσκυνητες και θα υπαγονται στον Πατριαρχη Ιεροσολημων.
    So..let them (Roman Orthodox christians) have full and absolute safety for their lives, their temples, their beliefs and to all worship sites currently held within and outside the city.
    The rest of the Christians will come as ordinary pilgrims and subject to the Patriarch of Jerusalem.
    Achtiname (decree) of Capliph Muʿāwiyah ibn ʾAbī Sufyān 658AD
    "This is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them. Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them. No compulsion is to be on them. Neither are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries. No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims' houses. Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God's covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate. No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight. The Muslims are to fight for them. If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray. Their churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants. No one of the nation (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day (end of the world)."
    Achtiname of Muhammad The Prophet

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  17. #17
    toluas's Avatar Banzai jūden-ki
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    Default Re: Preview dHRR 0.8 Hereditary Titles

    Sounds really promising! Wonderful.

  18. #18
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Dομέστικοc
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    Default Re: Preview dHRR 0.8 Hereditary Titles

    Guys i am a great fan of your work here...
    CBUR,Magyar TW and BuTW are creating a mod...
    I wonder if you could contribute a modified version of your title and civil war system!
    Freedom of Faith in Islam.

    Ας εχουν λοιπον, την πληρη και απολυτη ασφαλεια ,οσον αφορα τη ζωη τους ,τους ναους τους , τις πεποιθησεις τους και ολους τους προς προσκυνηση τοπους που κατεχουν τωρα εντος και εκτος της πολης. Οι υπολοιποι χριστιανοι θα ερχονται ως απλοι προσκυνητες και θα υπαγονται στον Πατριαρχη Ιεροσολημων.
    So..let them (Roman Orthodox christians) have full and absolute safety for their lives, their temples, their beliefs and to all worship sites currently held within and outside the city.
    The rest of the Christians will come as ordinary pilgrims and subject to the Patriarch of Jerusalem.
    Achtiname (decree) of Capliph Muʿāwiyah ibn ʾAbī Sufyān 658AD
    "This is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them. Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them. No compulsion is to be on them. Neither are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries. No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims' houses. Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God's covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate. No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight. The Muslims are to fight for them. If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray. Their churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants. No one of the nation (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day (end of the world)."
    Achtiname of Muhammad The Prophet

    Pechenegs are here![click it]

  19. #19
    konny's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Preview dHRR 0.8 Hereditary Titles

    Yes, basicaly no problems. We have yet not reached the South (current progress: France and British Isles finished, Germany under construction).

    Byzantium will become somewhat tricky because she was in the begining of feudalization in 1080; but we will defintily include the "Latin" Byzantine titles. We will also change the already exsisting Byzantine office system to fit it into the new way of offices we will use, such as appointement by click on character, offices that can be inherited, offices that cannot be given to family members but are held by spawned characters, etcpp.

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    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Dομέστικοc
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    Default Re: Preview dHRR 0.8 Hereditary Titles

    Quote Originally Posted by konny View Post
    Yes, basicaly no problems. We have yet not reached the South (current progress: France and British Isles finished, Germany under construction).

    Byzantium will become somewhat tricky because she was in the begining of feudalization in 1080; but we will defintily include the "Latin" Byzantine titles. We will also change the already exsisting Byzantine office system to fit it into the new way of offices we will use, such as appointement by click on character, offices that can be inherited, offices that cannot be given to family members but are held by spawned characters, etcpp.
    We want to use mainly the "Civil" war feature that would lead to a shadow faction's creation...
    I saw that you have some contitions that lead to a civil war or a rebelion..
    A modification of that would intrest us for our new mod...that focus in Italy and balkans in 872-1071...
    Freedom of Faith in Islam.

    Ας εχουν λοιπον, την πληρη και απολυτη ασφαλεια ,οσον αφορα τη ζωη τους ,τους ναους τους , τις πεποιθησεις τους και ολους τους προς προσκυνηση τοπους που κατεχουν τωρα εντος και εκτος της πολης. Οι υπολοιποι χριστιανοι θα ερχονται ως απλοι προσκυνητες και θα υπαγονται στον Πατριαρχη Ιεροσολημων.
    So..let them (Roman Orthodox christians) have full and absolute safety for their lives, their temples, their beliefs and to all worship sites currently held within and outside the city.
    The rest of the Christians will come as ordinary pilgrims and subject to the Patriarch of Jerusalem.
    Achtiname (decree) of Capliph Muʿāwiyah ibn ʾAbī Sufyān 658AD
    "This is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them. Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them. No compulsion is to be on them. Neither are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries. No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims' houses. Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God's covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate. No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight. The Muslims are to fight for them. If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray. Their churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants. No one of the nation (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day (end of the world)."
    Achtiname of Muhammad The Prophet

    Pechenegs are here![click it]

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